[Trivia] What is the definition of a 'Parliamentary' train?

[Phil.]

Hmm, I'm confused here - it often doesn't take much. I was always under the impression that historically a parliamentary train was one that was run once a day with tickets priced particularly low for workers. These were required to be run at least once a day over every line.
Hence, stand on the London end of platforms 1/2 at Cambridge and where the continuation of platform 1 line runs under Hills Road bridge is the stretch that was always known as "parley siding". This being where the once per day parley ie parliamentary train was stabled.
???

 

[Requeststop]

STATIONS: (off the top of my head)
Tees-side Airport
Shippea Hill
Coombe Junction Halt
Polesworth
Lakenheath
Buckenham
Berney Arms
Clifton (Manchester)
Spooner Row
Pilning
Breich
Sugar Loaf
Chapelton
Lapford
Golf Street
Barry Links
Balmossie
Altnabreac
Kildonan
Scotscalder
Dunrobin Castle
Invershin
Culrain
Achanalt
Duncraig
Gainsborough Central
Kirton Lindsey
Brigg
New Clee
Heysham Port
Lelant
Reddish South
Denton
Longcross
Snaith
Rawcliffe
Hensall
Whitley Bridge

Are you sure that Lelant is a Parliamentary?

It does get a decent stopping service in the mornings and evenings weekdays though no request stops on a Saturday and 4 stopping services on a Sunday.

OK I am biased. Its the Station I used as a child to go back and forward to school in St Ives (1960 - 5) and to Penzance (1965 - 70). Like many in the village I was upset at being downgraded to a request stop after the Saltings monstrosity was built and the villagers campaigned hard to get the stopping services re-introduced in the morning and evenings. Hopefully the St Erth Park and ride will be approved sometime, and the Saltings station be closed and a full service be re-introduced back at Lelant where most of the villagers live closest to.

You can also guess why I chose my ID on this site.

 

[southern442]

Hmm, I'm confused here - it often doesn't take much. I was always under the impression that historically a parliamentary train was one that was run once a day with tickets priced particularly low for workers. These were required to be run at least once a day over every line.
Hence, stand on the London end of platforms 1/2 at Cambridge and where the continuation of platform 1 line runs under Hills Road bridge is the stretch that was always known as "parley siding". This being where the once per day parley ie parliamentary train was stabled.
???

I suppose that would count as it is run to avoid the closure of a certain stretch of line.

 

[Phil.]

I suppose that would count as it is run to avoid the closure of a certain stretch of line.

No, you misunderstand me. An act of parliament decreed that every line had to have at least one train per day with particularly low prices for workers.

 

[najaB]

No, you misunderstand me. An act of parliament decreed that every line had to have at least one train per day with particularly low prices for workers.

But does that statute still stand? If not, then I say that the definition of what is/isn't a 'parliamentary' service has to refer to current legislation. Since it's always meant "a service that's run solely to meet the requirements of current legislation".

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Surely the phrase should be 'statutory service' rather than Parliamentary - the definition for which is given above (cheap workers tickets in times of old) i.e. the service is run for statutory reasons only (to avoid formal closure proceedings ) and the service has no meaningful purpose to the general travelling public.

I'll stick with Parliamentary (or Statutory) being a single service per week. I might 'go large' and count a single service in each direction if the line / station is two track / platforms. Anything else is merely a minimal service - of no practical use to the general public and perhaps, as referred to, being for operational convenience - but they are not Parliamentary / Statutory. Of course, if a service runs say 5 days per week, once in each direction, i.e. 10 individual trips per week, then one / two of those would be the statutory provision.

Many are run in marginal time, outside of the peaks - as with the diagram for the Wembley - Ruislip - Paddington - Ruislip - Marylebone service I sampled this week. Others, such as the Leeds to Goole service, make good use of rolling stock at the shoulder of the peak - the train could not get back to Leeds to do another evening peak service so it might as well jog off to Goole carrying a few commuters. When I travelled on that service, there were locals travelling between the rural stations. I assume they get a lift or a bus back.

But how would you classify Norton Bridge, Barlaston and Wedgwood - with no rail service for over a decade? A parliamentary bus service!

Or Polesworth with one train per weekday in one direction only.

@Backontrack - I'll look at my list tomorrow.

 

[bramling]

Well the North Curve service on the Met could be classed as parliamentary as it runs one service a day.

