Trivia: Place names that you're not sure how to pronounce

[DavidGrain]

The pronunciation of Alvechurch on automated announcements irritates me. They always say Al-ver-church, but it should be Alf-church.

Yes I actually pronounce it Alv-church. Makes you wonder how they would have got on had the line still continued past Redditch to Alcester. When I told my mother years ago that I was doing some work in Alcester she thought I would be working in Northern Ireland. I will leave the readers to work that one out.

 

[Calthrop]

Like it! Of course most places ending in ‘ham’ come from the Saxon for ‘village’. Sometimes the h is pronounced as the start of the final syllable and sometimes it joins the previous vowel. The oft-cited example is ‘Gotham’, a village in the East Midlands pronounced ‘got-ham’ ( or even ‘gottam’ as opposed to Batman’s home city, which is ‘goth-um’.

Gotham is pronounced 'goat-um'

Interesting to me, particularly concerning the first vowel of the name. I first heard that name spoken, very long ago; I think at primary school, involving the subject of folk-tales: viz. the one according to which Gotham, Notts., was inhabited by highly stupid people -- thus, the antics of the "wise men of Gotham", who were anything but wise. The teacher then, pronounced it to rhyme with "slow thumb" -- with the soft "th", as in "thumb". Per @Merthyr Imp, she was wrong about the soft "th", but right about the long "o".

While on a railway-related expedition in those parts a few years ago, with a friend: the name came up in conversation. I pronounced it as per my long-ago teacher, above. My friend (who I don't think had ever heard of the place before) was for some reason adamant that it must be "Goth-am/um": first syllable, as in "long-ago barbarian / trendy glum black-clad young person" -- "th" wrongly, because neither of us then knew any better; and short, not long "o" (he got quite cross about my pronunciation of the "o"). I feel vindicated !

 

[Calthrop]

The locals I know pronounce it Byou-morris, sometimes Byou-maris. but maybe they have Deeside influences!

Re. Beaumaris:

Bow-marris is a pronunciation most often used by visitors, or people moving/retiring to the area.

Byou-marris is the pronunciation used by most locals, though with an Anglesey accent it can drift toward Byou-marras instead. (c.f. the modern Welsh spelling of Biwmares.)

Anyone that says Bow-maree is either very mis-informed, or taking the mick!

My bolding -- the "Deeside influences" reference, interests me. My late mother came from Chester: she went with parents (the family were English) on summer holidays in Anglesey nearly a hundred years ago. She pronounced the place "Bow-morris" -- a slightly different variant from any cited above !

I moved to the West Midlands a while ago, and live just on the border of Smethwick and Edgbaston.

To a local, Smethwick is pronounced Smethick, with the emphasis on the first syllable, the W silent and a hard "th" as in then or there

But in dealing with people over the phone, I have heard it pronounced Smeth - wick, with the W pronounced fully, and a soft "th" as in theory or Thanet.

But like when we in the UK call the capital of Belgium Brussels, whereas to a local it is either Brussel or Bruxelles.

Final sentence above: I see the point which you seek to make. Would suggest, though, that your Belgian example involves a slightly different situation as regards what's correct or incorrect: the Flemings and Walloons are correct in their respective renderings, but so are we in ours. Speakers of different languages will modify along their own preferred lines, certain names in other, neighbouring languages -- everyone's version, if it becomes a matter of conventional usage, is "right for them, though wrong for the owner nation" -- it's all custom and context. (The French call London, "Londres".)

With the English having long, and renownedly, tended to be "challenged" as regards coping with foreign tongues -- we do seem to have some splendidly distorted renderings of foreign place-names. A favourite of mine in this line, is Livorno in Italy, which we have somehow transmuted into "Leghorn". Though I have seen it suggested that this city's being located on the Ligurian Sea, makes Leghorn look less crazy than first impressions might suggest !

 

[Steddenm]

The one that gets me is Evesham. Automated announcements announce it as Eve-SHUM whilst locals call it Eve-ur-shum. Which is it!!

 

[urbophile]

With the English having long, and renownedly, tended to be "challenged" as regards coping with foreign tongues -- we do seem to have some splendidly distorted renderings of foreign place-names. A favourite of mine in this line, is Livorno in Italy, which we have somehow transmuted into "Leghorn". Though I have seen it suggested that this city's being located on the Ligurian Sea, makes Leghorn look less crazy than first impressions might suggest !

