Trivia: Unusual diesel loco combinations in the BR era

[Strathclyder]

Nice one, wouldn't fancy performance over the banks mind you!

Depends on where the 47 expired really. If it had conked out in or near Ayr, it wouldn't be that bad. Otherwise, it'd be a bit of a stagger to say the least!

Yes! I've gone back to fix that

I was briefly wondering, nay, second-guessing myself, if BR had actually reinstated a 24 in 1982 lol

Interstesting, I always associated them with the CR Mainline and Glasgow-Dundee/Aberdeen workings being replaced by A2/A3/A4s and Stanier 5s due to unreliability. Then appearing on GNoSR metals such as Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Buckie etc.

(OT)

The first batch when all were still 21s were indeed most associated with those duties after being punted north of the border from Hornsey, Stratford & Ipswich (to be closer to NBL for warranty repairs and to no doubt get them away from the prying eyes of the national press), as was D6123 after it's trial rebuilding at Paxman in Colchester in 1963. The 'Blue Star' batch (D6138-57, the most visible outward differences from the first batch being snowploughs and a modified cab side to enable the fitting of tablet catchers) were the ones that were most closely associated with the GNoSR routes for most of their short careers, with a handful being transferred to Eastfield in 1967-68 as the aforementioned routes succumbed to closure.

The rebuilt 29s were arguably most closely associated passenger service-wise with the West Highland Line before the arrival of the 26s/27s. Barring that, they were generally used on freight/trip work in/around the Central Belt.

(There is a famous photo of one crossing the Cullen viaducts with a two coach Aberdeen via Buckie service in the 60s.)

Would it be one of these, originally taken by Frank Spaven (now in his son David's collection on RailScot)? Cullen Burn Viaduct is the one in question here, the most prominent remnant of all the area's railway structures and of the former Moray Coast Railway generally.

Cullen Burn Viaduct - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

Cullen Burn Viaduct - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

 

[hexagon789]

Depends on where the 47 expired really. If it had conked out in or near Ayr, it wouldn't be that bad. Otherwise, it'd be a bit of a stagger to say the least!

Girvan would be the worst - the curvature, trees and gradient conspire to make a very challenging start.

The first batch when all were still 21s were indeed most associated with those duties after being punted north of the border from Hornsey, Stratford & Ipswich (to be closer to NBL for warranty repairs and to no doubt get them away from the prying eyes of the national press), as was D6123 after it's trial rebuilding at Paxman in Colchester in 1963. The 'Blue Star' batch (D6138-57, the most visible outward differences from the first batch being snowploughs and a modified cab side to enable the fitting of tablet catchers) were the ones that were most closely associated with the GNoSR routes for most of their short careers, with a handful being transferred to Eastfield in 1967-68 as the aforementioned routes succumbed to closure.

The rebuilt 29s were arguably most closely associated passenger service-wise with the West Highland Line before the arrival of the 26s/27s. Barring that, they were generally used on freight/trip work in/around the Central Belt.

Thank you for that explanation, very helpful.

Would it be one of these, originally taken by Frank Spaven (now in his son David's collection on RailScot)? Cullen Burn Viaduct is the one in question here, the most prominent remnant of all the area's railway structures and of the former Moray Coast Railway generally.

It was a passenger train of (IIRC) two coaches, it was in a book rather than online.

 

[Strathclyder]

Girvan would be the worst - the curvature, trees and gradient conspire to make a very challenging start.

And all that is without the potential for wet rails, which would make an already challenging start even worse.

Thank you for that explanation, very helpful.

Most of it is going off memories of my NBL Type 2 thread from last year, chances are that bits of it are wildly off the mark lol

It was a passenger train of (IIRC) two coaches, it was in a book rather than online.

Ah I see.