North Curve is an obscure one, as the workings are really to get Watford journeys from or to Rickmansworth, where the trains and drivers are based.

Whilst undoubtedly there are people who may find the trips useful, the route isn't even shown on the map. It's conceivable that if operating needs were to change, LU could produce a timetable which didn't use the curve. Then it would be down to rusty rails moves only.

It's unlikely to happen, but would be hard to make a case against closure should it ever come on the table.

Not sure it counts as parliamentary since the trips are for operational reasons more than anything else.

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course, if a service runs say 5 days per week, once in each direction, i.e. 10 individual trips per week, then one / two of those would be the statutory provision.

There was some written evidence supporting your point in the closure consultation report for that Southern service that was introduced a few years ago to cover the short section of the former Ealing Broadway to Wandsworth Rd XC route; namely between Longhedge and Factory Junctions.

The rail service between Kensington (Olympia) and Wandsworth Road/Clapham High Street currently has no ongoing costs to the DfT. This is because although the SLC agreed in Sept 2009 requires Southern to run this service weekly, the TOC actually chooses to run it daily as this suits its own rolling stock management requirements.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/2708/consultation.pdf

DfT were quite clear that it was Southern's operational choice to run it 5 days a week, this was not a requirement of DfT. At the end the route was being considered in three separate sub-sections, two of them only had the weekly 'ghost bus'.

The whole report gives interesting background into why they can end up with a situation where it is just easier to leave the token service in place. In this example trains still run over the route, because SN need the route knowledge. London Travelwatch didn't appear to get their heads round that in their response to the consultation, repeatedly stating their misunderstanding that the route would be closed, rather than the service would be ended.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The whole report gives interesting background into why they can end up with a situation where it is just easier to leave the token service in place. In this example trains still run over the route, because SN need the route knowledge. London Travelwatch didn't appear to get their heads round that in their response to the consultation, repeatedly stating their misunderstanding that the route would be closed, rather than the service would be ended.

There lies an argument. Is it the service or the line which is statutorily protected. Or which ought to be protected? A train service could run between station A and station B by two different routes. If one service is stopped and the other increased by the same number of trains to compensate, has a service been removed? From an enthusiast point of view, the chance to 'get that line' is lost, but for the ordinary passenger there is no real loss - providing the routes are much the same length.

Many years ago, when BR still ran holidaymaker trains, closure notices were published for the short curve at Hull (West Parade Junction to Anlaby Road Junction) which allowed direct working from Yorkshire industrial heartlands to the Yorkshire coast on summer Saturdays. Personally I think the loss of the through service is more important than the loss of a short curve - in future requiring a few extra minutes for reversal in Hull station.

The following is my list of little served stations, based on the Summer 2014 timetable so it may need updating.

Station - Service level – trains per week

Newhaven Marine - No service - 0
Weymouth Quay - No service - 0
Barlaston - Bus replacement - 0
Norton Bridge - Bus replacement - 0
Wedgwood - Bus replacement - 0

