Trivia: Most changes required between two stations operated by the same TOC

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by greatkingrat, 12 May 2015.

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  1. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    Once LOROL take over the West Anglia services it will require a minimum of 3 changes to get from Emerson Park to South Hampstead, despite them being run by the same TOC and only about 20 miles from each other.

    I can see a few other examples of three changes, but is there any pair of stations that are four or more changes apart, and both operated by the same TOC?
     
  2. Simon11

    Simon11 Member Jobs & Careers Assistant

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    Stranraer STR to Wick WCK will get you four changes, although one is on the bus in Glasgow
     
  3. GrimsbyPacer

    GrimsbyPacer Established Member

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    Grimsby Docks-Grimsby Town-Manchester Piccadilly-Middlesbrough-Whitby.
    That's 3 changes in Northernland minimum.
     
  4. IrishDave

    IrishDave Member

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    Hmm. The answer does rather depend on how you count interchanging between different nearby stations. This example is moot, since it's doable in three (Glasgow Central, Edinburgh, Inverness) if you go via Shotts.

    But take, for example, Stourbridge Town to St Albans Abbey. Change at Stourbridge Junction, walk Moor Street-New Street, change at Watford Junction. Is that three or four changes?

    The answer also depends on whether you can use other TOCs en route. Take Burscough Junction-Whitby - minimum three changes at Preston, York and Middlesbrough, but that's using TPE between York and Middlesbrough. To do it on Northern you have to do Preston, Carlisle, Newcastle and Middlesbrough (unless there's a Carlisle-Middlesbrough through service that I don't know about).

    The answer can also depend on the time of day - at certain times when the Marlow branch is running with a shuttle between Bourne End and Marlow, it can take four changes to get from Marlow to, say, Falmouth (Bourne End, Maidenhead, Reading, Truro).
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2015
  5. JamesRowden

    JamesRowden Established Member

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    There's Brading (Isle of White) to Earley. The journey planner comes up with two possible routes, each requiring 4 changes:
    • Brading - Ryde Pier Head - Portsmouth Harbour - Southampton Central - Reading - Earley
    • Brading - Ryde Pier Head - Portsmouth Harbour - Guildford - Wokingham - Earley
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2015
  6. IrishDave

    IrishDave Member

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    That's possible with three changes at Ryde Pier Head, Portsmouth Harbour and Clapham Junction, though that will take longer (and may or may not be a permitted route). EDIT: I didn't realise how few direct trains there are between Portsmouth Harbour and Clapham Junction! It's still possible via Waterloo, though.
     
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  7. JamesRowden

    JamesRowden Established Member

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    Via Clapham Junction doesn't seem to be a valid route when tested on journey planners.
     
  8. GrimsbyPacer

    GrimsbyPacer Established Member

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    Thanks, I was unsure if I was just to use the stations or the services. Nice map too.
    TransPennine's is just 1 change needed to get from Manchester Picaddilly to Manchester Victoria changing at Leeds :)
    East Midlands' is Grimsby Town-Lincoln-Nottingham-Derby-Crewe with 3 changes.
    Like TPE, Cross Country needs just 1 from anywhere.
    Merseyrail has Ormskirk-Liverpool Central-Liverpool Lime Street at 2.
     
  9. IrishDave

    IrishDave Member

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    Brading (IoW) to Lymington Pier works, though: requires four changes at Ryde Pier Head, Portsmouth Harbour, Southampton Central and Brockenhurst. :D
     
  10. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Baildon - Barton on Humber

    Very very dodgy three changes: Bradford (walk), Manchester (walk), Grimsby Town.

    Depending on your methodology, this may well count as more.

    With no walks permitted, you are looking at four changes minimum: Shipley, Leeds, Doncaster, Grimsby Town.
     
  11. northern156

    northern156 Member

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    2N40 1528 Carlisle - Middlesbrough
    2N56 1940 Carlisle - Middlesbrough

    As well as 2N45 1616 Nunthorpe - Carlisle.
     
  12. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    Reduced to 3 changes if you use the (single) Skipton - London Kings Cross service between Shipley & Doncaster.
     
  13. Quakkerillo

    Quakkerillo Member

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    Let's look at it per TOC (Normal day service patterns used. Some (like Northern) may not be possible in 1 day.)
    ATW: Cardiff Bay - Warrington Bank Quay will need 3.
    AGA: Sudbury - Southminster will also need 3. (5:30 departure needs 2)
    Chiltern: 1 change (Bicester Town / Islip excluded for works reasons)
    EMT: Worksop to Grimsby or Spalding to Matlock need 2.
    FGW: Hereford to Gunnislake needs 3.
    FTP: 1 change (Or is it two due to the LIV-Newcastle service at Victoria?)
    Southern: Tonbridge to Ashford International needs 2
    Govia Thameslink: Still 2 if I look correct.
    Londom Midland: Stourbridge town to Alsager needs 3.
    London Overground: 3 as mentioned by OP
    Northern Rail: Ellesmere Port to Bishop Auckland. (6??? Warrington Bank Quay, Liverpool Lime Street, Preston, Carlisle, Newcastle, Darlington) Area around Grimsby excluded.
    Scotrail: Many options are 3 (Far north to Inverness to EDB to GLC/GLQ to anywhere)
    Southeastern: St Pancras to Bromley North needs 3.
    South West Trains: Camberley to Lymington Pier needs 3 (Brockenhurst, Woking / Clapham, Ascot / Ash Vale) (Island line excluded)

