Troop / Evacuation trains of WWII

[harryclewis]

I searched for another thread on this topic but I couldn't find one. I am wondering about the rough dates, frequency and common start- and end-points for trains that would have been used on evacuation and troop trains in WWII. I am particularly interested in the Southern Railway and whether there were many troop or evacuation trains on the West of England Mainline between Exeter (and west thereof) and Salisbury. This being an unfamiliar topic to me, I would appreciate it if you could recommend any books on the matter.

Another question I have is what would the prototypical troop or evacuation train look like? Would it get first-rate locomotives and stock or would it be more of a 'summer Saturday' deal with any excess stock being used? Additionally, what would the standard length of these trains be? LE Greys states in this 2012 thread:

The longest passenger train I know of was a WWII special (can't remember if it was a troop-train or evacuation) that departed King's Cross hauled by a single A4. Twenty-four coaches.

which definitely gives me the impression that some of these trains would be much larger than usual. While I am most interested in the Southern Railway, any information on the topic would be greatly appreciated.

 

[John Webb]

Evacuation trains were of two sorts, either at the outbreak of war for children, or the short but very concentrated ad hoc service run to cover the Dunkirk evacuation. O S Nock's book "Britain's Railways at War 1939-45" (Ian Allan, 1971) notes that in the former case some 1,577 trains ran from the London area alone at the start of September 1939. A total of 1.3 million people were moved. There seem to be many photos about of this work, indicating a wide range of rolling stock that was used.

The Dunkirk evacuation has a chapter in Nock's book to itself. From May 27th 1940 to June 4th there were 565 trains carrying nearly 295,000 people.
There are few photos of the trains connected with this evacuation; photography was not encouraged on security grounds by then. Again I think anything that could be used was.

 

[Taunton]

I know it's off-centre, but following a series of over-the-top justifications for current railway inabilities, I wrote here some years ago how the Dunkirk evacuation might have been with currently prevailing approaches

Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

Unless a seriously special event, at what scale should the Railway turn around to organisers and tell them to organise their own buses too and from events? The railway is expected to scrape together trains for events, with no financial incentive to do so in some cases, but the event organisers...

www.railforums.co.uk

and likewise a bit off-centre, but in the USA the New Haven Railroad produced this poster, apologising for short-formed regular services because a good proportion of their stock had been commandeered for troop movements. It won multiple advertising awards in the 1940s

The Kid in Upper 4, a wartime advertising campaign of the New Haven Railroad

The first in The Kid in Upper 4 advertising campaign, reprinted in the December 1942 issue of the New Haven Railroad’s employee magazine Along the Line. During World War II the New Haven Rail…

blogs.lib.uconn.edu

 

[Gloster]

I am not sure about the SR specifically, but I believe that the railways had an outline plan for the evacuation of children prepared. I think that a lot of suburban stock was used and their was some cancellation of suburban trains; there were probably a fair amount of goods locos involved as the suburban locos wouldn’t always have the range. Dunkirk was rather more chaotic as it had to be carried out at short notice: very much a case of anything available being used.

In general trains, unless they were specials for senior officers or couriers, would have used older mainline stock: the locos could be anything, but mixed traffic types would probably have predominated. As to length: a battalion would often have a strength of 800-900 officers and men. With 8-10 ORs or 5-6 NCOs in a compartment, a coach or two (preferably First) for the officers and provision for the officers’ baggage, you are talking upwards from 8 coaches.

If I could, I would root through my copies of the Journal of the World War II Railway Study Group. There is a fair amount of such information in them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Peter Tatlow has covered the Dunkirk experience in some detail in a very decent book. "Operation Dynamo" code name was kicked into action by the Railway Executive Committee and the railways were under direct state control so things happened , I think there was something like 140 main line sets commandeered from the 4 companies and the logistics are incredible. Some film was taken and there were some oddities all right - the well known shots of GWR suburban stock at Paddock Wood was one thing , but an LMS scratch set on the loaded trip at Prestatyn had modern bogie stock and some ancient bogie clerestory (gas lit ?) , in the formation.

Almost anything fit to run I guess - and the stock balancing must have been quite an excercise , getting far flung Southern stock back from say Wrexham ! , the important things is that all of this was done on "control orders" , - clear the ports and get to Redhill / Willesden etc. and "ask for orders" from the hard pressed traffic and military staff.

