Trying to make a complaint about failure of air conditioning on GWR

[nanstallon]

On 11th August I was at Liskeard to catch the 15.14 to Penzance. It arrived over an hour late. I claimed under delay-repay, but want to complain about the failure of air conditioning on the train. I went on line and filled in the form, but itjust won't let me submit the form. I must say that i have often found the GWR website to be very bad.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I read your post while sitting on another GWR train (Oxford to Reading) with the same issue. Thankfully, the train has opening windows, with signs below them saying that staff will open them “in the unlikely event of air conditioning failure”. This, at least, has been done, so it’s not too bad. But, with so few services running today, you’d think they could have found a set with working AC.

I’ll be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[185143]

I read your post while sitting on another GWR train (Oxford to Reading) with the same issue. Thankfully, the train has opening windows, with signs below them saying that staff will open them “in the unlikely event of air conditioning ”. This, at least, has been done, so it’s not too bad. But, with so few services running today, you’d think they could have found a set with working AC.

I’ll be interested to hear how you get on.

If that's on a 166, then a sign saying "Boris Johnson votes Labour" would be more truthful than that one!

 

[jupiter]

I was on the route earlier in the month with the same issue. I complained to GWR via email who assured me they take such units out of service and repair them. Clearly not, as the train crew told me they were on the same unit with the same problem the previous day. GWR clearly need to address this issue.

 

[RT4038]

I was on the route earlier in the month with the same issue. I complained to GWR via email who assured me they take such units out of service and repair them. Clearly not, as the train crew told me they were on the same unit with the same problem the previous day. GWR clearly need to address this issue.

I expect that the GWR response is quite correct. They take such units out of service when they have the spare parts and labour available, and another train available to take its place and repair them. What else do you expect?
If there is no train to take its place (most of the time I expect), it will be repaired (if parts and labour are available) when the next service is due, which maybe some time away.

 

[Snow1964]

I expect that the GWR response is quite correct. They take such units out of service when they have the spare parts and labour available, and another train available to take its place and repair them. What else do you expect?
If there is no train to take its place (most of the time I expect), it will be repaired (if parts and labour are available) when the next service is due, which maybe some time away.

Unfortunately, that seems to be GWR attitude, like having functioning toilets, treated as a nice to have, and not essential.

They really ought to abandon this category, treat it like functioning brakes, and not use the train until repaired. If that means keeping additional spare parts, sufficient maintenance staff or spare units to maintain their services then that should be the plan. Of course they should be allowed few days a year of exception, but not set their target to allow weeks and weeks of unfixed trains.

 

[RT4038]

Unfortunately, that seems to be GWR attitude, like having functioning toilets, treated as a nice to have, and not essential.

They really ought to abandon this category, treat it like functioning brakes, and not use the train until repaired. If that means keeping additional spare parts, sufficient maintenance staff or spare units to maintain their services then that should be the plan. Of course they should be allowed few days a year of exception, but not set their target to allow weeks and weeks of unfixed trains.

It would be nice, but unfortunately that means more subsidies and/or higher fares ...... What would really happen in such a regime is more cancelled trains as the faulty ones sit in the sidings. We get what we pay for. Air conditioning units tend to fail more when the greatest demand is put upon them - an average of a few days per year of hot weather. Of course, if the public didn't put tin cans etc down the toilets (who would do that at home?) then more of them would be functioning too (hence the Virgin Trains Pendolino campaign of a few years back)

 

[Birmingham]

They really ought to abandon this category, treat it like functioning brakes, and not use the train until repaired.

I'd rather have the choice to use the train than it be cancelled and have the choice taken out of my hands. You can still choose not to use a train on which air conditioning is not available if you wish.

 

[njr001]

I travelled between Penzance and Plymouth last month and whilst waiting to depart a fitter appeared to trying to fix something. The train was lightly loaded and the train manager announced that the air con was not functioning in the rear of the train and suggested that passengers move in to the front of the train and that water would be provided for those who wished to remain in the rear of the train, this seemed to a sensible solution.

 

[jon0844]

Was it the whole train or just one coach?

 

[njr001]

One or two coaches had failed air con

 

[miklcct]

I expect that the GWR response is quite correct. They take such units out of service when they have the spare parts and labour available, and another train available to take its place and repair them. What else do you expect?
If there is no train to take its place (most of the time I expect), it will be repaired (if parts and labour are available) when the next service is due, which maybe some time away.

