[TRIVIA] Services that change mode of operation (DOO/guard) during the journey

[ForTheLoveOf]

Chiltern Railways non-loco-hauled services are generally operated in Driver Only Operation from Banbury southwards. This means that such services that go between north of Banbury (e.g. Birmingham) and south of Banbury (e.g. London) change their mode of operation at Banbury, gaining or losing a guard there.

Are there any other services that gain or lose a safety critical member of staff, and/or change their method of operation, mid-way through the journey?

 

[Aictos]

I'm sure SouthEastern do the same but can't remember their changeover point.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes operate with a Guard from Clapham Junction onwards

Same with London Bridge to Guildford in the peaks the Guard works the train as a Guard between Leatherhead and Guildford

 

[Aictos]

Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes operate with a Guard from Clapham Junction onwards

Same with London Bridge to Guildford in the peaks the Guard works the train as a Guard between Leatherhead and Guildford

Didn't think Southern had guards anymore? Thought they got rid of them apart from the ones now working as On Board Supervisors?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Didn't think Southern had guards anymore? Thought they got rid of them apart from the ones now working as On Board Supervisors?

They still have a fair few on the coast working the 313s and 171s on Marshlink, also at Selhurst they operate 171s on the Uckfield and the Dual Voltage 377s between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes, and the peak only Guildford services. Redhill to Tonbridge is also a mix between Guard operation, and Driver only. If its a Southeastern driver and guard its operated in the traditional way, when its a Southern driver its operated with an OBS. Unfortunately when the 313s go and if they lose the West London Line and Guildford peak extras there won't be many left just the bare minimum at Selhurst and Eastbourne to operate the 171 fleet.

 

[tsr]

Guildford-London Bridge. Conductor-worked south of Leatherhead, DOO north of there. Although the conductors are still nominally booked “Assist” (ie. customer service, no dispatch) north of Leatherhead on a couple of services, and retain route knowledge north of there, just in case.

Reigate-Victoria. OBSs work the majority of these trains on the Reigate-East Croydon bit only, and technically only need to be diagrammed for the short stretch from Reigate to Redhill anyway. (Exceptions do apply where the crew need to head to/from London anyway, and then they are sometimes due to work the whole journey.) This is a throwback to a time long before the DOO dispute, too - the old Reigate (and Tonbridge) to London Bridge services often used to dispense of conductors north of Purley. Redhill depot conductors used to spend half their working lives in Purley’s somewhat limited version of a “messroom”.

East Croydon-Milton Keynes Central. Conductors only work the trains between Clapham Junction and points north thereof. Again, a few are booked “Assist” on the bit south of there, and retain route knowledge, but by local convention, they aren’t generally relied upon to be there.

Gatwick Express. Dedicated GX OBSs work most of these trains north of Gatwick Airport, but for sketchy and slightly mysterious reasons, only appear very very rarely south of there.

 

[pdeaves]

Maidenhead-Bourne End is DOO, Bourne End-Marlow is not.

 

[tsr]

Maidenhead-Bourne End is DOO, Bourne End-Marlow is not.

That’s probably the weirdest one of all, even though there are tangible technical reasons behind it (I forget what they are, however).

Also Reading-Gatwick Airport. Some trains can work DOO south of Redhill, although I’m not sure how many currently do that.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

That’s probably the weirdest one of all, even though there are tangible technical reasons behind it (I forget what they are, however).

It may be to do with the number of user operated level crossings between Bourne End and Marlow, particularly on the mile or so out of Bourne End.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

London-Oxford can be DOO, Oxford-Worcester-Hereford can't.

 

[Mojo]

When 170s used to operate through trains from Lowestoft etc. to Liverpool St, the guard used to get on/off at Ipswich.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They still have a fair few on the coast working the 313s and 171s on Marshlink, also at Selhurst they operate 171s on the Uckfield and the Dual Voltage 377s between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes, and the peak only Guildford services. Redhill to Tonbridge is also a mix between Guard operation, and Driver only. If its a Southeastern driver and guard its operated in the traditional way, when its a Southern driver its operated with an OBS. Unfortunately when the 313s go and if they lose the West London Line and Guildford peak extras there won't be many left just the bare minimum at Selhurst and Eastbourne to operate the 171 fleet.

I'm not sure I can see the WLL being moved out, but I could see it going fully DOO in the event that Abellio pursue that option for the new LNR rolling stock and so do the required work on the WCML stations for it.

 

[TEW]

London-Oxford can be DOO, Oxford-Worcester-Hereford can't.

Although as a result of the deal between GWR and the RMT, through services between London and the Cotswold Line operated by IETs have to have a guard on throughout. Turbo operated services are still DOO between London and Oxford, with the guard working the train from Oxford onwards.

 

[TEW]

I'm sure SouthEastern do the same but can't remember their changeover point.

The services are operated DOO in the London area but I believe they are all diagrammed to have guards on board all the way through to the terminus, even though they do not have any part in the dispatch process closer to London.

 

[tsr]

The services are operated DOO in the London area but I believe they are all diagrammed to have guards on board all the way through to the terminus, even though they do not have any part in the dispatch process closer to London.

