Trivia: Strike-Induced Timetable Trivia

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JonathanH

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It isn’t actually possible for Southern to shunt from P2 to P1, despite it being electrified.
The set up at Reigate (or perhaps local arrangements) does allow shunting from platform 2 to platform 1 for an electric train via a reversal east of the crossover. I have seen it done but it is rare. I have caught a 377 from platform 1.
 

HST274

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Both worcester stations served solely by the operator that doesn't manage the station-gwr. Also platform 2 isn't used all day I guess?
 

Lewlew

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How about stations which have a better service on strike days than during a normal weekday?
Northampton, Wolverton, Milton Keynes Central, Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard all only have 1tph on non strike days but receive 2tph on strike days.
 

PTR 444

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Ticket sales will be used. Data should be available in a few days' time on the usual DfT page although figures will still be approximate until all sales settle in a few weeks' time.

I would expect less than 10% of normal passenger numbers.
Possible trivia questions relating to this topic could be:
  • Most used stations on the strike days
  • Biggest difference between passenger numbers at a station on strike days compared to normal operating days*
  • Stations with higher patronage on strike days than normal operating days*
  • Stations with no trains which still received passengers/had ticket sales on strike days
* could also be changed to “in between strike days”, as some places have an even lower level of service on those days than the actual strike days.
 

apinnard

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I hope not, as I haven’t started them yet!



to put it in context, there has been the equivalent of several months timetable changes done in about a week. Therefore the amount of checks done on it have been minimal, and errors like these will be much higher than normal. Which is one of the factors behind the wrong routings shown on the main thread.
Does that include routing the freight from the main to electrics at Shenfield and blocking a key set of points?
 

507020

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I hope not, as I haven’t started them yet!
Grant Shapps is the one who needs to hurry up, not you!
to put it in context, there has been the equivalent of several months timetable changes done in about a week. Therefore the amount of checks done on it have been minimal, and errors like these will be much higher than normal. Which is one of the factors behind the wrong routings shown on the main thread.
Is there not a list of ‘usual suspects’ which can be referred to where planning mishaps such as this are more likely than average to occur, the unusual arrangement at Reigate P2 following the intervention of Adolf Hitler in the Southern’s electrification plans being one of them?
The set up at Reigate (or perhaps local arrangements) does allow shunting from platform 2 to platform 1 for an electric train via a reversal east of the crossover. I have seen it done but it is rare. I have caught a 377 from platform 1.
The 510 signal doesn’t look to be bi-directional to me so shunting back into platform 1 wouldn’t be a signalled movement.
Does that include routing the freight from the main to electrics at Shenfield and blocking a key set of points?
Was it a freight that accepted the wrong route?
 

Watershed

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The initial figures I've heard for yesterday are that there were around 11% as many passengers as the equivalent pre-Covid day. Given that weekday volumes have hovered around 80-85% for the last couple of months, that means that yesterday they were around 13% of these post-Covid volumes.
 

43055

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Apparently Syston (Leics) is getting substantially more frequent trains during the strike days.
Yes up from about hourly with some 2 hour gaps to hourly all day. Same with what is left on the Crewe - Newark between Derby and Nottingham.

Interestingly the 0702 Crewe to Newark departed from platform 12 at Crewe this morning when normally it is from the bays between platforms 1 and 5.
 

Fokx

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Is any data being collected on passenger numbers over the strike days? If so, it would be trivia in itself to find comparisons between those and usual daily figures.
West Yorkshire PTE were counting passengers boarding and alighting at Mirfield today and monitoring who was using the car park as a park and ride
 

pdeaves

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'Between strike' trivia. Swindon had a direct service to Maidenhead today. It's a journey we used to make a lot but have no need to any more. A shame as the direct service would have been very convenient!
 

Bald Rick

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Is there not a list of ‘usual suspects’ which can be referred to where planning mishaps such as this are more likely than average to occur, the unusual arrangement at Reigate P2 following the intervention of Adolf Hitler in the Southern’s electrification plans being one of them?

the timetable planners know these ‘suspects’ off the top of their heads.

however when they have a couple of hours to check and process over 100,000 schedule changes, rather than 8 weeks, it is the safety issues that are dealt with, and nothing else.
 

zwk500

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Is there not a list of ‘usual suspects’ which can be referred to where planning mishaps such as this are more likely than average to occur
You are seriously overestimating the amount of time planners have had to put the strike plan together. Bear in mind that while the strike plan was being put together, the December 22 timetable was (is) also being prepared for the offer back to TOCs.
The 510 signal doesn’t look to be bi-directional to me so shunting back into platform 1 wouldn’t be a signalled movement.
By definition, Signals aren't bi-directional. There is a Shunt signal (RG17) immediately at the Redhill end of the crossover on the up, permitting movements from the Up Line back into the station. From what I can see at home it's not obvious if the route into the up platform is signalled, but 3rd rail on both lines goes through the platforms to just short of the level crossing so it may well be.
 

507020

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the timetable planners know these ‘suspects’ off the top of their heads.

however when they have a couple of hours to check and process over 100,000 schedule changes, rather than 8 weeks, it is the safety issues that are dealt with, and nothing else.
You are seriously overestimating the amount of time planners have had to put the strike plan together. Bear in mind that while the strike plan was being put together, the December 22 timetable was (is) also being prepared for the offer back to TOCs.
I was suggesting that a list of places where conflicts are likely might be faster to check than doing it at random.
By definition, Signals aren't bi-directional. There is a Shunt signal (RG17) immediately at the Redhill end of the crossover on the up, permitting movements from the Up Line back into the station. From what I can see at home it's not obvious if the route into the up platform is signalled, but 3rd rail on both lines goes through the platforms to just short of the level crossing so it may well be.
My understanding of it is that the only reason the 3rd rail runs out of platform 1 at Reigate is that the Southern Railway always intended to extend it further down the North Downs beyond the level crossing and the only reason this was not done was the outbreak of war.

