Trivia: Less obvious journeys that will become quicker via HS2

Status
Not open for further replies.

PTR 444

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2019
Messages
1,007
Location
Southampton
There’s been a lot of talk recently about how HS2 will lead to journey times becoming quicker for many places nowhere the route. Journeys from the South Coast to Manchester and the North East often spring to mind, but what about the less obvious routes that nobody even considers will be quicker via HS2 because the destination is too far from it?

For example, to get from Birmingham to Cambridge, the direct train takes around 2 hours, 45 minutes. Once HS2 opens, you can shave off the 45 minutes and arrive in London before the direct service has even reached Leicester. From Euston, it’s then only another 90 minutes to get to Cambridge via Thameslink or Great Northern, taking 2 hours 15 minutes in total and saving 30 minutes compared with taking the direct Brum-Cambridge train.

Ideally I am looking for journeys where one of the start/end points is nowhere near the physical HS2 route, and that station is not currently served by trains that will eventually be using HS2.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
Journeys like Milton Keynes - Leeds / Newcastle, with a change at Birmingham International / Interchange.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
20,154
For example, to get from Birmingham to Cambridge, the direct train takes around 2 hours, 45 minutes. Once HS2 opens, you can shave off the 45 minutes and arrive in London before the direct service has even reached Leicester. From Euston, it’s then only another 90 minutes to get to Cambridge via Thameslink or Great Northern, taking 2 hours 15 minutes in total and saving 30 minutes compared with taking the direct Brum-Cambridge train.

I did Cambridge to New Street via London in 1995; it was quicker than going direct because the connections worked. Even now (from the May timetable when Avanti go back to 2 trains/hr to Birmingham) it is doable in 2h22min with a brisk walk from Kings Cross to Euston, or in the normal timetable 2h31 with a leisurely walk.

When HS2 opens, it will be well under 2hrs.
 

agbrs_Jack

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2017
Messages
314
Location
Congleton
Congleton to Birmingham

Not on HS2 obviously, but using the released capacity Congleton will have 2 or even 3 tph, 7 days a week, to Manchester, Stoke, Birmingham or even London.
 
Last edited:
Joined
24 Sep 2017
Messages
190
Berwick to Berwick-upon-Tweed, Three Oaks to Four Oaks, Clapham Junction to Clapham, London Waterloo to Waterloo, Horley and Crawley to Morley and Chorley, and countless other examples. Basically, almost any journey from the south to the north, or vice versa. I expect asking which long distance journeys won’t be speeded up by HS2 would produce a smaller list (depending on your definition of “long distance”).
 

PTR 444

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2019
Messages
1,007
Location
Southampton
Berwick to Berwick-upon-Tweed, Three Oaks to Four Oaks, Clapham Junction to Clapham, London Waterloo to Waterloo, Horley and Crawley to Morley and Chorley, and countless other examples. Basically, almost any journey from the south to the north, or vice versa. I expect asking which long distance journeys won’t be speeded up by HS2 would produce a smaller list (depending on your definition of “long distance”).
By “less obvious”, I was looking for journeys where looking at a map with an overlay of the national rail network, you wouldn’t think would be faster by HS2. Basically any journey where the most direct route does not follow the general HS2 SE - NW axis, such as the Birmingham to Cambridge example I mentioned above. Speaking of that, you could even extend it back to Hereford and it would still be faster via HS2, even compared with going via Oxford.

If that still gives too many examples, another idea might be to look at journeys that will be quicker via HS2 but only by 10 minutes or less.
 
Last edited:

fishwomp

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
145
Location
milton keynes
I think there's a few factors here - which HS2? Which HS2 is actually going to complete and when.

MLK - LDS/NCL - if you change at BHI, it will be a long wait for HS2 - a decade or two, if ever. You need to factor that waiting time in. Maybe Manchester gives a faster route - but again, this isn't approved - just Crewe so far.

HFD - LON - currently 3h06 on direct service a couple of times a day. HFD - BHM is 1h30, add 30 min for change of station and connection and you're at 2h, then 45m to OOC. Add 20m for OOC change of train and run through to central london. Pretty much neck and neck then until Euston opens.

After Euston opens, it'll be 15-20 mins quicker than current. But still, most HFD-LON traffic will be the business person on the through train via Oxford - comfort of one train, no changes and walks - a far more productive journey.
 
Joined
24 Sep 2017
Messages
190
HFD - LON - currently 3h06 on direct service a couple of times a day. HFD - BHM is 1h30, add 30 min for change of station and connection and you're at 2h, then 45m to OOC. Add 20m for OOC change of train and run through to central london. Pretty much neck and neck then until Euston opens.

