Trivia: Longest distance between any two London terminals?

[Denzo]

Suppose I wish to travel between two London terminals but I’m constrained by not being allowed to use the tube, buses, walk, use a taxi or any other form of transport other than national rail.

For example, if travelling between Victoria and Waterloo, then the fastest acceptable route is to go down to Clapham Junction, change there and then head back up.

What’s the most ridiculous route that would need to be taken between any two of the terminals? Are there any that are impossible to travel between without leaving the national rail network?

 

[Lockwood]

I suppose one key question is whether this is to be done on valid tickets (longest single fare distance), or using an ALR or similar to allow you to more freedom of movement (longest track route)

 

[Denzo]

I suppose one key question is whether this is to be done on valid tickets (longest single fare distance), or using an ALR or similar to allow you to more freedom of movement (longest track route)

Don’t care about tickets, just the fastest national rail only route between any two terminals

 

[yorkie]

What’s the most ridiculous route that would need to be taken between any two of the terminals?

Can you clarify? are you stating that if you measure the shortest route wholly by National Rail (excluding non-rail modes) or the fastest journey by the same criteria, from every terminal to every other terminal, which terminals are the furthest apart by this method?

And do you define London Terminals as all members of the fares group of that name?

 

[Kite159]

I'm sure something like this came up a few months ago.

Off the top of my head it might be something silly like Paddington - Fenchurch Street using National Rail services.

 

[Denzo]

Can you clarify? are you stating that if you measure the shortest route wholly by National Rail (excluding non-rail modes) or the fastest journey by the same criteria, from every terminal to every other terminal, which terminals are the furthest apart by this method?

And do you define London Terminals as all members of the fares group of that name?

Yes and yes. I’ll say fastest in terms of time as opposed to miles travelled.

 

[Mag_seven]

Off the top of my head it might be something silly like Paddington - Fenchurch Street using National Rail services.

I would imagine that would be something like Paddington-Reading-Richmond-Gospel Oak-Barking-Fenchurch St.

 

[Kite159]

I would imagine that would be something like Paddington-Reading-Richmond-Gospel Oak-Barking-Fenchurch St.

Maybe Paddington to Kings Cross/Moorgate.

Although that might be something like Paddington - Reading - Clapham Junction - Denmark Hill - St Pancras - Finsbury Park - Kings Cross/Moorgate

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Not sure if I quite get this....

Charing Cross to Cannon Street (shortest?)

London Bridge (Low Level terminus) to Brighton and back to Victoria?

Charing Cross to Hastings (via Tonbridge) and return to Victoria via Eastbourne and Gatwick?

Charing Cross to Hastings (via Tonbridge), then Coastway to Portsmouth Harbour via Brighton and then Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo?

 

[Taunton]

Probably involves Marylebone, which doesn't connect to anything else until Oxford. Getting to Fenchurch Street would probably be a contender.

It's not an unreasonable quandry. Cecil J Allen, longstanding railway book writer, was granted a Gold Pass by British Rail. On arriving at Glasgow Central in the 1970s (before the various suburban lines reopened since) he said the cheapest way to his hotel at Queen Street station was not 10 minutes in a taxi, but train to Edinburgh and back. Which he did.

 

[Denzo]

Not sure if I quite get this....

Charing Cross to Cannon Street (shortest?)

London Bridge (Low Level terminus) to Brighton and back to Victoria?

Charing Cross to Hastings (via Tonbridge) and return to Victoria via Eastbourne and Gatwick?

Charing Cross to Hastings (via Tonbridge), then Coastway to Portsmouth Harbour via Brighton and then Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo?

London Bridge to Victoria could be done through East Croydon, you don’t need to go all the way to Brighton.

Charing Cross to Waterloo/Victoria could be done via changes at London Bridge, East Croydon and (in the case of Waterloo) Clapham Junction, no need to be going anywhere near Portsmouth.

 

[Kite159]

Not sure if I quite get this....

Charing Cross to Cannon Street (shortest?)

London Bridge (Low Level terminus) to Brighton and back to Victoria?

Charing Cross to Hastings (via Tonbridge) and return to Victoria via Eastbourne and Gatwick?

Charing Cross to Hastings (via Tonbridge), then Coastway to Portsmouth Harbour via Brighton and then Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo?

