Trivia: Lines proposed but never built (or where a line should have been built)

[AY1975]

Not sure if this has ever been discussed on here before, but can you think of any examples of:

(a) Lines that were proposed but never built.

(b) Lines that were never proposed as far as you know, but where you think a railway line could, and should, have been built.

Maybe there should be separate threads for each of these, but I can think of an example that kind of fits both categories.

I believe that when the District Railway (now District Line) extension to Wimbledon was being planned in the 1880s, there was a scheme to build a line from East Putney to Roehampton (not sure whether this would have been as well as or instead of the Wimbledon line).

If such a line had been built, I think it should have had an intermediate station at Putney Heath, and could have been extended beyond Roehampton to Kingston, either via Kingston Vale or via Petersham and Ham Common. These are all areas not served by rail, and where the only public transport is the bus. Also, it would have provided a direct rail service between Putney and Kingston without having to cross the Thames twice.

Such a service could either have operated from Waterloo via the Point Pleasant Junction-East Putney spur, or as a branch of the District Line.

However, planning permission could have been a problem, as it would have presumably meant either building the line across, or a tunnel under, Richmond Park.

More recently, I seem to recall that in about 1990, the then Transport Secretary Cecil Parkinson proposed an extension of the Hammersmith & City Line southwards from Hammersmith to Barnes and Roehampton - again that would have helped to reduce traffic congestion on Hammersmith Bridge, but unfortunately that scheme never saw the light of day. Not sure about the practicalities of it, though: I guess it would have either had to be on a viaduct (which might have required some houses to be demolished) or they would have had to build a tunnel.

 

[Clansman]

Im keen to avoid suggesting closed lines, as there's lots I could mention.

I do think that had a line been built connecting Fort William to Inverness, it would be very popular today. However, as far as constructing it goes economics would blow it way out of the water.

 

[al78]

Im keen to avoid suggesting closed lines, as there's lots I could mention.

I do think that had a line been built connecting Fort William to Inverness, it would be very popular today. However, as far as constructing it goes economics would blow it way out of the water.

Are there any engineering challenges? It doesn't look that difficult at first glance on a map to construct a line through the glen following the A86 past loch Laggan, connecting to the existing lines at Tulloch and Newtonmore.

I'm surprised one wasn't built in the past, I'd have thought there would be some demand for those living near Fort William to travel to Inverness (and vice versa). It might even be a suitable alternative route if the Drumochter pass gets blocked by snow in the winter (assuming that ever happens).

 

[nw1]

Haslemere to Midhurst? (proposed: see 'Branch lines around Midhurst', Mitchell and Smith).

This could have given a more direct route from London to Chichester, and I suspect Midhurst station and the line from there to Chichester would never have been closed.

Assuming London to Haslemere around 50 minutes this could have allowed a London to Chichester journey to be perhaps around 1hr15-1hr20 with limited stops, 10-15 minutes faster than the current timings. This could have then continued to Portsmouth via Emsworth.

Connecting curves at Dorchester to allow trains from Bournemouth area to head up towards Yeovil, and at Yeovil to allow trains from the Weymouth direction (and, via the first curve, Bournemouth and points east) to head towards Exeter? Bournemouth to Exeter is currently very indirect indeed by rail.

On that theme, Bournemouth to Salisbury direct, via Ringwood and Fordingbridge. (Yes, there was a line some of the way but it was never a direct Bournemouth Salisbury line).

Salisbury to Pewsey via the Avon valley, allowing Salisbury to Swindon if the Marlborough route had not been closed?

 

[A0wen]

Not sure if this has ever been discussed on here before, but can you think of any examples of:

(a) Lines that were proposed but never built.

(b) Lines that were never proposed as far as you know, but where you think a railway line could, and should, have been built.

Maybe there should be separate threads for each of these, but I can think of an example that kind of fits both categories.

I believe that when the District Railway (now District Line) extension to Wimbledon was being planned in the 1880s, there was a scheme to build a line from East Putney to Roehampton (not sure whether this would have been as well as or instead of the Wimbledon line).