Reddish South - 1 per week (Friday) in one direction only - 1
Denton - 1 per week (Friday) in one direction only - 1
Bordesley - 1 per week (Saturday) in one direction only - 1
Pilning - 1 per week (Saturday) in both directions - 2
Tees-side Airport - 1 per week (Sunday) in both directions - 2
Polesworth - 1 per day (M-S) in one direction only - 6
Brigg - 3 per day (S) in both directions - 6
Gainsborough Central - 3 per day (S) in both directions - 6
Kirton Lindsay - 3 per day (S) in both directions - 6
Shippea Hill - 1 per day (M-F) in one direction, 1 in both directions on Saturday - 7
Lakenheath - 2 trains on Saturday, 7 trains on Sunday - 9
Buckenham - 2 trains on Saturday, 8 trains on Sunday - 10
Combe - 1 per day (M-F) in both directions - 10
Finstock - 1 per day (M-F) in both directions - 10
Ascott-under-Wychwood - per day (M-F) in both directions - 10
British Steel Redcar - 1 per day (M-F) in both directions, 1 on Saturday in one direction only - 11
Balmossie - 1 per day (M-S) in both directions - 12
Barry Links - 1 per day (M-S) in both directions - 12
Breich - 1 per day (M-S) in both directions - 12
Clifton - 1 per day (M-S) in both directions - 12
Elton & Orton - 1 per day (M-S) in both directions - 12
Golf Street - 1 per day (M-S) in both directions - 12
Heysham Harbour - 1 per day (M-S) in both directions, 2 (Su) - 16
Spooner Row - 2 per day (M-F) to Norwich, 1 per day (M-F) to Cambridge, 1 each way on Saturday - 17
Rawcliffe - 2 per day (M-S) to Leeds, 1 per day (M-S) to Goole - 18
Snaith - 2 per day (M-S) to Leeds, 1 per day (M-S) to Goole - 18
Hensall - 2 per day (M-S) to Leeds, 1 per day (M-S) to Goole - 18
Whitley Bridge - 2 per day (M-S) to Leeds, 1 per day (M-S) to Goole - 18
Ardwick - 2 per day (M-F) in both directions - 20
Havenhouse - 2 per day (S) in both directions - 24
Thorpe Culvert - 2 per day (S) in both directions - 24
Hubberts Bridge - 2 per day (M-S) in both directions - 24
Eastrington - 5 per day (M-S) combined - 30
Salwick - 3 per day (M-F) in both directions, 5 combined (S) - 35
Wressle - 3 per day (M-S) in both directions - 36
Rauceby - 3 per day (M-S) in both directions - 36
Pegswood - 3 per day (M-S) combined - 18
Widdrington - 3 per day (M-S) combined - 18
Acklington - 3 per day (M-S) combined - 18
Chathill - 2 per day (M-S) in both directions - 24
Coombe Junction Halt - 2 per day (M-S) in both directions - 24

Beyond these numbers you get stations throughout deep rural routes such as the Kyle of Lochalsh line, West Highland Line, Far North Line (top end) and Heart of Wales line where the whole service level is low at around 3 trains per day each way, around the 36 to 42 trains per week level

Okehampton - seasonal
Sampford courtney - seasonal
Quanton Road - excursion

 

[AndrewE]

Beyond these numbers you get stations throughout deep rural routes such as the Kyle of Lochalsh line, West Highland Line, Far North Line (top end) and Heart of Wales line where the whole service level is low at around 3 trains per day each way, around the 36 to 42 trains per week level

So this isn't really relevant to the "Parliamentary" discussion then, as every train on the line stops...
A

 

[Boothby97]

New Clee

All Cleethorpes to Barton-on-Humber services now call at New Clee (have done since December timetable change) so I wouldn't have said its a parliamentary station.

 

[Agent_c]

STATIONS: (off the top of my head)
Dunrobin Castle
Invershin
Culrain

These are request stops, but not parliamentary services.... Any of the Far North trains will stop there if flagged or if you buy a ticket.

 

[najaB]

These are request stops, but not parliamentary services.... Any of the Far North trains will stop there if flagged or if you buy a ticket.

splitting hairs, but Dunrobin Castle is only a stop for half the year - when the castle is open to visitors.

 

[Agent_c]

splitting hairs, but Dunrobin Castle is only a stop for half the year - when the castle is open to visitors.

I don't think there is a hair-split at all. it might only be open on the summer timetable, but during the summer timetable its 3 services a day in both directions.

The other two stops are open all year.

 

[swt_passenger]

There lies an argument. Is it the service or the line which is statutorily protected. Or which ought to be protected? A train service could run between station A and station B by two different routes.

I don't think there's any argument. When I read them a couple of years ago the DfT's published closure procedures quite clearly differentiated between 'withdrawal of services' 'and 'closure of network', and of course 'closure of stations'.

My thinking is that I'd expect a specialist organisation such as LTW to be fully aware of this; unless of course they were trying to confuse the issue intentionally to drum up objections...

 

[Baxenden Bank]

So this isn't really relevant to the "Parliamentary" discussion then, as every train on the line stops...
A

It is relevant because the discussion is about where 'parliamentary' begins and ends.

Some posters put forward stations as receiving a 'parliamentary' service when that same station receives, per week, more services than stations on the deep rural lines mentioned. Few trains used to call at Carstairs, despite many dozens passing through each day, yet I never heard it referred to as 'parliamentary'.

 

[Agent_c]

It is relevant because the discussion is about where 'parliamentary' begins and ends.

If a station that has three services in each direction a day is a Parliamentary service, then we might as well define the entire Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor as a Parliamentary service on the grounds that Scotrail is obligated to operate it at certain times - its just getting crazy.