They longer distance services are meant to have a guard onboard, but can pick them up / drop them off at the boundary of the London DOO area during disruption. Because some of the boundaries are quite small stations, inevitably some trains don’t call or they’re not really practical for crew changes, so sometimes the DOO scenario doesn’t actually happen anyway.

The guards are meant to perform customer service duties but not dispatch in normal circumstances, although I believe they still sign the routes into their applicable London termini, including learning the layout of all the stations and platform starter signals in case there is an emergency requiring dispatch.

 

[Kite159]

When 170s used to operate through trains from Lowestoft etc. to Liverpool St, the guard used to get on/off at Ipswich.

Doesn't something like that happen now when the 170s go south of Ipswich (to Colchester or Harwich), with the guard leaving the train at Ipswich?

 

[Aictos]

The services are operated DOO in the London area but I believe they are all diagrammed to have guards on board all the way through to the terminus, even though they do not have any part in the dispatch process closer to London.

Indeed which is what I remember of them, I know the Hastings services have guards but they only operate once out of the London area to the best of my knowledge.

I just wish I could remember which station was the changeover point for South Eastern Mainline services between DOO and Guard Operation... Anyone?

 

[david737]

South Eastern Main line services switch between DOO & Guard operation at either Sevenoaks or Tonbridge if the train doesn't call at Hildenborough (no DOO equipment), not sure about Chatham side services though.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

South Eastern Main line services switch between DOO & Guard operation at either Sevenoaks or Tonbridge if the train doesn't call at Hildenborough (no DOO equipment), not sure about Chatham side services though.

Tonbridge and Hildenborough are definitely Guard dispatch. Think you're right that DOO zone begins at Sevenoaks. Its a good system that is proven to work.

 

[Hearadh]

Indeed which is what I remember of them, I know the Hastings services have guards but they only operate once out of the London area to the best of my knowledge.

I just wish I could remember which station was the changeover point for South Eastern Mainline services between DOO and Guard Operation... Anyone?

South Eastern Mainline is Sevenoaks and Maidstone East line is Otford or, that was the case several years ago. In the up direction there was a derogation whereby in an emergency a train could be despatched from Tonbridge DOO provided it did not stop at Hildenborough.

For the life of me I can't remember the changeover point on the Chatham side.

 

[Highlandspring]

Scotrail Ayr - Edinburgh & North Berwick (and vice versa)

 

[Antman]

Maidenhead-Bourne End is DOO, Bourne End-Marlow is not.

A guard is required for the reversing manoeuvre at Bourne End.

 

[Antman]

South Eastern Mainline is Sevenoaks and Maidstone East line is Otford or, that was the case several years ago. In the up direction there was a derogation whereby in an emergency a train could be despatched from Tonbridge DOO provided it did not stop at Hildenborough.

For the life of me I can't remember the changeover point on the Chatham side.

I think Swanley is the changeover point from Chatham, Otford is from Ashford via Maidstone East.

 

[306024]

Doesn't something like that happen now when the 170s go south of Ipswich (to Colchester or Harwich), with the guard leaving the train at Ipswich?

Colchester yes, Harwich no.

Many class 321 / 360 services out of Liverpool St are DOO to Colchester, then driver and guard forward depending on a whole list of operating considerations. Some are DOO throughout.

 

[iphone76]

The 0648 Southminster to Liverpool Street switches to DOO at Wickford whilst the 0737 from Southminster switches at South Woodham Ferrers.

I believe the switch occurs at the location where the full 12 coaches are deployed.

 

[bhb]

Trains from Liverpool Street to Clacton have a guard after leaving Colchester.

Edit: to amplify the point made a few posts up

 

[387star]

Think trains can be DOO from Gillingham to London?
Rainham which is the next station eastwards now has DOO TL services High speed aside which are DOO throughout but with the on board manager holding certain competencies ?

The TL Maidstone East / Ashford service will be an extension of DOO?

That said the service is a way off yet despite there now being a depot at Ashford
There are some random ones on GA like Sudbury to Marks Tey and the Clacton branch

 

[Sleepy]

The 0648 Southminster to Liverpool Street switches to DOO at Wickford whilst the 0737 from Southminster switches at South Woodham Ferrers.

I believe the switch occurs at the location where the full 12 coaches are deployed.

This is because 0737 does not call at Battlesbridge.

 

[Sleepy]

GA not that random - Sudbury line worked by 153/156 so no DOO. EMU DOO not permitted Colchester - Ipswich 12 car (DMU's 170 only) , everything else from Ipswich/Norwich guard operated (also Harwich line). Think Braintree branch also needs guard for 12 car operation.

 

[craigybagel]

GA not that random - Sudbury line worked by 153/156 so no DOO. EMU DOO not permitted Colchester - Ipswich 12 car (DMU's 170 only) , everything else from Ipswich/Norwich guard operated (also Harwich line). Think Braintree branch also needs guard for 12 car operation.

Braintree does indeed for 12 cars, which came in handy a few years back when a 156 ended up there. Pretty sure Clacton and Walton require guards as well (they certainly used to) but trains terminating at Colchester Town can be DOO.