 

[marsker]

On 25/3/67 I went on a Grand Tour of Scotland, organised by BR(ScR). It was cheap and loaded to 18 coaches (some of them Bullied TSOs transferred in exchange for Mk 1 stock for conversion for the Bournemouth electrification) and gave rise to some interesting combinations:
D368+D1973 Edinburgh - Hawick - Carlisle - Motherwell - Perth
44997+60009 Perth - Aberdeen and Perth - Edinburgh
D5070+D5127 Aberdeen - Craigellachie - Aviemore
D5122+D5070+D5127 Aviemore - Perth
All in all, it was a great day out with the A4 & Black 5 achieving a mile a minute between Perth & Aberdeen.
Loco details from Six Bells Junction as I have long lost any notes I kept. I've only ever seen an odd photo of this train in the railway pres.

 

[Strathclyder]

On 25/3/67 I went on a Grand Tour of Scotland, organised by BR(ScR). It was cheap and loaded to 18 coaches (some of them Bullied TSOs transferred in exchange for Mk 1 stock for conversion for the Bournemouth electrification) and gave rise to some interesting combinations:
D368+D1973 Edinburgh - Hawick - Carlisle - Motherwell - Perth
44997+60009 Perth - Aberdeen and Perth - Edinburgh
D5070+D5127 Aberdeen - Craigellachie - Aviemore
D5122+D5070+D5127 Aviemore - Perth
All in all, it was a great day out with the A4 & Black 5 achieving a mile a minute between Perth & Aberdeen.
Loco details from Six Bells Junction as I have long lost any notes I kept. I've only ever seen an odd photo of this train in the railway pres.

That would be my particular highlight from that particular tour, barring the 40+47 combo. A trio of Rats giving it their all.

Edit: another suggestion - fifty wagon MGR hauled by twin 37s in multi and a 31 plus 56 in tandem!

Can't believe I missed this one! How on earth did such a combo come about?

 

[hexagon789]

And all that is without the potential for wet rails, which would make an already challenging start even worse.

I understand, even today, it's regarded as the most difficult start away from a station in Scotland.

Most of it is going off memories of my NBL Type 2 thread from last year, chances are that bits of it are wildly off the mark lol

I'm sure it's quite correct

Ah I see.

BTW, I think it is a photo of Spaven's, just not either of the two you linked.

Can't believe I missed this one! How on earth did such a combo come about?

Let me try and remember where I read of it!

So many sources to try and remember:

Flickr
Rmweb
RailGenArchive
Modern Railways
Railway Magazine

Probably others I've forgotten.

I will endeavour to locate the source abd if possible the reason behind the arrangement.

 

[D854_Tiger]

My first trip to the West Country from the West Midlands was a day out in Newton Abbot, chosen because it had a shed.

Train home was a Plymouth - Leeds XC hauled by a Peak + Western combination, sorry no numbers.

The Western came off at Temple Meads, I don't know how common this was but I had noticed at Newton Abbot how all the Liverpool and Manchester through trains (via Shrewsbury in those days) were all hydraulic worked, presumably with a loco change at Bristol.

 

[hexagon789]

My first trip to the West Country from the West Midlands was a day out in Newton Abbot, chosen because it had a shed.

Train home was a Plymouth - Leeds XC hauled by a Peak + Western combination, sorry no numbers.

The Western came off at Temple Meads, I don't know how common this was but I had noticed at Newton Abbot how all the Liverpool and Manchester through trains (via Shrewsbury in those days) were all hydraulic worked, presumably with a loco change at Bristol.

Any idea of the date?

RailGenArchive may have a record of the working.

 

[Richard Scott]

My first trip to the West Country from the West Midlands was a day out in Newton Abbot, chosen because it had a shed.

Train home was a Plymouth - Leeds XC hauled by a Peak + Western combination, sorry no numbers.

The Western came off at Temple Meads, I don't know how common this was but I had noticed at Newton Abbot how all the Liverpool and Manchester through trains (via Shrewsbury in those days) were all hydraulic worked, presumably with a loco change at Bristol.

Reading this reminded me of a picture in a railway magazine of 50014 and 46026 working in tandem in Devon.

 

[Strathclyder]

I understand, even today, it's regarded as the most difficult start away from a station in Scotland.