I think at the core of it we can all agree a "parliamentary" service is a token service that is in no way an attempt to run the service in a way that is usable - juding by the amount of people who have been on the far north line every time I've been on it, and the times it operates, its timing for ferry connections, and the attempts by Scotrail to promote it (including chartering a steam service to Dunrobin Castle) it aint no parliamentary train.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If a station that has three services in each direction a day is a Parliamentary service, then we might as well define the entire Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor as a Parliamentary service on the grounds that Scotrail is obligated to operate it at certain times - its just getting crazy.

I think at the core of it we can all agree a "parliamentary" service is a token service that is in no way an attempt to run the service in a way that is usable - juding by the amount of people who have been on the far north line every time I've been on it, and the times it operates, its timing for ferry connections, and the attempts by Scotrail to promote it (including chartering a steam service to Dunrobin Castle) it aint no parliamentary train.

I merely listed the stations receiving the lowest level of service, I do not put forward the full list as being parliamentary. Hence the comment that 36 to 42 trains is actually the full weekly service in many locations, thus there is no point in listing further stations beyond the 36 threshold.

I voted for the 1 service per week option, which seems to be the majority view (2/3rds at present)

From my list, only Denton and Reddish South are truly parliamentary (and the service between Stockport and Guide Bridge, and the same section of line. Bordesley generally fits the definition but had loads of football extra stops last night. If I actually used the one scheduled service on Saturday would I be able to exit the station or is it gated and locked?

Pilning and Tees-side Airport are parliamentary if you have to serve both platforms rather than simply serving the station once. Otherwise they are receiving double the necessary service!

Brigg, Gainsborough Central, Kirton Lindsay and Polesworth 6 times the statutorily necessary service!

 

[Kite159]

I merely listed the stations receiving the lowest level of service, I do not put forward the full list as being parliamentary. Hence the comment that 36 to 42 trains is actually the full weekly service in many locations, thus there is no point in listing further stations beyond the 36 threshold.

I voted for the 1 service per week option, which seems to be the majority view (2/3rds at present)

From my list, only Denton and Reddish South are truly parliamentary (and the service between Stockport and Guide Bridge, and the same section of line. Bordesley generally fits the definition but had loads of football extra stops last night. If I actually used the one scheduled service on Saturday would I be able to exit the station or is it gated and locked?

Pilning and Tees-side Airport are parliamentary if you have to serve both platforms rather than simply serving the station once. Otherwise they are receiving double the necessary service!

Brigg, Gainsborough Central, Kirton Lindsay and Polesworth 6 times the statutorily necessary service!

You can exit Bordesley on the one service a week during non football days, although like Polesworth I would imagine the gates get locked up pretty sharpish after the service departs.

 

[backontrack]

are you sure that lelant is a parliamentary?

It does get a decent stopping service in the mornings and evenings weekdays though no request stops on a saturday and 4 stopping services on a sunday.

Ok i am biased. Its the station i used as a child to go back and forward to school in st ives (1960 - 5) and to penzance (1965 - 70). Like many in the village i was upset at being downgraded to a request stop after the saltings monstrosity was built and the villagers campaigned hard to get the stopping services re-introduced in the morning and evenings. Hopefully the st erth park and ride will be approved sometime, and the saltings station be closed and a full service be re-introduced back at lelant where most of the villagers live closest to.

You can also guess why i chose my id on this site.

there lies an argument. Is it the service or the line which is statutorily protected. Or which ought to be protected? A train service could run between station a and station b by two different routes. If one service is stopped and the other increased by the same number of trains to compensate, has a service been removed? From an enthusiast point of view, the chance to 'get that line' is lost, but for the ordinary passenger there is no real loss - providing the routes are much the same length.

Many years ago, when br still ran holidaymaker trains, closure notices were published for the short curve at hull (west parade junction to anlaby road junction) which allowed direct working from yorkshire industrial heartlands to the yorkshire coast on summer saturdays. Personally i think the loss of the through service is more important than the loss of a short curve - in future requiring a few extra minutes for reversal in hull station.

The following is my list of little served stations, based on the summer 2014 timetable so it may need updating.

