Trivia: Place names that you're not sure how to pronounce

[Merthyr Imp]

• Bevois Valley is pronounced Beevus Valley, even though it is named after a frenchman.

Similar to Belvoir Castle near Grantham - pronounced 'Beaver'.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

What forever confuses me is that the LLs next to the end of the names Caerphilly and Llanelli are pronounced differently.

I may very well be wrong here, but perhaps Llanelli is already the Welsh spelling, whereas Caerphilly is the English spelling. After a tiny bit of research I found that Caerphilly’s Welsh spelling is Caerffili with only one ‘L’ so this could explain why the two places are pronounced differently.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I may very well be wrong here, but perhaps Llanelli is already the Welsh spelling, whereas Caerphilly is the English spelling. After a tiny bit of research I found that Caerphilly’s Welsh spelling is Caerffili with only one ‘L’ so this could explain why the two places are pronounced differently.

Correct, Caerphilly is a wholly unecessary Anglicised spelling. Caerffili is spelt phonetically, like everything else in Welsh.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

FAO @NorthernSpirit
Sowerby Bridge I've heard the first syllable as both "Sow" and "Saw", both from locals too. The second syllable is often dropped so you'll hear "Sawby Bridge" quite a bit particularly from the natives.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

FAO @NorthernSpirit
Sowerby Bridge I've heard the first syllable as both "Sow" and "Saw", both from locals too. The second syllable is often dropped so you'll hear "Sawby Bridge" quite a bit particularly from the natives.

The way I pronouce it is a mixture of both "Sow" and "Saw" as So-awr-bee since I hadn't a clue on how its actually pronouced despite living around eight miles away and even resorting to asking a local there, at least this clears it up.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The way I pronouce it is a mixture of both "Sow" and "Saw" as So-awr-bee since I hadn't a clue on how its actually pronouced despite living around eight miles away and even resorting to asking a local there, at least this clears it up.

As you'll no doubt know, West Yorkshire folk often shorten things when they get said over and over. "Sawby Bridge" is an example of this, as are Slawit and "Linfit" (Linthwaite). Slawit instead of Slaithwaite is dialectal, but the generally accepted pronunciation of the station West of Huddersfield is Slath-waite. I've never heard anyone else from the Colne Valley (I'm a native) deliberately use the long-form ("ay") of the first vowel, as the robot on the 185s does.

 

[uglymonkey]

Fowey & Liskeard are fun.

 

[DavidGrain]

Alvechurch, I have always pronounced Alv'church but the recorded announcements have always pronounced the 'e'. I believe I have the correct local pronounciation but I may be wrong.

 

[urbophile]

C Caerffili is spelt phonetically, like everything else in Welsh.

Not only phonetically, but carefully.

 

[fowler9]

Blimey, Spanish is a much easier language.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Blimey, Spanish is a much easier language.

Easier than what?

 

[prod_pep]

Alvechurch, I have always pronounced Alv'church but the recorded announcements have always pronounced the 'e'. I believe I have the correct local pronounciation but I may be wrong.

Alvechurch is definitely pronounced with a silent 'e' as you mention. One of many "Anne" mispronunciations.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Although I am not a Welsh speaker, I can tell you that 'w' is a vowel in Welsh pronounced 'oo'. I would pronounce Betws-y-Coed as Betoos-i-Co-ed. I have been there on a Bws! There is a town in South Wales called Ebbw Vale which also has a 'w' pronounced 'oo'.