Rather off topic, but I can't understand why we British spell Lyons and Marseilles with a final S, even though we pronounce them (more or less) the French way. The French don't use the S, so it's bizarre!

 

[Parallel]

Other ones:

Solsbury (rhymes with foal)
Saulsbury (rhymes with fall)

Red druth
Red ruth

I’ve also heard some locals in Devon pronounce Ex Muth as Ex Mouth.

 

[urbophile]

Shruesbury or Shrowsbury? First syllable of Malvern to rhyme with pal or wall or doll?

 

[Calthrop]

Rather off topic, but I can't understand why we British spell Lyons and Marseilles with a final S, even though we pronounce them (more or less) the French way. The French don't use the S, so it's bizarre!

"Off topic" can sometimes be fun ! A quick bit of Googling suggests that there's anyway a theory that in Old French, many centuries ago, the L-city was spelt with a final S: which French has ditched, but English has -- spelling-wise -- kept. Why we put an S on the end of the Mediterranean port, would seem to be anybody's guess.

Shruesbury or Shrowsbury?

I'm given to understand that even the locals are not in accordance on this -- some say it one way, some the other.

 

[MarkWiles]

Shruesbury or Shrowsbury? First syllable of Malvern to rhyme with pal or wall or doll?

Most locals I've met call it shroozbrie. It's like the BBC insist Rugeley is "Rougelee" whereas locally it's "Rudgelee" to rhyme with "Fudge"

There again the locals call the next station "Edgefud" and Uttoxeter "Utchetta" so make of that what you will.

 

[Marvin]

First syllable of Malvern to rhyme with pal or wall or doll?

None of the above - it's Mull-vn

 

[tommy2215]

There seems to be a misconception that every place only has one right way to pronounce it, but many places (like Shrewsbury) have more than one correct pronunciations.

 

[JohnB57]

Slaithwaite- or "Sla-wit"

That old chestnut.

In casual conversation, maybe. But "Slath-waite" or "Slath-wit" would be the accepted correct pronunciation, especially when in more formal conversation or with those unfamiliar with the area.

In the same vein, Skelmanthorpe was always "Shat", Kirkheaton was "Yetton" and Kirkburton, just "Burton". None of them would have worked as platform announcements though.

 

[hexagon789]

As it's London, the 'th' will probably be rendered as 'ff'.

Well I'm not from London

 

[stut]

In the same vein, Skelmanthorpe was always "Shat", Kirkheaton was "Yetton" and Kirkburton, just "Burton". None of them would have worked as platform announcements though.

Thanks goodness for retention tanks, eh?

Don't think there's been an announcement for "Sapsed" (Sawbridgeworth) in quite a few years, either...

 

[JohnB57]

Thanks goodness for retention tanks, eh?

Exactly. In the local accent, Yetton and Burton make a kind of sense, but I could never work out where "Shat" came from. Speaking diallectically of course...

To keep this in a rail context, all three locations were served by rail at one time.

Edit.. Doctor Who is, of course, a proud "Shat Lass"!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Exactly. In the local accent, Yetton and Burton make a kind of sense, but I could never work out where "Shat" came from. Speaking diallectically of course...

To keep this in a rail context, all three locations were served by rail at one time.

Edit.. Doctor Who is, of course, a proud "Shat Lass"!

Are you sure about The Doctor? I'm fairly certain she doesn't mention it in every single interview...

The origin of "Shat" is unknown. One theory I've heard is that the navvies brought in to build the railway through (or more accurately, beneath) the village struggled to break through some troublesome geology while building Shelley Woodhouse tunnel. Legend has it that locals, familiar with the rock due to unofficial mining before the commercial pit opened at Emley (with "drift" access from Skelmanthorpe), were able to make progress through the difficult geology. They were nicknamed "shatterers" by foremen and/or the navvies, and thus the village became "Shat".

Another theory is that it's just local shorthand, and has been reinforced by the trendiness of "quaint" regionalism.

If anyone sees Occam, I found his razor...

 

[Kingspanner]

If anyone sees Occam, I found his razor...[/QUOTE]

"Ockham"

Since this is Pedant's Corner and the subject is place names
(Puts on tin hat and enters trench)

 

[Peter Bonner]

Can anyone help me pronounce this one correctly?-Micheldever in Hants. Have I spelt it corre tly?

