Trivia: Which county towns do not have an InterCity service?

[adrock1976]

Following on from this post and a couple of others before it in https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...vices-calling-at-northampton-post-hs2.210686/

I don't see why Northampton needs an InterCity service, is the demand there? After all, Northampton is such a dump I don't think people there could afford the overpriced InterCity fares anyway.

Are there many other county towns that do not have a traditional InterCity service presently? For clarity, I also include places that did at one time or never had a railway line constructed.

I am thinking of:

Wick (Caithness)
Dornoch (Sutherland)
Lochgilphead (Argyll)
Clackmannan (Clackmannanshire)
Appleby and Kendal (Westmoreland)
Mold (Clwyd)
Caernarfon (Gwynedd)

Those are the ones I can think of at the moment. Furthermore, I am unsure about Middlesbrough (Cleveland) as I cannot remember if they have had a universal declaration of independence or have rejoined Yorkshire again (or left again).

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridge, presuming you don't count XC's Turbostar services as "Intercity".

 

[steamybrian]

Maidstone the county town of Kent.

 

[Right Away]

Following on from this post and a couple of others before it in https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...vices-calling-at-northampton-post-hs2.210686/



Are there many other county towns that do not have a traditional InterCity service presently? For clarity, I also include places that did at one time or never had a railway line constructed.

I am thinking of:

Wick (Caithness)
Dornoch (Sutherland)
Lochgilphead (Argyll)
Clackmannan (Clackmannanshire)
Appleby and Kendal (Westmoreland)
Mold (Clwyd)
Caernarfon (Gwynedd)

Those are the ones I can think of at the moment. Furthermore, I am unsure about Middlesbrough (Cleveland) as I cannot remember if they have had a universal declaration of independence or have rejoined Yorkshire again (or left again).

Somebody mentioned the 'c' word again! In true Railforums style, expect this one to end up as a debate on what constitutes a 'county'.

Are there many other county towns that do not have a traditional InterCity service presently? For clarity, I also include places that did at one time or never had a railway line constructed.

It also depends on how 'InterCity' is defined. Somewhere like Dorchester has a decent inter city style service but the trains would have been operated under the Network SouthEast umbrella and not the Intercity sector.

 

[Mojo]

Quite a few I’d have
thought.

Aylesbury (Buckinghamshire)
Hertford (Hertfordshire)
Lewes (East Sussex)
Chichester (West Sussex)
Warwick (Warwickshire)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Somebody mentioned the 'c' word again! In true Railforums style, expect this one to end up as a debate on what constitutes a 'county'.


It also depends on how 'InterCity' is defined. Somewhere like Dorchester has a decent inter city style service but the trains would have been operated under the Network SouthEast umbrella and not the Intercity sector.

*And* it depends on what you count as a county town - then (and when's then?) and now.

So we can add

Berkshire - Abingdon (superseded by Reading)
Middlesex - Brentford
Surrey - Kingston-upon-Thames
Isle of Wight - Newport

And would anyone like to argue one way or the other for

Lincolnshire - Lincoln
East Riding of Yorkshire - Beverley

 

[infobleep]

*And* it depends on what you count as a county town - then (and when's then?) and now.

So we can add

Berkshire - Abingdon (superseded by Reading)
Middlesex - Brentford
Surrey - Kingston-upon-Thames
Isle of Wight - Newport

And would anyone like to argue one way or the other for

Lincolnshire - Lincoln
East Riding of Yorkshire - Beverley

Surrey are relocating from Kingston upon Thames. I can't remember if they have left yet. The new headquarters I think might be in Woking but equally they might be spreading out more to multiple places.

As for Kingston upon Thames. It hasn't been in the county of Surrey since 1965, when it became part of Greater London.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

As for Kingston upon Thames. It hasn't been in the county of Surrey since 1965, when it became part of Greater London.

@Right Away seems to have a winner from post #4...

 

[PG]

Wiltshire - current county town of Trowbridge has no Intercity type service, while the previous county town of Wilton had lost both its stations by 1966.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Wiltshire - current county town of Trowbridge has no Intercity type service, while the previous county town of Wilton had lost both its stations by 1966.

There is a direct service to Paddington on Monday to Fridays if you’re prepared for an 0546 departure!

As Matlock is the county town of Derbyshire I would say that qualifies as lacking an intercity service.

 

[KNotts]

Matlock, the county town of Derbyshire.

 

[Right Away]

Wiltshire - current county town of Trowbridge has no Intercity type service, while the previous county town of Wilton had lost both its stations by 1966.