I can assure you, from watching Derek Brockway on the Welsh weather forecast that Betws-y-Coed often gets pronounced "Betsy- coid" this is due to the "w" in Betws being a short sound {think oo in "wood"} when said fast it comes out as bet-us uh coid.. which then contracts down to betsy-coid. Truth is, Welsh doesn't have any "standard" pronunciation unlike English so it tends to be up to the locals how any particular sound should be... another example is the "wy" sound... in many parts it is pronounced "oi" whereas others it is "wee" I live in a house that's name begins "Llywn".. as my landlord told me it's pronounced "Hloo-in" that's how I pronounce it, but I know half a dozen people who absolutely insist I'm pronouncing my own house name wrong!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

LL should not be said as an H, you need to practice LL its more like if you were Scottish and saying Och ai the way you say the ch in Och is similar to LL

I find the best way to get the "ll" in Welsh is to place my tongue at the roof of my mouth as if I'm going to say the "l" and instead of voicing an "l" aspirate as you would with an "h". Whether or not that's how a native welsh speaker does it I don't know... but I've never been told I'm getting the sound wrong lol

 

[PeterC]

I find the best way to get the "ll" in Welsh is to place my tongue at the roof of my mouth as if I'm going to say the "l" and instead of voicing an "l" aspirate as you would with an "h". Whether or not that's how a native welsh speaker does it I don't know... but I've never been told I'm getting the sound wrong lol

Same here and I have never been corrected either.

 

[randyrippley]

A thing very recently encountered by me: it surfaced on a trip to north-west England with two friends, involving among other places, the rather bleakly beautiful Forest of Bowland, in Lancashire / Yorkshire. If I've ever heard this name spoken aloud before this recent "bash", I don't remember it. One friend pronounced it "Boh-land" (as I would, without hesitation, have transliterated it); the other, throughout the trip, pronounced it "Bolland", which he said was the local pronunciation. (It's not clear on what authority he had that info -- he doesn't come from those parts, and I don't think he's ever lived thereabouts.) Any comments from those with relevant knowledge?

I'm not a local, but I've lived around Lancaster for close on 40 years and never heard the supposed "Bolland" pronunciation.
Always Boland

The place in Bowland which always catches people out is Quernmore (pronounced Kwormer). It actually is a moorland-edge hamlet where they use to quarry millstone grit for querns and tool sharpening

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ilkeston...

I've heard folk saying "Ilson" but is that a dialectal "pet-name" (like Linfit or Slawit) or is it actually correct but often ignored?

 

[randyrippley]

Most of the Forest of Bow-land is (?was) in the ecclesiastical Rural Deanery pronounced Boll-and. I've heard and used both, without being corrected, in other words. And it's the Trough of Bow-land....
Not that there is a railway station anyway (though there was a contractor's line).

I presume you mean the Stocks Reservoir line...........I wonder how they got the locos across those roads? Even dragging them from Clitheroe by traction engine would have been a heck of a task

 

[InOban]

Ilkeston...

I've heard folk saying "Ilson" but is that a dialectal "pet-name" (like Linfit or Slawit) or is it actually correct but often ignored?

My better half was brought up in Chaddesden on a bus route to Ilkeston. She pronounces it in full, but she thinks that the locals may put the emphasis on the first syllable, so that it ends up as Ilkston

 

[InterCity:125]

Despite being quite simple I’ve heard train announcements for ‘Montpelier’ prounonced at least four different ways.

 

[NoOnesFool]

My mother was born in Marylebone and always pronounced it ''Marry-le-bone'' and I don't believe she so much as visited anywhere in the Midlands in her life. Could be a class thing, may I suggest.

Many London destinations are the same, Holborn splits opinions, as some call it "hoeburn", South wark is commonly pronounced as "Suvvark" and Dalston is affectionately known as "Doorston". It's probably the same as northerners pronouncing "Hull" as " Ull".

 

[30907]

Holborn... some call it "hoeburn", South wark is commonly pronounced as "Suvvark".

What else would you call Holborn (apart from dropping the H, common among station staff in my youth, allowing us knowalls to wonder how the 4EPB would get to Argyll)? Ditto Southwark (as in Southern and Southwell but not Southall!) - though the "vv" is a bit Sarf Lunnen for my posh taste.