Which is no mean feat, considering some of the other candidates.

I'm sure it's quite correct

Yeah, but given my track record in this respect...

BTW, I think it is a photo of Spaven's, just not either of the two you linked.

Gotcha. Possibly taken on the same day, by the sounds of it.

Let me try and remember where I read of it!

So many sources to try and remember:

Flickr
Rmweb
RailGenArchive
Modern Railways
Railway Magazine

Probably others I've forgotten.

I will endeavour to locate the source abd if possible the reason behind the arrangement.

Cheers. The presence of the 56 may lend a clue as to what was going on there.

 

[hexagon789]

Which is no mean feat, considering some of the other candidates.

Very true, I think its because the station is on a curve and the gradient commences immediately as do lots of trees.

At least with say Queen Street for example, you can get up some speed exiting the platform before the climb to Cowlairs. Though Cowlairs bank is slightly softer a gradient as well, which probably helps!

Cheers. The presence of the 56 may lend a clue as to what was going on there.

I'm quite proud of myself, I actually found the original source - a post on rmweb.

I'll fish out a photograph I have from Morpeth in the late 80s, 50 MGR hoppers, hauled by 2 37s, 1 31 and a 56!

I keep fishing the photo out from time to time because nobody believes it, if memory serves the 56 was the train engine, the 31 was on a positioning move and the grid died, so the 31 limped the train as far as the Up loop and the 2 37s were sent out as relief. The 31 & 56 were in tandem but the 37s were in multiple.

From this 11-year old thread on rmweb on the subject of double-heading:

Doubleheading in the 1980's

Hi there, I model early/mid 80 diesels and I was wondering if doubleheaded trains ever used two locos of different classes. eg. did 25's ever doublehead with 26's/33's etc? I can't remember ever having seen a mixed pair! Drew

www.rmweb.co.uk

 

[Strathclyder]

Very true, I think its because the station is on a curve and the gradient commences immediately as do lots of trees.

At least with say Queen Street for example, you can get up some speed exiting the platform before the climb to Cowlairs. Though Cowlairs bank is slightly softer a gradient as well, which probably helps!

Aye, all those coalesce into one heck of a challenging getaway for any loco/unit.

I'm quite proud of myself, I actually found the original source - a post on rmweb.



From this 11-year old thread on rmweb on the subject of double-heading:

Doubleheading in the 1980's

Hi there, I model early/mid 80 diesels and I was wondering if doubleheaded trains ever used two locos of different classes. eg. did 25's ever doublehead with 26's/33's etc? I can't remember ever having seen a mixed pair! Drew

www.rmweb.co.uk

Great that you were able to find it. Not entirely surprised that it was largely the result of a loco failure lol

 

[matchmaker]

Aye, all those coalesce into one heck of a challenging getaway for any loco/unit.


Great that you were able to find it. Not entirely surprised that it was largely the result of a loco failure lol

There are many tales in David L Smiths books of problems at Girvan in both G&SWR and LMS days!

 

[hexagon789]

Not entirely

True, but the 31 was still going strong!

There are many tales in David L Smiths books of problems at Girvan in both G&SWR and LMS days!

I'm not sure how much of a problem it is for today's 156s, but I know the 126s often had to be gently coaxed away at barely walking pace on many occasions.

 

[D854_Tiger]

Any idea of the date?

RailGenArchive may have a record of the working.

It would have been around 1972

 

[Strathclyder]

True, but the 31 was still going strong!

Not surprising really. Tough little scrappers they were/are, despite the amount of stick they've gotten over the years.

There are many tales in David L Smiths books of problems at Girvan in both G&SWR and LMS days!

I can well imagine it being one heck of of a headache in the steam era generally.

 

[Harvester]

Remember seeing treble headed Class 37s on ore trains, at Cardiff Central in 1977. It must have been just before double headed 56s took over the workings.

 

[Western 52]

Remember seeing treble headed Class 37s on ore trains, at Cardiff Central in 1977. It must have been just before double headed 56s took over the workings.