I was musing over Trowbridge. Does the one weekday service to Paddington count as Intercity? It is effectively a glorified Kennet Valley NSE service but is operated by the former Intercity part of GWR. The can of worms is well and truly open on this topic!

 

[john prytherch]

Monmouth (closed 1959) and Brecon (closed 1962) have no service at all, never mind an Inter-City one!

 

[BluePenguin]

Maidstone!! The county town of Kent but for the most part only has a very slow service to London Victoria/Blackfriars. A far cry from the all day high speed service that Canterbury receives which is, admittedly more of a popular destination. As the only city in Kent, Canterbury deserves to be the county town anyway.

There are peak time Javelins to St Pancras from Maidstone West although if comparing apples to apples these cannot as InterCity services.


Lewes is the county town of East Sussex although also lacks an InterCity service, especially since stops were added between Lewes and Brighton. Chichester, the county town of West Sussex also lacks a proper InterCity-style service. However, manages well with regional services to Portsmouth, Southampton, Brighton and Littlehampton

Cambridge, presuming you don't count XC's Turbostar services as "Intercity".

Definitely not the Turbostars! Although I would argue that the express services to Kings Cross run by Great Northern would count as InterCity?

 

[HullRailMan]

In the East Riding of Yorkshire, the county town of Beverley does get an Intercity service from Hull Trains, though not every day. No Intercity service for the town though from a franchised operator.

 

[DarloRich]

Middlesbrough

 

[ashkeba]

Definitely not the Turbostars! Although I would argue that the express services to Kings Cross run by Great Northern would count as InterCity?

Electrostars are not InterCity any more than Turbostars! The occasional Cambridge FLIRT to Liverpool Street that I think might run in future will be closer to InterCity standard but not express.

Huntingdon also lacks InterCity. Does EMR send any intercity trains to Oakham?

 

[BluePenguin]

Electrostars are not InterCity any more than Turbostars! The occasional Cambridge FLIRT to Liverpool Street that I think might run in future will be closer to InterCity standard but not express.

Depends on what you consider makes a service InterCity or not I guess. Whether it has reservations, a buffet shop or first class. Electrostars are used all over the south east on limited stop services. Gatwick Express for example used to be run with InterCity stock but today by Electrostars. Has it lost its label as an InterCity route despite running to Brighton now too?

I would argue the stock used is insignificant but that an InterCity service must travel at 100mph or more, not call at suburban stations and be an express between significant towns or cities e.g CrossCountry.

I believe Cambridge to Kings Cross non stop is as much an InterCity service as from York. If not definitely Kings Lynn. Both are express services that match the above criteria

 

[Ianno87]

Depends on what you consider makes a service InterCity or not I guess. Whether it has reservations, a buffet shop or first class. Electrostars are used all over the south east on limited stop services. Gatwick Express for example used to be run with InterCity stock but today by Electrostars. Has it lost its label as an InterCity route despite running to Brighton now too?

I would argue the stock used is insignificant but that an InterCity service must travel at 100mph or more, not call at suburban stations and be an express between significant towns or cities e.g CrossCountry.

I believe Cambridge to Kings Cross non stop is as much an InterCity service as from York. If not definitely Kings Lynn. Both are express services that match the above criteria

Hardly 'Express' from King's Lynn when they call at Waterbeach, Littleport, Watlington etc.

It's an Outer Suburban service.

 

[BluePenguin]

Hardly 'Express' from King's Lynn when they call at Waterbeach, Littleport, Watlington etc.

It's an Outer Suburban service.

That is true. From Cambridge to London only perhaps

 

[infobleep]

Hardly 'Express' from King's Lynn when they call at Waterbeach, Littleport, Watlington etc.

It's an Outer Suburban service.

What about things like the very old Alanatic Coast Express. That would surely have been intercity, had it survived, yet at the ends of each or some portions journey wasn't it a stopping service?

 

[43066]

Depends on what you consider makes a service InterCity or not I guess. Whether it has reservations, a buffet shop or first class. Electrostars are used all over the south east on limited stop services. Gatwick Express for example used to be run with InterCity stock but today by Electrostars. Has it lost its label as an InterCity route despite running to Brighton now too?

I would argue the stock used is insignificant but that an InterCity service must travel at 100mph or more, not call at suburban stations and be an express between significant towns or cities e.g CrossCountry.

Gatwick express is 90mph max due to the line speed on the BML.

 

[30907]

What about things like the very old Alanatic Coast Express. That would surely have been intercity, had it survived, yet at the ends of each or some portions journey wasn't it a stopping service?