If such a line had been built, I think it should have had an intermediate station at Putney Heath, and could have been extended beyond Roehampton to Kingston, either via Kingston Vale or via Petersham and Ham Common. These are all areas not served by rail, and where the only public transport is the bus. Also, it would have provided a direct rail service between Putney and Kingston without having to cross the Thames twice.

Such a service could either have operated from Waterloo via the Point Pleasant Junction-East Putney spur, or as a branch of the District Line.

However, planning permission could have been a problem, as it would have presumably meant either building the line across, or a tunnel under, Richmond Park.

More recently, I seem to recall that in about 1990, the then Transport Secretary Cecil Parkinson proposed an extension of the Hammersmith & City Line southwards from Hammersmith to Barnes and Roehampton - again that would have helped to reduce traffic congestion on Hammersmith Bridge, but unfortunately that scheme never saw the light of day. Not sure about the practicalities of it, though: I guess it would have either had to be on a viaduct (which might have required some houses to be demolished) or they would have had to build a tunnel.

The Bushey extension of the Northern Line (together with the Northern Heights plan). Ditched in the aftermath of WW2 - but would have been of use now.

 

[High Dyke]

I seem to recall from old maps that it was proposed to route the ECML North from Grantham on an alignment utilising Gonerby Tunnel (as used by the Nottingham / Skegness trains) towards Allington Jn and then heading off towards Newark from there. However as we know it was then built on the present alignment further east.

 

[edwin_m]

The Bushey extension of the Northern Line (together with the Northern Heights plan). Ditched in the aftermath of WW2 - but would have been of use now.

Wouldn't that also have required abandoning the Green Belt, and changing the M1 alignment which allegedly cut through the tunnels?

 

[Dr_Paul]

I believe that when the District Railway (now District Line) extension to Wimbledon was being planned in the 1880s, there was a scheme to build a line from East Putney to Roehampton (not sure whether this would have been as well as or instead of the Wimbledon line).

If such a line had been built, I think it should have had an intermediate station at Putney Heath, and could have been extended beyond Roehampton to Kingston, either via Kingston Vale or via Petersham and Ham Common. These are all areas not served by rail, and where the only public transport is the bus. Also, it would have provided a direct rail service between Putney and Kingston without having to cross the Thames twice. Such a service could either have operated from Waterloo via the Point Pleasant Junction-East Putney spur, or as a branch of the District Line.

However, planning permission could have been a problem, as it would have presumably meant either building the line across, or a tunnel under, Richmond Park.

This would have required a lot of tunnelling. There is Putney Hill to the west of the line at Putney (the short tunnel south of East Putney goes through its eastern spur) which would require a tunnel of a mile or so; it is far too steep for any normal railway. Any station at Roehampton, which only became more than a tiny village in the late 1950s, would have required lifts. This tunnel would have emerged in Roehampton Vale, pretty much uninhabited until the 1930s and not much developed even now, then another tunnel, again of a mile or more, to get through Kingston Hill, which is pretty steep from all approaches.

The only routes from Putney to Kingston that do not need hefty tunnelling are either via Wimbledon, as one would travel today on the District, changing at Wimbledon on to SWT; or along the Thames via Richmond. The latter would then face the fun of getting permission to build along the narrow riverside at Richmond and through picturesque Petersham-- good luck with that!

 

[Malcolmffc]

The Croxley rail link

 

[Dr_Paul]

More recently, I seem to recall that in about 1990, the then Transport Secretary Cecil Parkinson proposed an extension of the Hammersmith & City Line southwards from Hammersmith to Barnes and Roehampton - again that would have helped to reduce traffic congestion on Hammersmith Bridge, but unfortunately that scheme never saw the light of day. Not sure about the practicalities of it, though: I guess it would have either had to be on a viaduct (which might have required some houses to be demolished) or they would have had to build a tunnel.

