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Trivia - most reversals on a service
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crispy1978
Member
Where the train goes in one way and out the other, in other words it goes in "forwards" and reverses out "backwards".
In effect the crew swop ends to make this happen.
Sooooo. If I go to Vic and back all day that would be considered a reversal ?
bb21
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On the same train? If so then yes.
Why do I sense your original question was tongue in cheek?
Why do I sense your original question was tongue in cheek?
Nope. I've never heard the phrase before.
*edit*
Considering we do not "reverse" trains and change of direction has a very different meaning for me as a Driver. Going from Farringdon to St Panc. changes direction
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67018
Member
Nope. I've never heard the phrase before.
*edit*
Considering we do not "reverse" trains and change of direction has a very different meaning for me as a Driver. Going from Farringdon to St Panc. changes direction
OK, I'll bite. Which service has the most changes of direction in the sense of transitions from 'up' to 'down' in a single journey from origin to destination?
When your "Face" reservation ticket starts lying to you.
I'll start with Liverpool-Norwich (8 including single line/chords)
Liverpool-Hazel Grove = Up
Hazel Grove chord = Up & Down
Hazel Grove-Dore = Up
Dore-Dore Station Jn = Down & Up
Dore-Sheffield = Down
Sheffield-Mansfield Jn = Up
Mansfield Jn-Nottingham East Jn= Down
Nottingham East Jn-Ely = Up
Ely-Norwich = Down
backontrack
Established Member
Inverness-Wick reverses twice, at both Georgemas Junction and Thurso.
Jonfun
Established Member
I think you're overthinking this. Train travels from Origin to Destination. If at an intermediate station (or indeed junction, signal, or other such location) the train comes out of said station in the same direction it came in, then that's a reversal. For example, a Northbound XC from Southampton to Newcastle would have two reversals, one at Reading and one at Birmingham New Street.
Quakkerillo
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De Panne - Landen reverses at Brussels National Airport
Antwerpen - Hasselt reverses at Leuven
For quickness a Havant to Southampton goes from down to up to down in the space of 10 mins.
Havant to Cosham junc : Down
Cosham junc to Fareham : Up
Fareham to Southampton : Down
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The thread is about reversals not changing from track to track.
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I'm trying to fathom out what criteria makes it a reversal so far it is unclear.
Groningen stated a change of direction but that's not quite true as I highlighted that a change of direction has other meanings.
Crispy stated it goes in one way then out the other with crew change. That was confirmed by bb1 with my Vic and back example.
Now your saying it is a reversal at an intermediate station. I'd certainly be interested to know where crew change ends on a signal and or junction
I'd also like to know if it is a passenger perspective or traincrew because again, Origin and destination mean different things to me. I drive a service where it could be seen as a single journey but could also be seen as two separate services. Hence my confusion.
Buttsy
Established Member
Once went on the Wessex Scot on a Sunday in 1985 when, after the reversal at Reading, there were reversals at Wigan NW and Lostock Junction as well as the effective reversal at Carstairs when our portion went on to Edinburgh
67018
Member
...well it was originally, until we got sidetracked by the meditations of ComUtoR
Presumably people are generally talking about a single journey from origin to destination, so would it be defined by a single headcode (or service ID, or whatever you call it)? Otherwise the Waterloo and City line would be a good contender!
A "reversal" is really quite simple; it's where a train is being driven from the opposite cab to where it started.
During the Bath blockade, GW ran services through to Bristol TM that avoided Box by reversing at Bradford Jn. The driver literally got out of one cab, walked trackside to the other cab, got back in and drove in the opposite direction.
Anyone who was travelling forwards would now be travelling backwards.
Happens all the time at Gloucester, Bristol TM, Carmarthen, Chester, Swansea etc.
Jonfun
Established Member
I'll be honest, I thought "reversal" was a fairly standard term with no difference in meaning between passenger and traincrew (other terms such as "change of direction" would have a difference in meaning), but the railway is one of those places with potentially a fair few different words in each region for the same thing.
Groningen is right from a passenger perspective - the train physically changes direction. But as you say, to a member of traincrew, this is likely to refer to the point at which the line the train is travelling on stops being up and starts being down or vice versa.