Station - service level – trains per week

newhaven marine - no service - 0
weymouth quay - no service - 0
barlaston - bus replacement - 0
norton bridge - bus replacement - 0
wedgwood - bus replacement - 0

reddish south - 1 per week (friday) in one direction only - 1
denton - 1 per week (friday) in one direction only - 1
bordesley - 1 per week (saturday) in one direction only - 1
pilning - 1 per week (saturday) in both directions - 2
tees-side airport - 1 per week (sunday) in both directions - 2
polesworth - 1 per day (m-s) in one direction only - 6
brigg - 3 per day (s) in both directions - 6
gainsborough central - 3 per day (s) in both directions - 6
kirton lindsay - 3 per day (s) in both directions - 6
shippea hill - 1 per day (m-f) in one direction, 1 in both directions on saturday - 7
lakenheath - 2 trains on saturday, 7 trains on sunday - 9
buckenham - 2 trains on saturday, 8 trains on sunday - 10
combe - 1 per day (m-f) in both directions - 10
finstock - 1 per day (m-f) in both directions - 10
ascott-under-wychwood - per day (m-f) in both directions - 10
british steel redcar - 1 per day (m-f) in both directions, 1 on saturday in one direction only - 11
balmossie - 1 per day (m-s) in both directions - 12
barry links - 1 per day (m-s) in both directions - 12
breich - 1 per day (m-s) in both directions - 12
clifton - 1 per day (m-s) in both directions - 12
elton & orton - 1 per day (m-s) in both directions - 12
golf street - 1 per day (m-s) in both directions - 12
heysham harbour - 1 per day (m-s) in both directions, 2 (su) - 16
spooner row - 2 per day (m-f) to norwich, 1 per day (m-f) to cambridge, 1 each way on saturday - 17
rawcliffe - 2 per day (m-s) to leeds, 1 per day (m-s) to goole - 18
snaith - 2 per day (m-s) to leeds, 1 per day (m-s) to goole - 18
hensall - 2 per day (m-s) to leeds, 1 per day (m-s) to goole - 18
whitley bridge - 2 per day (m-s) to leeds, 1 per day (m-s) to goole - 18
ardwick - 2 per day (m-f) in both directions - 20
havenhouse - 2 per day (s) in both directions - 24
thorpe culvert - 2 per day (s) in both directions - 24
hubberts bridge - 2 per day (m-s) in both directions - 24
eastrington - 5 per day (m-s) combined - 30
salwick - 3 per day (m-f) in both directions, 5 combined (s) - 35
wressle - 3 per day (m-s) in both directions - 36
rauceby - 3 per day (m-s) in both directions - 36
pegswood - 3 per day (m-s) combined - 18
widdrington - 3 per day (m-s) combined - 18
acklington - 3 per day (m-s) combined - 18
chathill - 2 per day (m-s) in both directions - 24
coombe junction halt - 2 per day (m-s) in both directions - 24

beyond these numbers you get stations throughout deep rural routes such as the kyle of lochalsh line, west highland line, far north line (top end) and heart of wales line where the whole service level is low at around 3 trains per day each way, around the 36 to 42 trains per week level

okehampton - seasonal
sampford courtney - seasonal
quanton road - excursion

all cleethorpes to barton-on-humber services now call at new clee (have done since december timetable change) so i wouldn't have said its a parliamentary station.

these are request stops, but not parliamentary services.... Any of the far north trains will stop there if flagged or if you buy a ticket.

GUYS! Remember my earlier post?

i'm not sure that dunrobin castle can be classed as a station that receives only a parliamentary service. It is a seasonal station that opens just before easter and closes sometime in the autumn. When it is open it gets 3 trains per day in each direction.

sugar loaf is a request stop for all atw trains that are scheduled to run through, (think there are four a day in each direction, as are many other stations on the howl). Lapford also gets (i think) four trains a day in each direction. Portsmouth arms on the same line gets a less frequent service, similar to that of chapelton (2 a day in each direction?).

I'd add pilning to the list getting one train a week in each direction (on saturdays).

I personally would say a parlimentary train/service is an absolute minimum (nothing more than one train in each direction a week) running for operational reasons and not for passenger convenience.

Stations like chapelton that get a service of two a day (in each direction) will often run in the morning/evening peak, making it vaguely usable to anyone who would use it to commute. Compare that to pilning, or some stations northern rail run - near impossible.

ah. I was not just counting parliamentary stations, but also ones with low usage. As the first post says:

this may have been covered before but lets get on with it: List any parliamentary trains or rarely-used stations that you know of.

a good shout on pilning, though! :d