A nice idea -- but... Hammersmith Flyover would get in the way of a viaduct from the H+C station. Tunnelling under the Thames would be possible (although this would mean also going under the District and Piccadilly), and there was at that time vacant land (now used by the wetlands centre) and sports fields down to Barnes Common. Whether anything above ground would be allowed on the common is a moot point. The hill from the South Circular Road is fairly steep, even for an underground train, and much of it is built on. West of Castlenau through Barnes is a solidly built-up area. A route from Barnes Common following Beverley Brook to Roehampton would be less hilly, except for the last half-mile, but property around there was even then pretty expensive.

 

[HullMichael]

A Light Railway was proposed between Beverley on the Hull-Scarborough line and the village of North Frodingham, but was never built.

Curiously the line is clearly shown as existing on the tile maps which still exist at some former NER stations.

 

[reddragon]

Too wide a subject as they number in 1000's

Maybe stick to proposed, approved & started but not finished?

eg

Edgware to Bushey Heath
Chessington South to Leatherhead

etc

 

[Grinner]

I’ve got an old copy of Black’s Guide to Scotland (about 1911 I think) that has a map that appears to show a proposed line from Arrochar to St. Catherines on Loch Long, which would presumably act as a railhead (via boat) for Inveraray directly across the loch. I’ve not been able to find out any more about this, it may be some sort of misprint, as the route goes over the Rest and Be Thankful pass, so the gradient would be mental.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One of the more obvious lines never built was Abergavenny to Brecon along the easy railway-building territory of the Usk Valley. The Monmouthshire and Brecon Canal successfully fought off any proposals, and Brecon was poorly served by the tortuous B & M from Dowlais instead. One wonders if the line had been built, Brecon might have still have railway services today.

 

[james60059]

There was a Hinckley - Stoke Golding connection but I understand it was abandoned before it officially opened. Part of the embankment can still be seen alongside the A5 where the current Nuneaton - Leicester line passes over.

 

[backontrack]

The Great North of Scotland Railway never reached Inverness - its tracks ended at Elgin (and at Broomhill, from which it had running powers to Aviemore).

However, it made several campaigns to clout its rival, the Highland Railway (operators of the mainline from Inverness to Keith) by proposing forays into Wester Ross and Sutherland, which it would construct and run. However, part of the deal included running powers over the Highland Railway west of Elgin. The Highland always managed to fight off these proposals - and they were turned down. Latterly, they proposed branches themselves which never opened.

Clachnaharry-Lochend on Loch Ness
Conon Bridge-Cromarty
Garve-Ullapool
Achnasheen-Aultbea via Gairloch and Poolewe
Fearn-Portmahomack
Culrain-Lochinver
Lairg-Laxford Bridge
Forsinard-Portskerra via Melvich
Thurso-Scrabster
Thurso-Gills Bay via Castletown
Lybster-Dunbeath to connect with the Wick and Lybster Light Railway
Kyleakin-Torrin via Broadford
Stornoway-Carloway

The Scrabster Line should probably be open today, but Laxford Bridge seems just plain daft to me.

One of these proposals nearly came about. Six miles of track had been laid from Cromarty onwards when WWI started. That put paid to any ideas of connecting it to the railway.

 

[shredder1]

Middleton Lancs to Crumpsall, Lancashire, I have copies of the plans, and they were passed by parliament, submitted by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company but never was built

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I remember hearing at one time that the Holmfirth branch was mooted to continue southward in a tunnel beneath Holme Moss before connecting with the Woodhead line at Crowden. Not sure if much (or any) preparatory work was carried out.

Likewise the Midland's Kirkburton line was originally intended to continue to Barnsley but never did. The circuitous route taken around Huddersfield would've limited the speed of the line though- the L&Y Clayton West branch would be a better option with all tunnels and bridges engineered for double track (though only one was layed).