I know signals themselves aren’t bi-directional. What I meant was that in places where reversals are needed to shunt into a siding or another platform, when a train is at a signal, there is another smaller signal with 2 lights at ground level facing the “wrong direction” at the other end of the train which can clear the reversing movement. According to the signalling diagram there is not one of these to allow access to P1 from the 510 signal at Reigate. Is it RG510? I am aware there is a box there.
 

Bald Rick

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I was suggesting that a list of places where conflicts are likely might be faster to check than doing it at random.

It’s never done at random.

What I am saying is that in these circumstances, there isn’t time to do any checks beyond those required for safety purposes.

The list of places where conflicts are likely is long, and Reigate is a long long way down it.
 

zwk500

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I was suggesting that a list of places where conflicts are likely might be faster to check than doing it at random.
It's not done at random, but it was done very quickly. Too quickly to go through many conflicts. It may even have been too quick to run the validation report.
My understanding of it is that the only reason the 3rd rail runs out of platform 1 at Reigate is that the Southern Railway always intended to extend it further down the North Downs beyond the level crossing and the only reason this was not done was the outbreak of war.
Quite possibly.
I know signals themselves aren’t bi-directional. What I meant was that in places where reversals are needed to shunt into a siding or another platform, when a train is at a signal, there is another smaller signal with 2 lights at ground level facing the “wrong direction” at the other end of the train which can clear the reversing movement. According to the signalling diagram there is not one of these to allow access to P1 from the 510 signal at Reigate. Is it RG510? I am aware there is a box there.
If you're going of open train times, it's missing the shunt signal off the back of 510's berth. As I mentioned, there is an RG17 shunt signal on the up line. The diagrams I have only show 1 route available from RG17 to the Down platform, but I'll have a check of the proper documents today to see if there is a 2nd route.
 

507020

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It’s never done at random.

What I am saying is that in these circumstances, there isn’t time to do any checks beyond those required for safety purposes.

The list of places where conflicts are likely is long, and Reigate is a long long way down it.
What’s an example of where a timetable would be unsafe?
If you're going of open train times, it's missing the shunt signal off the back of 510's berth. As I mentioned, there is an RG17 shunt signal on the up line. The diagrams I have only show 1 route available from RG17 to the Down platform, but I'll have a check of the proper documents today to see if there is a 2nd route.
I was going off open train times. If an appropriate signal exists that I’m not aware of then that’s good news and Southern must have access to Platform 1 with 2 reversals.
 

Envy123

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It seemed like LNER ran "commuter services" on the 21st June. I saw there was at least one that just ran non-stop to Peterborough and terminated there, and another which was all IC stations to Doncaster.

I wonder if this was out of awareness of commuters or just operational convenience.
 

zwk500

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What’s an example of where a timetable would be unsafe?
Trains booked through a prohibited route. Gauge Clearance, RA, that type of thing.
I was going off open train times. If an appropriate signal exists that I’m not aware of then that’s good news and Southern must have access to Platform 1 with 2 reversals.
Be aware that a lot of the OTT/Traksy type of sites omit Shunt/Subsidiary signals from the diagram completely in areas where there's no data for them. I have just checked the full signalling plan and there is a limit of shunt on the Up line, and 2 Routes are marked for RG17, so the shunt is 100% available.
 

rg177

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It seemed like LNER ran "commuter services" on the 21st June. I saw there was at least one that just ran non-stop to Peterborough and terminated there, and another which was all IC stations to Doncaster.

I wonder if this was out of awareness of commuters or just operational convenience.
Convenience mostly. Doncaster is the ideal place to terminate at a certain time of day as you can just send trains straight to Carr depot.

In the case of Peterborough, again, it's just as far as they could realistically run within the hours that a service can be expected to operate.

On a non-strike day, an ECS comes from Kings Cross in the small hours to get into position to operate the first train to London on a strike day.

At the end of a strike day, the last train terminating at Peterborough seems to remain there overnight and forms the first train into London.
 

Envy123

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Convenience mostly. Doncaster is the ideal place to terminate at a certain time of day as you can just send trains straight to Carr depot.

In the case of Peterborough, again, it's just as far as they could realistically run within the hours that a service can be expected to operate.

On a non-strike day, an ECS comes from Kings Cross in the small hours to get into position to operate the first train to London on a strike day.

At the end of a strike day, the last train terminating at Peterborough seems to remain there overnight and forms the first train into London.
Thank you. That clarifies it very well. :)
 

wellhouse

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TPE were operating a reduced mix of services on Wednesday 22nd June, including:
Leeds - Selby - Brough - Hull
York - Leeds - Dewsbury - Manchester Piccadilly
and one pattern I don't recall seeing before,:
York - Leeds - all stations to Stalybridge - Manchester Piccadilly
 

infobleep

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Timetable clash at Reigate all day today. Trains from Reigate to Reading scheduled to depart west at xx05 for most of the day. Southern occupy platform 2 from xx53-xx06.

Ideally, the Southern train would shunt from platform 2 to platform 1 between arrival and departure but it isn't happening.

North Downs services a mess punctuality wise a result.
Why isn't the train shunting? Does this happen on a normal Sunday?

Edit: Just seen it may not be possible. This then begs the question how did the clash occur when this is meant to be a Sunday timetable?

I accept it's a modified timetable but I was led to believe it was t possible to add in services.
 
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