 

[jfollows]

/mɪtʃəlˈdɛvər/ according to Wikipedia!
I always pronounced it with a long e "deever" but apparently it should be a short one as in "dress"

 

[Lewlew]

/mɪtʃəlˈdɛvər/ according to Wikipedia!
I always pronounced it with a long e "deever" but apparently it should be a short one as in "dress"

It sounds like "endeavour"

 

[Dr_Paul]

Chesham on the Metropolitan Line is usually pronounced Cheshum, but a former work colleague who lived near the town said it was locally pronounced as Chezzum, which is how he said it.

 

[PeterC]

Chesham on the Metropolitan Line is usually pronounced Cheshum, but a former work colleague who lived near the town said it was locally pronounced as Chezzum, which is how he said it.

Since the Met was electrified most of the 21,000+ residents are incomers who say Chesh-um. I have only heard Chezzum used twice in the 20+ years that I have lived there, both by people from other parts of Bucks.

Chess-um is an alternative local pronunciation, I think the ss/zz divide was class based.

 

[Calthrop]

Concerning Micheldever -- off topic; but I find it pleasantly odd that -- with the station of that name, being about two and a half miles north of the old-established village of that name -- since the arrival of the railway, another, new, village has grown up in the immediate neighbourhood of the station: this settlement officially named "Micheldever Station".

(I like to imagine that the name Micheldever inspired J.R.R. Tolkien in his creating the name of the hobbits' capital -- Michel Delving On The White Downs,)

 

[Pumperkin]

None of the above - it's Mull-vn

As someone who lived in Malvern for the best part of 20 years (escaped when I could!), it's Moll-vun (emphasis on the first syllable).

 

[JohnB57]

Are you sure about The Doctor? I'm fairly certain she doesn't mention it in every single interview...

The origin of "Shat" is unknown. One theory I've heard is that the navvies brought in to build the railway through (or more accurately, beneath) the village struggled to break through some troublesome geology while building Shelley Woodhouse tunnel. Legend has it that locals, familiar with the rock due to unofficial mining before the commercial pit opened at Emley (with "drift" access from Skelmanthorpe), were able to make progress through the difficult geology. They were nicknamed "shatterers" by foremen and/or the navvies, and thus the village became "Shat".

Another theory is that it's just local shorthand, and has been reinforced by the trendiness of "quaint" regionalism.

If anyone sees Occam, I found his razor...

If you came from somewhere as fabulously exclusive as Skelmanthorpe, wouldn't you mention it at every possible juncture? (Not referring to "Clayton West Juncture", just in case you were wondering!)

I've seen the theories on the etymology of Shat, but they all just seem too contrived. The truth is probably just as strange though...

 

[Essan]

The one that gets me is Evesham. Automated announcements announce it as Eve-SHUM whilst locals call it Eve-ur-shum. Which is it!!

Should really be Ay-sum

But I think only some of us locals (and a dying number) use Eve-ur-shum these days. Still bugs me every time I hear it announced as Eve-shum though.

And as Pumperkin says, the first syllable of Malvern is moll. I pronounce the second syllable short, so Moll-ven, but you'll also hear Moll-vern. Both seem acceptable.

 

[hexagon789]

One i recently became aware of - Kilmacanogue in Co. Wicklow.

"Kill-ma-cannik"

 

[gg1]

To a local, Smethwick is pronounced Smethick, with the emphasis on the first syllable, the W silent and a hard "th" as in then or there

But in dealing with people over the phone, I have heard it pronounced Smeth - wick, with the W pronounced fully, and a soft "th" as in theory or Thanet.

Very rarely heard nowadays but the traditional Black Country pronunciations is Smerrick.

 

[DavidGrain]

Very rarely heard nowadays but the traditional Black Country pronunciations is Smerrick.

Yes, had forgotten that one, and I am fairly local.

Where I lived as a child, most people pronounced Birmingham as Brumagem which gives us Brum and Brummies. As I sometimes have to tell people "Oi ay a Brumime, om a Block ****ry mon".

Oh I have been edited as there was an objection to the way I spelled Country as I would say it. Sorry about that folks. Glad I don't live in North Lincolnshire.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

As it's London, the 'th' will probably be rendered as 'ff'.

Only by a minority. I've worked in Walthamstow and I live near there and most people pronounce the "th" correctly.

How is Haughley as in Haughley Junction pronounced?

And is it confirmed that Breich as in a station with fewer than one passenger a day is pronounced breach as in a breach of contract?