After Euston opens, it'll be 15-20 mins quicker than current. But still, most HFD-LON traffic will be the business person on the through train via Oxford - comfort of one train, no changes and walks - a far more productive journey.
The quickest journeys for Hereford to London are via Newport. With a good connection, it can be just over 2h30.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
4,301
How about Nottingham to Manchester. Quicker via Birmingham?
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
11,836
Shrewsbury to London. 28 minutes Shrewsbury to Crewe, 10 minute connection, 56 minutes to London. 1 hour 33 total. 2 hours 33 based on the 0639 off Shrewsbury in the May timetable.
 
Joined
24 Sep 2017
Messages
190
By “less obvious”, I was looking for journeys where looking at a map with an overlay of the national rail network, you wouldn’t think would be faster by HS2. Basically any journey where the most direct route does not follow the general HS2 SE - NW axis, such as the Birmingham to Cambridge example I mentioned above. Speaking of that, you could even extend it back to Hereford and it would still be faster via HS2, even compared with going via Oxford.

If that still gives too many examples, another idea might be to look at journeys that will be quicker via HS2 but only by 10 minutes or less.
I see. Nonetheless, people often seem to think “Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds“ when they think fo HS2, and at a push “Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh” but it is worth remembering that it will also benefit all those places in the south east and north that connect via those larger cities.

Anyway, how about Leicester to Liverpool? I haven’t worked out whether Leicester - Birmingham - Liverpool would be quicker than Leicester - Derby - Crewe -Liverpool.
 
Last edited:

FenMan

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2011
Messages
1,064
Pretty much all the journeys from stations in southern England to Birmingham where the current fastest route includes the XC leg between Reading - New Street, typically 1h33m.

Reading - OOC - Birmingham Curzon St ought to be around 1h13m including a 15m transfer at OOC.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
1,706
A slightly more interesting question (IMO) will be what journeys would be quicker by HS2 but ticketing routes will not recognise as an acceptable routing? Reading to Manchester for example, would a ticket permit you to travel via Old Oak rather than a direct service?
 

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
1,738
How about Nottingham to Manchester. Quicker via Birmingham?
Beat me to it. Journey time would be an hour, plus 30 minutes transfer in the worst case. A chord connecting the Western and Eastern arms would open up quite a lot of journeys.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
70,470
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
A slightly more interesting question (IMO) will be what journeys would be quicker by HS2 but ticketing routes will not recognise as an acceptable routing? Reading to Manchester for example, would a ticket permit you to travel via Old Oak rather than a direct service?

It is very likely that HS2 will have its own yield-managed, dynamically-priced, compulsory reservation ticketing system separate from everything else (as TGV does, for example). Thus you'd split anyway.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
11,836
Pretty much all the journeys from stations in southern England to Birmingham where the current fastest route includes the XC leg between Reading - New Street, typically 1h33m.

Reading - OOC - Birmingham Curzon St ought to be around 1h13m including a 15m transfer at OOC.
What about the change at Reading? unless you are assuming a direct train from Basingstoke, Winchester etc... you need to add 7 minutes on to that. It would provide some shift, but I am not convinced many would change twice for the 13 odd minute benefit.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
16,184
Location
Mold, Clwyd
A slightly more interesting question (IMO) will be what journeys would be quicker by HS2 but ticketing routes will not recognise as an acceptable routing? Reading to Manchester for example, would a ticket permit you to travel via Old Oak rather than a direct service?

Chester-Norwich is already quicker via London, but there is no walk-on ticket via London, only "Not London", putting you on EMR via Nottingham.
Avanti has a blind spot for Norfolk it seems (there is a via London fare from Chester to Ipswich and more generally to Essex/Suffolk destinations).
HS2 will knock another chunk off the via London time.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
1,706
Chester-Norwich is already quicker via London, but there is no walk-on ticket via London, only "Not London", putting you on EMR via Nottingham.
Avanti has a blind spot for Norfolk it seems (there is a via London fare from Chester to Ipswich and more generally to Essex/Suffolk destinations).
HS2 will knock another chunk off the via London time.

I imagine East-West rail will also help with that, assuming the Cambridge leg gets built. Hopefully someone will see the potential for a longer distance route (say Bristol-Norwich) which will help divert cross-London traffic away from the tube.
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
1,641
Congleton to Birmingham

Not on HS2 obviously, but using the released capacity Congleton will have 2 or even 3 tph, 7 days a week, to Manchester, Stoke, Birmingham or even London.
Has there been anything official to say that's how the released capacity will be used, or that there will be direct trains beyond Stoke?
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
Has there been anything official to say that's how the released capacity will be used, or that there will be direct trains beyond Stoke?