I think the 56s started on those trains about 1979. I remember seeing 56036 at Canton that year as the first one to arrive in the area. It was the first one in large logo livery so really stood out.

 

[hexagon789]

Not surprising really. Tough little scrappers they were/are, despite the amount of stick they've gotten over the years.

Once re-engined they were quite good sloggers, if underpowered. I saw a log of one taking over a failed load 12 XC complete with failed 50 in consist from Paignton to Exeter (where a fresh 47 was waiting). The poor thing never topped 65 anywhere!

Remember seeing treble headed Class 37s on ore trains, at Cardiff Central in 1977. It must have been just before double headed 56s took over the workings.

Some triple 37s up here on steel workings iirc.

You also had triple 20s in Fife

 

[Strathclyder]

Once re-engined they were quite good sloggers, if underpowered.

Sluggish, but dependable once fitted with the EE lumps. Basically the same engine as in the 37s (12CSVT), just lacking the intercooler (12SVT).

I saw a log of one taking over a failed load 12 XC complete with failed 50 in consist from Paignton to Exeter (where a fresh 47 was waiting). The poor thing never topped 65 anywhere!

Not bad going exceeding 60 tbh, considering what was being asked of it. 12 coaches and a dead Hoover.

Some triple 37s up here on steel workings iirc.

Triple 37s were also common on MGRs to/from Ravenscraig Steelworks. IIRC, such trains were double-headed from it's point of origin (usually Hunterston) to Mossend, where a 3rd 37 was attached for the gradient up to Holytown.

 

[hexagon789]

Sluggish, but dependable once fitted with the EE lumps. Basically the same engine as in the 37s (12CSVT), just lacking the intercooler (12SVT).

Really the overlooked secondary workhorses, but at least they could get you home, even if slowly.

Not bad going exceeding 60 tbh, considering what was being asked of it. 12 coaches and a dead Hoover.

The highest speed I've ever seen in alog for a single 31 is 102mph, so they can do more I think than people give them credit for.

Triple 37s were also common on MGRs to/from Ravenscraig Steelworks. IIRC, such trains were double-headed from it's point of origin (usually Hunterston) to Mossend, where a 3rd 37 was attached for the gradient up to Holytown.

Indeed, I've also seen that video there plus another titled something along the lines of "Triple Tractor Thrash"

 

[Madge Wildfire]

Did the AC electrics ever work in multiple with different class numbers? Double heading of any kind (bar the 86/6) was always pretty rare though I believe.

Yes they did, on freight trains mainly. I have trawled through some of my mid-70s notes and saw

E3003+81022 at Pitstone 8 April 1974

81016+86205 at Watford 11 November 1975

83011+85014 at Watford 3 May 1976

81004+86024 near Crewe 15 November 1976

85034+81016 at Bletchley 9 March 1977

85037+83013 at Oxenholme 9 May 1977

Whether any of these were due to failures, I don't know.

I have added more, as I carried on looking and discovered an amazing day on August 2 1977

Three pairs passed through the station during the day.....

81002+85013 87007+86008 86012+85014

A Grand Union canal holiday produced...

86239+87008 near Leighton Buzzard 15 July 1978

84010+81005 near Brinklow 18 July 1978

86006+85007 near Rugby 18 July 1978

 

[43096]

Yes they did, on freight trains mainly. I have trawled through some of my mid-70s notes and saw

E3003+81022 at Pitstone 8 April 1974

81016+86205 at Watford 11 November 1975

83011+85014 at Watford 3 May 1976

81004+86024 near Crewe 15 November 1976

85034+81016 at Bletchley 9 March 1977

85037+83013 at Oxenholme 9 May 1977

Whether any of these were due to failures, I don't know.

I have added more, as I carried on looking and discovered an amazing day on August 2 1977

Three pairs passed through the station during the day.....

81002+85013 87007+86008 86012+85014

A Grand Union canal holiday produced...