I get the impression that the 1939 evacuations were planned in more time , and some good detail I am sure lurks in files in the National Archives at Kew - not just London , but key Northern cities were evacuated to places like Barmouth and Aberystwyth. My own part of the world (the Amman Valley in South West Wales) had evacuation specials from North Kent , - Chatham and Gillingham and the sight of green Southern main line stock at Ammanford must have been very exotic for the locals used to a "B" set on a local branch service to Swansea and Llanelli (both of course later blitzed in 1940 - Swansea badly).

In passing , records show that the inwards "children" to that part of the world were rapidly assimilated to local schools etc and appear to have had a positive stay , even learning some Welsh. The routing of these trains must have been interesting - I guess Latchmere Junction and the West London line via North Pole would not have been welcome , so I guess the Southern might have routed them Tonbridge - Redhill - Reading and Great Western. A long journey.

 

[PeterC]

On one of the few occasions that my father and uncles actually talked about any wartime experiences the consensus was that all troop trains seemed to be routed via a long wait in a siding at Pontypool Road.

 

[Deepgreen]

Being local to me, the Redhill node is fascinating in this context. The North Downs line has never known such intensity of working and was very much operated by control orders, given its normal secondary status. Redhill was a hugely busy operational point in the exercise and hundreds of extras were handled. As others have said, formations were almost always longer than usual and were amazingly varied. The 24 coach King's Cross working is well known, and was a huge task for a single loco to get away, but don't forget that coaches were considerably shorter and lighter than today, being typically 57-63 feet, compared with roughly 70-80 feet today. It has to be assumed that they were all gangwayed, or there would have been troops swarming over the station throat to board!

 

[Taunton]

David St John Thomas, well known railway book author and then publisher with David & Charles, lived by the sea front Teignmouth which was felt endangered so was "evacuated" (the word of the time) to South Molton on the Taunton-Barnstaple line. He wrote in a number of places about the trains that brought the children in, and about those that brought the visiting parents, some of whom from inner cities had never really experienced the countryside before as soon as they stepped onto the platform (South Molton station, like most on the line, being not particularly convenient for the place it was named after).

On one of the few occasions that my father and uncles actually talked about any wartime experiences the consensus was that all troop trains seemed to be routed via a long wait in a siding at Pontypool Road.

Pontypool Road was a major GWR crew change and remarshalling point, for freight as well as passenger. Trains from South Wales heading for the north would change over here, just like (mostly freight) if they were headed for the Severn Tunnel or Gloucester directions they would do so at Severn Tunnel Junction. From the West of England to the north they would go through the tunnel and round the curve by Newport to change over at Pontypool Road. It's one of the reasons why so many main line expresses stopped there. Taunton shed signed the London line all the way, but for the north they did so as far as Pontypool Road.

The 24 coach King's Cross working is well known, and was a huge task for a single loco to get away, but don't forget that coaches were considerably shorter and lighter than today, being typically 57-63 feet, compared with roughly 70-80 feet today. It has to be assumed that they were all gangwayed, or there would have been troops swarming over the station throat to board!

They would indeed be gangwayed, the loco would be well into Gasworks Tunnel. Actually often locos, it was also apparently handled by two K3 2-6-0s double headed; Gerry Fiennes wrote about it as such, it would jog along at about 45mph on the open line. The stock would be brought in two parts either side of a platform, and passengers boarded both, shortly before departure the train locos would pull one forward and back onto the other, as of course this size of train completely blocked the station throat. The pilot loco from the buffers could give a good push as well.

 

[30907]

The 24 coach King's Cross working is well known, and was a huge task for a single loco to get away.

Was that a troop train though?

David St John Thomas, well known railway book author and then publisher with David & Charles, lived by the sea front Teignmouth which was felt endangered so was "evacuated" (the word of the time) to South Molton on the Taunton-Barnstaple line.

Fascinating, as my mother's school (Aske's Hatcham) was evacuated to Teignmouth...

 

[Taunton]

Was that a troop train though?

Somewhat mixed approach then. Most passengers would be in uniform anyway, going on official warrants. There were both "regular" and one-off troop movements as well, the latter generally of large military groups. The regular ones were the likes of Euston to Thurso, which appears to have operated daily for lengthy periods, taking the best part of 24 hours on the journey.