There have been various service patterns proposed (for business cases etc) and proposals as to what could be done but no firm commitment to anything in particular. (Which is a good thing, keeps choices open for later, especially in an uncertain post-Covid world)
 

FenMan

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2011
Messages
1,064
What about the change at Reading? unless you are assuming a direct train from Basingstoke, Winchester etc... you need to add 7 minutes on to that. It would provide some shift, but I am not convinced many would change twice for the 13 odd minute benefit.

The OOC route should be far more attractive for Berks & Hants passengers starting east of Westbury. It would benefit other passengers who have to change trains at Reading too. As an example, the connection times between the North Downs and XC at Reading can be pretty poor, particularly in the evenings, making the route via OOC more attractive. And if XC persist in running fewer, but longer, trains post-COVID the poor frequency of the directs would also benefit the OOC route.
 

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
1,353
It is very likely that HS2 will have its own yield-managed, dynamically-priced, compulsory reservation ticketing system separate from everything else (as TGV does, for example). Thus you'd split anyway.
Which could well lead to a significant price premium for journeys using a section of HS2, so for the privilege of using a chunk of HS2 to complete a journey that may only save half an hour or so, you may well have to pay 30-50% more than the conventional routing.

Is it likely that there will be more ‘bargain’ advance tickets on existing routes that may ‘compete’ with sections of HS2?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
26,356
Which could well lead to a significant price premium for journeys using a section of HS2, so for the privilege of using a chunk of HS2 to complete a journey that may only save half an hour or so, you may well have to pay 30-50% more than the conventional routing.

Is it likely that there will be more ‘bargain’ advance tickets on existing routes that may ‘compete’ with sections of HS2?
I’ve been thinking for a while there’s some flawed routing assumptions going around. Via Old Oak Common to Coventry is one that springs to mind, and presumably you’d expect to pay more than just the OOC to interchange fare, then time wise a transfer on the people mover to International, then wait for a stopper back to Coventry? Surely that’s why south coast via Reading to Coventry on XC will still happen...
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
Which could well lead to a significant price premium for journeys using a section of HS2, so for the privilege of using a chunk of HS2 to complete a journey that may only save half an hour or so, you may well have to pay 30-50% more than the conventional routing.

Is it likely that there will be more ‘bargain’ advance tickets on existing routes that may ‘compete’ with sections of HS2?

In other words, pretty much exactly like the present Avanti service and fares structure.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
3,100
Location
London
Quite a few things going through Reading would be quicker than changing for a Crosscountry service if you're heading North.
What about the change at Reading? unless you are assuming a direct train from Basingstoke, Winchester etc... you need to add 7 minutes on to that. It would provide some shift, but I am not convinced many would change twice for the 13 odd minute benefit.

I think the eventual intention is for all GWR trains to stop at OOC once built, so no additional changing required. But obviously anything terminating at Reading would require another change and the connections will be key here, as will the relative difference in cost.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
11,836
Quite a few things going through Reading would be quicker than changing for a Crosscountry service if you're heading North.


I think the eventual intention is for all GWR trains to stop at OOC once built, so no additional changing required. But obviously anything terminating at Reading would require another change and the connections will be key here, as will the relative difference in cost.
What I was challenging was the current trend of binning XC services off. If you are going north from Basingstoke or any of the other stations south of there, its two changes.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
3,100
Location
London
What I was challenging was the current trend of binning XC services off. If you are going north from Basingstoke or any of the other stations south of there, its two changes.

I see, I still think that "central spine" of services will be of use and merit and agree not going to be worth the extra hassle - or money. It might even be able to do more intermediate stops, although they aren't many major settlements the XC doesn't already call at.
 

PTR 444

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2019
Messages
1,007
Location
Southampton
I see, I still think that "central spine" of services will be of use and merit and agree not going to be worth the extra hassle - or money. It might even be able to do more intermediate stops, although they aren't many major settlements the XC doesn't already call at.
Didcot and Eastleigh may be of merit to serve, but I doubt anywhere else on the route is big enough to warrant an extra call.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
3,100
Location
London
Didcot and Eastleigh may be of merit to serve, but I doubt anywhere else on the route is big enough to warrant an extra call.

Yeah Didcot was the one I was thinking of, although that becomes mildly more difficult as services wouldn't be able to use the avoiding line any more.
 

D6975

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
2,429
Location
Bristol
Chester-Norwich is already quicker via London, but there is no walk-on ticket via London, only "Not London", putting you on EMR via Nottingham.
Avanti has a blind spot for Norfolk it seems (there is a via London fare from Chester to Ipswich and more generally to Essex/Suffolk destinations).
HS2 will knock another chunk off the via London time.


oh yes there is
 

Attachments

  • ctrnrw.png
    ctrnrw.png
    409.8 KB · Views: 34
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top