 

[2HAP]

Authorised, but not built:-
Headcorn and Maidstone Junction Light Railway (Maidstone West - Tovil (21 chains) only opened to freight)
Cranbrook and Tenterden Light Railway (Tenterden (now Rolvenden) - Tenterden Town opened, now part of K&ESR heritage railway)
Ouse Valley Light Railway.
Southern Heights Light Railway
Mid-Suffolk Light Railway Extension (Kenton - Debenham opened for freight but soon abandoned)

 

[markindurham]

Middleton-in-Teesdale to Alston was mooted at one point. Would have been some serious engineering work to achieve it.

 

[topydre]

The Llanidloes-Strata Florida section of the Manchester & Milford Railway. Built from Llanidloes to Llangurig, but they didn't have enough money to build the tunnels onwards to Strata Florida (and thence Milford via Lampeter). The Llangurig branch only ever saw one service train!

The northern part of the line (Penbontbren Jn - Llangurig) was dismantled, and the southern version (Carmarthen - Strata Florida) connected only to the pre-planned branch to Aberystwyth (though Aberystwyth services were planned to be from the Llanidloes direction originally)

 

[AY1975]

AFAIK there were never any plans to extend the Windermere branch beyond Windermere.

Extending it westwards would probably have been a no-no because of Lake Windermere, but maybe it could have been extended northwards to Keswick with an intermediate station at Grasmere (and possibly also at Ambleside and Thirlmere).

It would have been good for tourism, and could also potentially have provided another diversionary route for the WCML. Not sure how practicable it would have been to build, though.

The Lake District has never been very well served by railways, even when you had the Penrith-Keswick-Workington line and the present day Lakeside & Haverthwaite Railway ran through to Ulverston.

 

[Zamracene749]

Proposed, approved, built, partly electrified but never used (unless you count the Big Gun)-

Monkseaton to Seaton Sluice- http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/collywell_bay/index.shtml

 

[backontrack]

AFAIK there were never any plans to extend the Windermere branch beyond Windermere.

Extending it westwards would probably have been a no-no because of Lake Windermere, but maybe it could have been extended northwards to Keswick with an intermediate station at Grasmere (and possibly also at Ambleside and Thirlmere).

It would have been good for tourism, and could also potentially have provided another diversionary route for the WCML. Not sure how practicable it would have been to build, though.

The Lake District has never been very well served by railways, even when you had the Penrith-Keswick-Workington line and the present day Lakeside & Haverthwaite Railway ran through to Ulverston.

Ambleside would certainly have had a station.

 

[47271]

Are there any engineering challenges? It doesn't look that difficult at first glance on a map to construct a line through the glen following the A86 past loch Laggan, connecting to the existing lines at Tulloch and Newtonmore.

I'm surprised one wasn't built in the past, I'd have thought there would be some demand for those living near Fort William to travel to Inverness (and vice versa). It might even be a suitable alternative route if the Drumochter pass gets blocked by snow in the winter (assuming that ever happens).

Funnily enough, a railway was built from Fort William to Inverness in the very recent past! The story got quite a bit of coverage in Scotland in the spring and early summer.

A quick search yielded this update.

https://www.railwaymagazinemodelling.co.uk/biggest-little-railway-makes-it/

Biggest Little Railway makes it!
7th August 2017

The Biggest Little Railway in the World successfully reached its destination in Inverness after travelling 72 miles along the Great Glen Way over a fortnight at the end of June and the beginning of July for a TV programme that will be aired in the autumn.

“We at Inverness & District Model Railway Club were approached some months ago to see if we would become involved. We all had our doubts, as at that time they had not surveyed the terrain and also, being midge time, were setting themselves a task and a half,” says Gerry Parks, club secretary of the Inverness and District Model Railway Club.

“They overcame a mountain of difficulties as some of the terrain is very steep, hence the need for carpenters/engineers to assist. Four teams of track layers were involved, each laying the next section as they progressed along the route. The track was moulded plastic in three-metre lengths. With more than 100 volunteers involved from Fort William to Inverness, it certainly is a milestone achievement,” he said.