London Bridge low level towards Victoria has a direct service via Crystal Palace, or going via Peckham, changing at Streatham Common

 

[Kite159]

Probably involves Marylebone, which doesn't connect to anything else until Oxford. Getting to Fenchurch Street would probably be a contender.

It's not an unreasonable quandry. Cecil J Allen, longstanding railway book writer, was granted a Gold Pass by British Rail. On arriving at Glasgow Central in the 1970s (before the various suburban lines reopened since) he said the cheapest way to his hotel at Queen Street station was not 10 minutes in a taxi, but train to Edinburgh and back. Which he did.

Only if you discount the daily service from Ruislip towards Paddington.

 

[Denzo]

Probably involves Marylebone, which doesn't connect to anything else until Oxford. Getting to Fenchurch Street would probably be a contender.

It's not an unreasonable quandry. Cecil J Allen, longstanding railway book writer, was granted a Gold Pass by British Rail. On arriving at Glasgow Central in the 1970s (before the various suburban lines reopened since) he said the cheapest way to his hotel at Queen Street station was not 10 minutes in a taxi, but train to Edinburgh and back. Which he did.

Not sure why he didn’t just change at one of the suburban Glasgow stations with services to both Central and Queen Street (Partick?)

 

[Mag_seven]

Not sure why he didn’t just change at one of the suburban Glasgow stations with services to both Central and Queen Street (Partick?)

This was prior to the Argyle line reopening (1979).

 

[Harshil]

Suppose I wish to travel between two London terminals but I’m constrained by not being allowed to use the tube, buses, walk, use a taxi or any other form of transport other than national rail.

For example, if travelling between Victoria and Waterloo, then the fastest acceptable route is to go down to Clapham Junction, change there and then head back up.

What’s the most ridiculous route that would need to be taken between any two of the terminals? Are there any that are impossible to travel between without leaving the national rail network?

Frenchurch street and the C2C line is separated from the rest of the network from what I know. You'll have to use London Overground or Underground services to change at Upminster for example. I guess overground from Barking does count I guess.

The london overground really means you can travel between most mainline termini pretty easily. Euston heading out to Willesden Junction for example or clapham junction in south London.

If you are looking the longest it'll likely obviously be going up the WCML to Scotland and coming back on the ECML. But you can make this loop longer by heading towards Exeter from Waterloo first then going up Crosscountry to the WCML.

I'm sure you can leave London Bridge travel around the UK coastline getting on and off changing at places like Margate Brighton Southampton and Bournemouth coming back via Norwich to Liverpool Street.

 

[Denzo]

Frenchurch street and the C2C line is separated from the rest of the network from what I know. You'll have to use London Overground or Underground services to change at Upminster for example. I guess overground from Barking does count I guess.

The london overground really means you can travel between most mainline termini pretty easily. Euston heading out to Willesden Junction for example or clapham junction in south London.

If you are looking the longest it'll likely obviously be going up the WCML to Scotland and coming back on the ECML. But you can make this loop longer by heading towards Exeter from Waterloo first then going up Crosscountry to the WCML.

I'm sure you can leave London Bridge travel around the UK coastline getting on and off changing at places like Margate Brighton Southampton and Bournemouth coming back via Norwich to Liverpool Street.

You misunderstand, I’m looking for which two London terminals are the furthest apart in terms of the most direct NR only route.

Perhaps we could make this more interesting by excluding the overground.

 

[si404]

Frenchurch street and the C2C line is separated from the rest of the network from what I know. You'll have to use London Overground or Underground services to change at Upminster for example. I guess overground from Barking does count I guess.

So you reject changing at Upminster due to Overground, but allow it at Barking?

Assuming no Out of Station Interchanges (eg walking Waterloo-Waterloo East, and especially not Marylebone - Paddington) things look lengthy for Marylebone. I'm assuming the more frequent fast trains via East Croydon would be quicker than half-hourly stoppers.

1 change
Marylebone - S Ruislip - Paddington

2 changes
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Waterloo
Marylebone - Leamington Spa - Coventry - Euston

4 changes
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Clapham Junction - Victoria

5 changes
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - St Pancras
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Richmond - Highbury & Islington - Moorgate

6 changes
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Richmond - Highbury & Islington - Finsbury Park - Kings Cross
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Richmond - Gospel Oak - Barking - Fenchurch Street
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge - Cannon Street
Marylebone - Oxford - Reading - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge - Charing Cross

 

[Harshil]

You misunderstand, I’m looking for which two London terminals are the furthest apart in terms of the most direct NR only route.