86239+87008 near Leighton Buzzard 15 July 1978

84010+81005 near Brinklow 18 July 1978

86006+85007 near Rugby 18 July 1978

Bar possibly 87007+86008 none of those are "in multiple"; "in tandem" might be a better phrase?

 

[Strathclyder]

Really the overlooked secondary workhorses, but at least they could get you home, even if slowly.

Quite, and it's such locos that tend to get overlooked or earn the most scorn/derision, which I've never really understood despite the reasoning seemingly being obvious.

The highest speed I've ever seen in alog for a single 31 is 102mph, so they can do more I think than people give them credit for.

A lot more, yes. And most also seem to forget that, initial engine woes aside, they were otherwise solidly built. The installation of the EE prime mover just rounded things out.

Indeed, I've also seen that video there plus another titled something along the lines of "Triple Tractor Thrash"

I imagine 2 37s could handle the grade up to Holytown, but it was a painful slog with such a load and of course there was always the risk of the train slipping to a stop. The 3rd 37 being added at Mossend was the most sensible way of going about things.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Sluggish, but dependable once fitted with the EE lumps. Basically the same engine as in the 37s (12CSVT), just lacking the intercooler (12SVT).


Not bad going exceeding 60 tbh, considering what was being asked of it. 12 coaches and a dead Hoover.


Triple 37s were also common on MGRs to/from Ravenscraig Steelworks. IIRC, such trains were double-headed from it's point of origin (usually Hunterston) to Mossend, where a 3rd 37 was attached for the gradient up to Holytown.

Initially, the Ravenscraig trains were banked from Coatbridge

However there was an incident at Mossend when the banker spread a train all over the curve between Mossend North and Mossend East Junctions and the practice was changed to adding a pilot loco, initially these were class 20s, until later the 3rd 37 was added

Oddest pairing I had was a morning Perth to Carstairs train in 1971 which normally was either a 25, 26 or 27 working. The morning we caught it at Coatbridge a 50 was coupled in front of a 25, with both locos working. I assume it was a positioning move for the 50.

 

[londontransit]

For what its worth, I remember I remember a Liverpool Street to Norwich express being replaced by a three car DMU with a GUV attached at the rear - and the consist was hauled by a Class 47! This was sometime 1967-69 although I cant remember exactly. I was so excited by this I sat in the front saloon with a good view of the diesel ahead - it was strange going along at speed in a 'driverless' DMU.

For what its worth, I remember a Liverpool Street to Norwich express being replaced by a three car DMU with a GUV attached at the rear - and the consist was hauled by a Class 47! This was sometime 1967-69 although I cant remember exactly.

This is a rather good one of a 25 and 31 hauling an HST from this thread:

31218+25278+HST Set Approaching Milford Tunnel. 29/04/1986

31218 and 25278 power towards the northern portal of Milford Tunnel with a dead HST set in tow on April 29th 1986. ( This is a re-scan and process )

flic.kr

And a 33/25 combination at Lapford on the Barnstaple branch:

https://www.derbysulzers.com/33017lapford76.jpg

I know these are all blue star locos but I hadn’t seen many photos of them working together.

Not exactly relevant either but seeing this is 'Barnstaple' a Class 52 reached Ilfracombe on a service train so that was an unusual diesel combination - eg a diesel using a line the class wasn't authorised to use.

 

[Strathclyder]

Initially, the Ravenscraig trains were banked from Coatbridge
View attachment 117160

However there was an incident at Mossend when the banker spread a train all over the curve between Mossend North and Mossend East Junctions and the practice was changed to adding a pilot loco, initially these were class 20s, until later the 3rd 37 was added

View attachment 117161

Interesting, cheers for this extra info.

Oddest pairing I had was a morning Perth to Carstairs train in 1971 which normally was either a 25, 26 or 27 working. The morning we caught it at Coatbridge a 50 was coupled in front of a 25, with both locos working. I assume it was a positioning move for the 50.

I suspect so too, getting the 50 to Carstairs seems the most likely possibilty there. I presume it had worked up to Perth the night before?