 

[AY1975]

This would have required a lot of tunnelling. There is Putney Hill to the west of the line at Putney (the short tunnel south of East Putney goes through its eastern spur) which would require a tunnel of a mile or so; it is far too steep for any normal railway. Any station at Roehampton, which only became more than a tiny village in the late 1950s, would have required lifts. This tunnel would have emerged in Roehampton Vale, pretty much uninhabited until the 1930s and not much developed even now, then another tunnel, again of a mile or more, to get through Kingston Hill, which is pretty steep from all approaches.

The only routes from Putney to Kingston that do not need hefty tunnelling are either via Winbledon, as one would travel today on the District, changing at Wimbledon on to SWT; or along the Thames via Richmond. The latter would then face the fun of getting permission to build along the narrow riverside at Richmond and through picturesque Petersham-- good luck with that!

Do you think a tunnel under Putney Hill would have been steeper than the 1 in 27 of the Merseyrail tunnel into James Street station (which I believe is the steepest gradient on any passenger line on Network Rail)?

If it were doable, I would think the tunnel could have emerged near the Green Man pub on Putney Heath (with maybe a station there), and the line could then have continued across Putney Heath to Roehampton either at ground level or in a cutting. Roehampton station could have been located either near the top of Dover House Road, or near where Roehampton Lane curves round and heads towards Barnes.

Getting planning consent to build a line across Putney Heath would probably have been an issue, though.

 

[AY1975]

A nice idea -- but... Hammersmith Flyover would get in the way of a viaduct from the H+C station. Tunnelling under the Thames would be possible (although this would mean also going under the District and Piccadilly), and there was at that time vacant land (now used by the wetlands centre) and sports fields down to Barnes Common. Whether anything above ground would be allowed on the common is a moot point. The hill from the South Circular Road is fairly steep, even for an underground train, and much of it is built on. West of Castlenau through Barnes is a solidly built-up area. A route from Barnes Common following Beverley Brook to Roehampton would be less hilly, except for the last half-mile, but property around there was even then pretty expensive.

If the line had to be in tunnel, then maybe it would have made more sense to build it as a branch of the Piccadilly Line, as building Tube sized tunnel bores would cause much less disruption (and is presumably a lot cheaper) than building cut-and-cover tunnels.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Do you think a tunnel under Putney Hill would have been steeper than the 1 in 27 of the Merseyrail tunnel into James Street station (which I believe is the steepest gradient on any passenger line on Network Rail)?

If it were doable, I would think the tunnel could have emerged near the Green Man pub on Putney Heath (with maybe a station there), and the line could then have continued across Putney Heath to Roehampton either at ground level or in a cutting. Roehampton station could have been located either near the top of Dover House Road, or near where Roehampton Lane curves round and heads towards Barnes.

Getting planning consent to build a line across Putney Heath would probably have been an issue, though.

By chance I had a look at Alan Jackson's London's Local Railways yesterday, and there was a line planned to go from Putney Bridge to Surbiton with a station at Tibbet's Corner, just along from the Green Man. The hill at Putney rises about 100' in half a mile, so it would be a bit of tall order for a train. It's certainly quite a puff on a bike, as are the hill down to Roehampton Vale and both sides of Kingston Hill.

 

[Clansman]

Blairgowrie needs a rail link, no question about it. A 10 mile extension to branch off from Stanley Junction to Blairgowrie, along with stations in both Stanley and Blairgowrie, and possibly another one at Inveralmond, would transform public transport in Perthshire and would benefit the local economy massively.

 

[47271]

Blairgowrie needs a rail link, no question about it. A 10 mile extension to branch off from Stanley Junction to Blairgowrie, along with stations in both Stanley and Blairgowrie, and possibly another one at Inveralmond, would transform public transport in Perthshire and would benefit the local economy massively.

An interesting idea, but maybe off topic? Blair had a branch from Coupar Angus - the terminus site was pretty much where Tesco is now - so doesn't satisfy this thread. But I agree that the place could do with a big perk up, it's become the backwater of Perthshire.

Presumably your new route would follow the old Caledonian main line from Stanley to beyond the Tay crossing, and then head there directly rather than via Coupar?