 

[Stow]

Not been through all pages but Stow is often mispronounced, Berwick can be difficult for some too. I always ‘fault’ incorrect pronunciation on PIS, but get annoyed when staff announce places wrongly!

Reminds me of when
I bought a ticket to Berwick (Upon Tweed) in Brighton and the clerk made a quip to check I was buying the correct ticket and was surprised by my answer, it was the first time ever he had sold a ticket there rather than Berwick in Sussex.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I can assure you, from watching Derek Brockway on the Welsh weather forecast that Betws-y-Coed often gets pronounced "Betsy- coid" this is due to the "w" in Betws being a short sound {think oo in "wood"} when said fast it comes out as bet-us uh coid.. which then contracts down to betsy-coid. Truth is, Welsh doesn't have any "standard" pronunciation unlike English so it tends to be up to the locals how any particular sound should be... another example is the "wy" sound... in many parts it is pronounced "oi" whereas others it is "wee" I live in a house that's name begins "Llywn".. as my landlord told me it's pronounced "Hloo-in" that's how I pronounce it, but I know half a dozen people who absolutely insist I'm pronouncing my own house name wrong!

The half dozen people are right, your landlord is wrong. Of course Welsh has standard pronunciation. Every letter is sounded. Regional accents and local usage may vary but to nowhere near the same extent as English. Listen to a native of Birmingham and a native of Hull and they could from different countries. What is 'Standard English? Many everyday English words have changed in everyday usage during my lifetime , principally by the acquired American habit of stressing the first syllable e.g. REEsearch etc. By the way, I have never heard my former neighbour, Derek Brockway mispronounce Betws y Coed.

 

[krus_aragon]

I live in a house that's name begins "Llywn".. as my landlord told me it's pronounced "Hloo-in" that's how I pronounce it, but I know half a dozen people who absolutely insist I'm pronouncing my own house name wrong!

A small typographical error there: I'm sure you meant to write "Llwyn" (bush). I wouldn't normally bother mentioning it, bus seeing as we're on a thread about spelling and pronunciations...

(Incidentally I grew up in a house with the name Llwyn Celyn - Holly Bush. By my reckoning, it looks like you've got the pronunciation right, though some regional Welsh accents do tend to mush the two syllables together into one.)

Edit: It seems Gwenllian and I disagree on that one. It is difficult to write down words phonetically without resorting to something like the IPA alphabet, and the "wy" dipthong in the middle of the word means there's more scope for variety than usual.

 

[fowler9]

Easier than what?

English, Polish, Finnish, Estonian. How extensive a list do you want for me personally?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

A small typographical error there: I'm sure you meant to write "Llwyn" (bush). I wouldn't normally bother mentioning it, bus seeing as we're on a thread about spelling and pronunciations...

(Incidentally I grew up in a house with the name Llwyn Celyn - Holly Bush. By my reckoning, it looks like you've got the pronunciation right, though some regional Welsh accents do tend to mush the two syllables together into one.)

Edit: It seems Gwenllian and I disagree on that one. It is difficult to write down words phonetically without resorting to something like the IPA alphabet, and the "wy" dipthong in the middle of the word means there's more scope for variety than usual.

oops yes you're right... Llwyn is correct.. my usual high standard of proof reading slipped there

The half dozen people are right, your landlord is wrong. Of course Welsh has standard pronunciation. Every letter is sounded.

See my comment above about mis spelling the word.. so the half dozen people are right are they? and everyone else is wrong? strange how the half doz people who correct me are from North Wales and I live in West Wales... regional dialect I presume... Welsh does NOT have standard pronunciation... jeez North Welsh is hardly the same language as South Welsh... now in North is "rwan" in South it's "nawr" then there's ble/lle... I could go on... of course, my landlord, being a native speaker, having been born and grown up in the house I now live in, his family having lived in it since it was built would have no idea how to pronounce the name of the place?

By the way, I have never heard my former neighbour, Derek Brockway mispronounce Betws y Coed.