Taking its destinations as Ilfracombe and Padstow (the split at Exeter) then the Ilfracombe was one stop only from St Davids to Barnstaple, the Padstow fast to Okehampton thence semi-fast (summer)/all stations (winter).
But there are intercity type trains in Cornwall all stations beyond Liskeard, and so on.
And - back OT - the ACE didn't serve any county town west of Exeter (though Launceston was the Assize town at one time apparently).

 

[tbtc]

Maybe, as a starting point, you could at least agree on a common definition of what is a county and what is a county town - e.g. is this map helpful? https://wikishire.co.uk/map/#/centre=54.420,-1.509/zoom=9

Are we talking about modern day government administration boundaries or historic ones? And, within each one, are you talking about where the "county town" actually is today or where it was for a hundred years?

I would argue that the express services to Kings Cross run by Great Northern would count as InterCity?

Depends on what you consider makes a service InterCity or not I guess. Whether it has reservations, a buffet shop or first class. Electrostars are used all over the south east on limited stop services. Gatwick Express for example used to be run with InterCity stock but today by Electrostars. Has it lost its label as an InterCity route despite running to Brighton now too?

I would argue the stock used is insignificant but that an InterCity service must travel at 100mph or more, not call at suburban stations and be an express between significant towns or cities e.g CrossCountry.

I believe Cambridge to Kings Cross non stop is as much an InterCity service as from York. If not definitely Kings Lynn. Both are express services that match the above criteria

The problem we have is that we are lumbered with the legacy of the routes that BR decided to brand as InterCity, which was more about "which services are actually operationally profitable", rather than any specific definition relating to the type of train service - so Gatwick Express was lucrative enough to warrant being part of the InterCity sector (because it's profitable if you are charging people a premium fare to an Airport) even though Gatwick isn't a city... but the service linking Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Newcastle was "TransPennine" rather than "InterCity".

There's then the problem that some bona fide "InterCity" services are effectively the local stopper beyond a certain point from London, because they've taken the path that a local train would have otherwise used - so you can take a 125mph train from Ladybank to Markinch or from Par to Bodmin Parkway because, whilst XC run relatively fast from Edinburgh to Bristol, they are a local train for local people at the extremes of the network. Same with the Kings Lynn services discussed above. I'm sure we had a thread about it a while ago but I can't find it.

Also, we have enthusiasts who treat units like the 350s (which run at speeds faster than 100mph) as "outer suburban" because of the door position, so it's hard to get anyone to agree on where to draw the line... did Leeds - Manchester get upgraded from "Provincial" to "InterCIty" when TPE replaced the middle door 185s with 802s/ Mk5s? Was Preston - Hazel Grove "InterCity" when Northern ran it with hired in 125mph 180s?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Middlesbrough

TPE is an Inter-City operator by pretty much any useful definition. It's only door-snobbery that leads such places to be mentioned here IMO.

 

[DarloRich]

TPE is an Inter-City operator by pretty much any useful definition. It's only door-snobbery that leads such places to be mentioned here IMO.

No, it is not. It is a regional service.

 

[fishquinn]

No, it is not. It is a regional service.

Spot on, no way would TPE be considered an intercity service (particularly the routes operated by 185s like Middlesbrough)

 

[DarloRich]

Spot on, no way would TPE be considered an intercity service (particularly the routes operated by 185s like Middlesbrough)

it is nothing to do with the rolling stock. That is perfectly good.

 

[43066]

No, it is not. It is a regional service.

I’m not sure why this is always so controversial.

For me the meaning of “InterCity” will always be tied in to what it meant under post sectorisation BR: long distance express services that were Swallow liveried, operated by HSTs or loco hauled, with mk 3 and 4 rolling stock.

So today that really only means GWR (mainline), Avanti, EMR (mainline), XC, LNER and GA (mainline), all of which operate today using equivalent stock. Gatex has arguably been downgraded and is no longer operated by equivalent stock.

TPE could be argued to have been “upgraded” as it uses 125mph capable stock.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The key reason TPE was split from Northern was to provide intercity-quality travel across the North. We can argue about whether that's been achieved, but for me if it has first-class accommodation in a 2+1 arrangement then it's pretty much intercity, regardless of what sector of BR ran it. Likewise the longer-distance SWT services were proto-intercity services when operated by Stagecoach- particularly the electric services which used 442s and 444s as they even had buffet cars back then.

Of course on the GB system, we don't have the same variety of services as in say Germany where there are an assortment of differently categorised services, so we end up with services that nobody would deny were intercity but for the fact that they also make up the "local" service at the extremities of the network.