There was apparently a government restriction on running reliefs to timetabled services, which was the cause of the oversize trains. Quite what saving was made with 24 coaches and double-headed locomotives instead of two services with 12 coaches each is a bit hard to follow.

Fascinating, as my mother's school (Aske's Hatcham) was evacuated to Teignmouth...

I think it was different at different periods. The big evacuation was at the start. Concern then was about air attacks on major cities, the Devon coastline faced still friendly France and was well removed from where hostile aircraft were operating from. Later on this was exactly where the invasion forces were setting off from, a potential key target.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Peter Tatlow's excellent book mentioned above has a complete log of all the Dunkirk evacuation specials passing through Redhill in that fateful May / June. It was compiled by Charles Clinker, later a well known railway enthusiast and historian. He was a GWR employee at the time, appointed as a liaison officer for the 'Big Four' at Redhill Control. A lot of the evacuated French soldiers were repatriated via Plymouth (sadly to no avail), with the SR providing the bulk of the trains via Okehampton, but several GWR specials via Dawlish also ran.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I suppose running a 24 coach train might have saved a Guards turn -probably not. Imagine seeing that off safely in the blackout.

Absolute hero's all of them. Imagine -say -working a main line signal box with just a dim light over the Train Register , let alone on the front end of an engine in pitch black condtions.

 

[randyrippley]

.................There was apparently a government restriction on running reliefs to timetabled services, which was the cause of the oversize trains. Quite what saving was made with 24 coaches and double-headed locomotives instead of two services with 12 coaches each is a bit hard to follow..............

doing so freed up the maximum number of paths for freight
during the war much of the rail system was gridlocked with paths at a premium. According to my father on some of the trains he was on as he moved camp, often the trains were stacked with multiple trains nose-to-tail in a signalling section, being flagged through by hand - depending on keeping a visual distance

 

[harryclewis]

Thanks for all of your fascinating replies. I'm really enjoying learning about this subject. Is there any more information / evidence for this 24-coach train(s) that you can provide or direct me to? I figure that the platform at Kings Cross et al. wouldn't be long enough, even considering the shorter coaches?

 

[John Webb]

Thanks for all of your fascinating replies. I'm really enjoying learning about this subject. Is there any more information / evidence for this 24-coach train(s) that you can provide or direct me to? I figure that the platform at Kings Cross et al. wouldn't be long enough, even considering the shorter coaches?

See Taunton's explanation of how it was handled in post #8 above.

 

[harryclewis]

See Taunton's explanation of how it was handled in post #8 above.

Ah yes, I somehow missed that part of his reply. To what source (presumably authored by Gerry Fiennes) he referring?

 

[341o2]

The Withered Arm by TWE Roche contains some wartime reminisices of wartime workings on the Southern routes to Plymouth and Barnstaple

 

[Taunton]

Gerry Fiennes, one of the most competent and charismatic top managers BR ever had, joined the LNER in about 1938, and worked up to be Eastern Region General Manager by the end of the 1960s. His book "I tried to Run a Railway", plus various articles he contributed to Modern Railways, describe all sorts of interesting details and snippets of how the railway was run during his time. Like me, he thought Beeching was the best chairman BR ever had.

These gargantuan trains, elsewhere as well, were brought about by some government civil servant banning the running of relief trains, thinking somehow that would free up capacity and resources. Meanwhile all the other government departments were finding the need to send everyone all around the country, and freely issuing rail warrants like they were going out of fashion.

The wartime congestion on the railway was not the conventional too many trains for a section, but things like reception lines at marshalling yards full because there was a shortage of crews, or locos, or guards, or whatever, to make space for those queueing back on the line.

 

[Jimbob52]

During WWII the railway was run by the Railway Executive Committee.

With effect from 11 September 1939, the REC ordered various restrictions on passenger services: passenger train services were reduced in number and speeds were restricted; various reduced fares were discontinued; reservations of seats, compartments, and saloons were discontinued; restaurant car services were withdrawn; and the number of sleeping car services were reduced. The Committee was comprised of the most senior officers of the GWR, LMS, LNER, SR and London Transport - not exactly 'some government civil servant banning the running of relief trains'!