I suggest you watch the weather forecast more often then... when he says it on the forecast it most certainly sounds like "betsuh coid" but then I did also give a run down of how the name contracts as you say it faster... a bit like I've mentioned on other threads about "diolch yn fawr" which on my travels I've heard as DEE-olkh un Vow-er all the way through to dokh uh var... all from native born Welsh speakers!

 

[Bayum]

What else would you call Holborn (apart from dropping the H, common among station staff in my youth, allowing us knowalls to wonder how the 4EPB would get to Argyll)? Ditto Southwark (as in Southern and Southwell but not Southall!) - though the "vv" is a bit Sarf Lunnen for my posh taste.

I’ve called it ‘Hol-born’ the few times I’ve tried to get there. Gate staff looked at me in a reet funny way.

I tend to pronounce Southwark with a voiced ‘Th’

Despite being quite simple I’ve heard train announcements for ‘Montpelier’ prounonced at least four different ways.

I’d be tempted to give it a French sounding pronunciation... What is it actually?

There’s a few places on the tube I’d pronounce completely incorrectly, but hey ho. I’ve just found out that Teignmouth is pronounced ‘Tin muth’

 

[mmh]

See my comment above about mis spelling the word.. so the half dozen people are right are they? and everyone else is wrong? strange how the half doz people who correct me are from North Wales and I live in West Wales... regional dialect I presume... Welsh does NOT have standard pronunciation... jeez North Welsh is hardly the same language as South Welsh... now in North is "rwan" in South it's "nawr" then there's ble/lle... I could go on... of course, my landlord, being a native speaker, having been born and grown up in the house I now live in, his family having lived in it since it was built would have no idea how to pronounce the name of the place?

Welsh does have standard pronuciation. "rwan" vs "nawr" is a difference in dialect, any North Walian or South Walian is able to say both words because the rules of pronuciation are the same. They might end up sounding different, that's a difference in accent, just as in England.

You don't have to be fluent in Welsh to be able to say words which you have no idea what mean correctly, provided you're used enough to the patterns, which don't change, unlike English with it's "Featherstonehaughs" and the like.

I only speak pidgin Welsh, but I'm pretty sure I could read anything and be reasonably accurate and understood even if I didn't understand it. Albeit in a North Walian accent, because that's where I learnt it. To me milk is llefrith not llaeth, but I can pronounce both.

"Albeit" actually is a good example of the difference between a phonetic language and English. As a kid I knew what the word meant, having read it, but I'd never heard it pronounced, and read it as "al-bayt", not "all-be-it". Ambiguity like that is far rarer in a phonetic language.

I suggest you watch the weather forecast more often then... when he says it on the forecast it most certainly sounds like "betsuh coid" but then I did also give a run down of how the name contracts as you say it faster... a bit like I've mentioned on other threads about "diolch yn fawr" which on my travels I've heard as DEE-olkh un Vow-er all the way through to dokh uh var... all from native born Welsh speakers!

Much the same as comparing how different people say "alright" in English. Think of that in a stereotype Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and London accent.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Welsh does have standard pronuciation. "rwan" vs "nawr" is a difference in dialect, any North Walian or South Walian is able to say both words because the rules of pronuciation are the same. They might end up sounding different, that's a difference in accent, just as in England.

You're wrong... there is no Welsh equivalent of the "Queen's English" or Received Pronunciation. In English, anything pronounced differently to the Standard pronunciation is technically incorrect and is considered "dialect" whereas in Welsh, as there is no "standard" all regional variations of pronunciation are equally valid. Of course, certain North Walians will tell you different and that anything other than North Walian Welsh is not "correct Welsh" There is also a lot of nonsense spoken about Welsh being a phonetic language.. certainly in everyday spoken Welsh it isn't... take "how are you" in Welsh: sut ydych chi... phoneticly it would be said "SEET uh-dikh khee" but it isn't it's said "Should a key"!