Crispy didn't say the train has a crew change. He says that the crew change ends. Which is correct, unless you're feeling particularly adventurous and want to drive the train from the (now) back cab to spice things up a bit, or have a natter and a brew with the Conductor.
I wouldn't say into (London) Vic(toria?) and back is a reversal, at least not for the purpose of this thread. Your inbound train terminates and then forms a new service which will start in the outbound direction. If your train then stopped somewhere en route and had to leave the same way in which it arrived in order to continue it's journey, then this would be a reversal.
It's not unknown for traincrews to change ends not at a station. On the Looe branch, trains leave Liskeard, pass over a junction, then reverse direction back over said junction, but the other way, towards Looe, requiring the crew to change ends. I've been on diverted XC services which have had to reverse near Severn Tunnel Junction, so driver has to change ends. And ECS, off the top of my head some XC Reading terminators go into the siding just beyond Reading station for the Driver to change ends, and if a Southbound XC service has to terminate at Brockenhurst, you have to do a shunt move to the South in order to cross over to the Northbound platforms. The driver thus has to change ends just past the junction at the South end of the station.
There will be services which are grey areas in terms of Origin and Destination (Merseyrail loop line services near me, for example) but the vast majority of trains go from A to B.
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Which is why I'm confused. Going into Vic, terminating, changing ends, and then going out the opposite cab to where it started is what happens all day on our TOC. The unit can go up and down all day pretty much and especially so on a weekend in normal service. There would be quite a few reversals
That's what bothers me. It certainly isn't a single journey so shouldn't be considered a "reversal" but by Michaels definition that is what happens.
We also have Cannon St > Cannon St services that are made up of Cannon > Crayford > Cannon but are 2 distinct services, sometimes more if you go ECS round the loop. Additionally some of our rounders don't even change headcodes and none of them require me to leave the cab either
Just as worse is our mainlines that split/join en route. Its 2 services on the schedule card but all a passenger sees is a single trip.
For the purpose of the thread I would contribute our "poppers" as its only 2 stations stops then change ends and go back out the same direction. That would certainly be many many reversals
Cheers Jonfun for the informative second part of your post.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
A reversal in simple terms is when a train arrives at a location and goes back out the way it came in and is the same service. That, I think, is the intention of the OP.
Jonfun
Established Member
Which is why I'm confused. Going into Vic, terminating, changing ends, and then going out the opposite cab to where it started is what happens all day on our TOC. The unit can go up and down all day pretty much and especially so on a weekend in normal service. There would be quite a few reversals
(...)
That's what bothers me. It certainly isn't a single journey so shouldn't be considered a "reversal" but by Michaels definition that is what happens.
No probs
From a unit perspective then yes, the unit reverses direction there, that can't be denied, certainly on our diagrams all reversals are marked with "RM" regardless of whether it's en route or at the point where it ends it's inbound journey and starts its outbound one. The thread title though refers to most reversals on a service, which I would take to mean as a train running from it's origin to destination. If your service runs Cannon Street to Cannon Street without you leaving the cab (I'm not familiar with that area, I live in Liverpool) then that service has no reversals.
ANorthernGuard
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A typical Hadfield service. Reverse at Glossop, then Hadfield, Then Glossop again
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
No. When it reverses at Glossop again, it's a different service. Why are people trying to complicate a straightforward topic.
ANorthernGuard
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actually not all the time. I only have worked a few hundred over the last few years. That is why The Hadfield service comes sometimes as the Manchester Piccadilly Service. Same headcode throughout. So stick that in ya pipe lol
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Me getting muxed ip here. Only went to Glossop a couple of years ago and forgetting train went to Hadfield via Glossop not the other way round.
Thomas6187
Member
These are the service which ANorthernGuard is referring too
Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Piccadilly via Hadfield and Glossop
Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Piccadilly via Hadfield and Glossop
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Don't Glossop/Hadfield services switch which direction they go round the Dinting-Glossop-Hadfield triangle between the morning and evening peaks? I'm sure I heard something along those lines and it would presumably even out wheel-wear...
Thomas6187
Member
In the morning the service goes Dinting->Hadfield->Glossop->Dinting. In the afternoon it goes Dinting->Glossop->Hadfield->Dinting.
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