Perhaps we could make this more interesting by excluding the overground.

I think I get you by direct only! Furthest but also quickest. Erm... I agree with Marylebone and Frenchurch Street. That seems impossible without like at least 3-4 changes.

 

[si404]

Fenchurch Street is similarly bad:

2 changes
Fenchurch Street - Stratford - Liverpool Street

4 changes
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Willesden Junction - Euston
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - Waterloo
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - Victoria
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Highbury & Islington - Moorgate

5 changes
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - St Pancras
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Highbury & Islington - Finsbury Park - Kings Cross
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Richmond - Reading - Paddington

6 changes
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge - Charing Cross
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge - Cannon Street
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Richmond - Reading - Oxford - Marylebone

 

[TheDavibob]

Fenchurch Street is similarly bad:

2 changes
Fenchurch Street - Stratford - Liverpool Street

4 changes
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Willesden Junction - Euston
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - Waterloo
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - Victoria
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Highbury & Islington - Moorgate

5 changes
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - St Pancras
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Highbury & Islington - Finsbury Park - Kings Cross
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Richmond - Reading - Paddington

6 changes
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge - Charing Cross
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge - Cannon Street
Fenchurch Street - Barking - Gospel Oak - Richmond - Reading - Oxford - Marylebone

Whilst certainly not quick, doesn't the ability to go from Stratford to the various NLL destinations (and Clapham Junction) directly technically reduce the minimum required connections for most of these (using the GOBLIN)?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t think you can logically disregard LO services given how much time we collectively expend justifying that it is part of the national rail network...

 

[Kite159]

Whilst certainly not quick, doesn't the ability to go from Stratford to the various NLL destinations (and Clapham Junction) directly technically reduce the minimum required connections for most of these (using the GOBLIN)?

Is there anything booked to go the direct route from Fenchurch Street to Stratford?

Although you can access Stratford by changing at Barking and using the route taken by the weekend Liverpool Street services which can reduce the number of changes for some

 

[satisnek]

It's going to be something like King's Cross - Paddington isn't it? You can't go anywhere west from King's Cross until you get to Peterborough.

 

[si404]

Whilst certainly not quick, doesn't the ability to go from Stratford to the various NLL destinations (and Clapham Junction) directly technically reduce the minimum required connections for most of these (using the GOBLIN)?

You're quite right. Drop a change for all them, replacing Barking - Gospel Oak with Stratford.

Is there anything booked to go the direct route from Fenchurch Street to Stratford?

It's marked on the London map as limited service. But if not, then I've done all the routes save Liverpool Street (which is change at Barking).

It's going to be something like King's Cross - Paddington isn't it? You can't go anywhere west from King's Cross until you get to Peterborough.

Unless you change at Finsbury Park and head back south, changing again to head west.

As such, Marylebone-Kings Cross is worse as you can't get onto the Chiltern line further 'up' than Oxford or Leamington Spa (other than South Ruislip, but that only gives you Paddington, from which you have to go down to Reading - so you might as well go via Oxford anyway).

 

[USBT]

It's going to be something like King's Cross - Paddington isn't it? You can't go anywhere west from King's Cross until you get to Peterborough.

Playing my Joker here, the North Downs Line, gets you 3 changes/4 trains.

King’s Cross-Finsbury Park-Redhill-Reading-Paddington

That also gets you Marylebone-St. Pancras in 3 changes (Marylebone-Oxford-Reading-Redhill-St. Pancras)

 

[TheDavibob]

To add, looking at minimal connections doesn't necessarily give short routes. If Fenchurch Street to Stratford is permitted, then Stratford to Cambridge is probably also permitted (reasonably common rerouting, and I think a couple of booked regular services), which allows just two changes (well, three services) to Kings Cross and every Thameslink terminus. It's not very direct, though.

 

[DarloRich]

i will get a cab.................

 

[61653 HTAFC]

i will get a cab.................

Where's the fun in that?

 

[bb21]

Where's the fun in that?

Spending the time saved in a pub.