    Not mentioned TOC's only need one change, often at their central location (Birmingham NS for XC)

    As this was quite some work, and as I'm not even British, I do apologise for any possible errors, but with my knowledge, I hope it's close to being correct.
     
  14. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    There is always one. [​IMG]

    Bank Quay run by Virgin West Coast, not by ATW.

    I think the same issue applies for many examples given underneath.

    Ellesmere Port (or other stations on that line which are actually run by Northern) to Bishop Auckland can be done with 3 changes, at Warrington Bank Quay, Manchester Pic and Darlington.
     
  15. Quakkerillo

    Quakkerillo Member

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    The way I looked at it was going from station A operated by a TOC going to station B operated by that same TOC, using only trains ran by that TOC.

    I now noticed that's not exactly what the OP said though. But if it were, that's what my list was based upon. Oh well. Answered a question that was unasked. :D
     
  16. D6975

    D6975 Established Member

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    ATW must surely be Cardiff Bay to anywhere up the Blaenau branch.
     
  17. Cherry_Picker

    Cherry_Picker Established Member

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    You could tinker with some of the limited service destinations to get an extra change. London Paddington to Oxford is an hour on FGW but can be done entirely on Chiltern services if you change at West Ruislip and Banbury.
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2015
  18. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    If only using the service operated by the particular TOC concerned then Northern will no doubt win hands down, due to the segregated nature of different parts of their franchise. As you noted, to go from somewhere like Ince & Elton to somewhere around Darlington would entail a massive detour via Carlisle and Newcastle, and similarly for a journey from a Barton line station to the Whitby line, and only doable around a Saturday.
     
  19. GrimsbyPacer

    GrimsbyPacer Established Member

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    There is a oneway Northern service to Grimsby from Doncaster once a day. So is possible Mon-Fri towards Grimsby (if you had the time which needed you don't)
     
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    For most of the day it would be 5 as SWT don't generally have a through service between Portsmouth Hbr and Southampton Ctrl, so to stick with SWT only you'd need another change at Portsmouth & Southsea or Fratton...
     
  21. JamesRowden

    JamesRowden Established Member

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    The OP's question did not state that the services had to be operated by the one TOC, just that the stations had to be operated by the same TOC.
     
  22. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Does it? Changing at Reading and Plymouth is two surely?
     
  23. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    But is that a "reasonable route" from Hereford to Gunnislake? (I'm sure the OP was assuming travel by "reasonable routes" but I may stand corrected.)
     
  24. DanTrainMan185

    DanTrainMan185 Established Member

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    It's still three changes: Cardiff Queen Street, Cardiff Central and Llandudno Junction.

    I was just trying to work out if there was anywhere that needed four changes. Tried to work out Bidston, but it's the same with the change at Shotton as opposed to Llandudno Junction.
     
  25. D6975

    D6975 Established Member

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    What's wrong with changing at Newport and Plymouth?
    That's definitely a reasonable route.
    There's at least one Cardiff-Plymouth a day, 0900 off Cardiff.
    Do FGW still run up the marches to Hereford at peaks though?

    edit - it seems not, all ATW between Newport and Hereford nowadays.
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2015
  26. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    And for destinations Denton or Reddish South, you can only get there on Fridays, and from many locations, you probably have to start your journey on a Thursday.
     
  27. GrimsbyPacer

    GrimsbyPacer Established Member

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    Saturday if you go from Gainsborough Central to Denton.
    Leave Saturday, change at Sheffield and Stockport and wait around 6 days!
     
  28. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Or Cardiff Bay to anywhere on the Cambrian.
     
  29. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Using the current timetable, that's two changes at Cardiff Central and Shrewsbury (check timetable 130A for the "from Cardiff Bay" and "to Cardiff Bay" trains).

    With the exception of Cardiff Bay, I think every ATW station has direct trains to and from Cardiff Central, Llandudno Junction Shotton or Shrewsbury, and those stations all have direct trains to and from one another.

    This will change tomorrow, however, as through trains from the Cambrian Coast to Shrewsbury will end. This will mean that it will take a minimum of 4 changes to travel from somewhere like Barmouth to Cardiff Bay by train, changing at stations such as Machynlleth, Shrewsbury, Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street.
     
  30. Chrisgr31

    Chrisgr31 Established Member

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    On a Sunday Uckfield to anywhere not served by Southern trains stopping at East Croydon is going to take 2 changes.
     
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