In Hong Kong, units with failed air conditioning are deemed unfit for service as it is a real health & safety concern. When a defect is reported en-route the train is detrained and taken back to depot immediately.

Why isn't Great Britain adopting this practice as well? It looks like an emergency will eventually happen on such trains causing massive disruption, while the practice in Hong Kong will just add a few minutes of waiting time for the next train.

 

[MikeWh]

will just add a few minutes of waiting time for the next train.

Are you serious?

Very few of these long distance routes have more than one train an hour.

 

[jon0844]

In Hong Kong, units with failed air conditioning are deemed unfit for service as it is a real health & safety concern. When a defect is reported en-route the train is detrained and taken back to depot immediately.

Why isn't Great Britain adopting this practice as well? It looks like an emergency will eventually happen on such trains causing massive disruption, while the practice in Hong Kong will just add a few minutes of waiting time for the next train.

Maybe they'll have to if temperatures like this become the norm in the future, but I think that if a 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 car train has one or two coaches with failed air conditioning then it probably makes more sense to keep running the service and tell people not to sit there.

I know people who love the heat, so I expect some people will not have a problem (within reason) and would sooner travel than have the entire train cancelled, as well as the next working, and the next...

We don't generally have air conditioning on buses in the UK, so if it was such a health and safety concern in our climate - surely no buses would run at all either?

 

[Deafdoggie]

In Hong Kong, units with failed air conditioning are deemed unfit for service as it is a real health & safety concern. When a defect is reported en-route the train is detrained and taken back to depot immediately.

Why isn't Great Britain adopting this practice as well? It looks like an emergency will eventually happen on such trains causing massive disruption, while the practice in Hong Kong will just add a few minutes of waiting time for the next train.

I'm sure most people would rather a train turned up than being turfed out at a random station and having to wait hours for the next train, which would then be crush-loaded.
Many trains aren't even fitted with aircon so what happens then?

 

[nanstallon]

I'm sure most people would rather a train turned up than being turfed out at a random station and having to wait hours for the next train, which would then be crush-loaded.
Many trains aren't even fitted with aircon so what happens then?

I agree, but maybe the problem is best resolved by making it possible for staff to open windows? The breeze thereby created by a train's movement should take the worst of the heat off.

 

[Neptune]

In Hong Kong, units with failed air conditioning are deemed unfit for service as it is a real health & safety concern. When a defect is reported en-route the train is detrained and taken back to depot immediately.

Why isn't Great Britain adopting this practice as well? It looks like an emergency will eventually happen on such trains causing massive disruption, while the practice in Hong Kong will just add a few minutes of waiting time for the next train.

Does Hong Kong have many rural routes with sparse services?

What you’re saying is if you were travelling on a rural route (the UK has many of these with sparse services to remote locations) and the a/c fails then potentially people will be stranded at stations for hours on end with potentially no facilities and in some cases no access to a local village even (think Dent which is 4 miles down a steep valley to the nearest village).

Adopting Hong Kong principals to the UK sounds rather deadly to me leaving potentially hundreds of passengers in direct extreme heat for hours on end.

Also what if it’s the last train of the day and there’s no train or crew to send in its place?

Before you change your own (Hong Kong) rules and say ‘well this should be an exception’ this is exactly the practice you said the UK should adopt and you haven’t said there would be any exception.

 

[DelayRepay]

I'd rather have the choice of travelling without air conditioning, or waiting for the next train. I can make my own decision about which works best in the circumstances e.g. when the next train is due and how urgent my arrival time is.

The only thing that would be helpful would be to advise in advance if there is no air conditioning, like they sometimes advertise the lack of catering or that there are reduced toilet facilities. The problem then would be that some people with restricted tickets would wish to travel on a service for which their ticket was not valid and no doubt a minority would cause problems for staff by demanding taxis etc.

So overall, I don't think they should make any changes, because doing so would create more problems than it solves.

 

[talldave]

It takes the same amount of effort to fix the aircon, whether it's one day after failure or three weeks after failure. What needs to change is the attitude to fixing it. Presumably the same parts are used on all identical trains in a fleet, so it's only a small increase in spares inventory to have them instantly available. Perhaps even a bit of regular maintenance might pre-empt some of the failures? (I've no idea what the weak points of train aircon are!).

 

[AlterEgo]

In Hong Kong, units with failed air conditioning are deemed unfit for service as it is a real health & safety concern. When a defect is reported en-route the train is detrained and taken back to depot immediately.

Why isn't Great Britain adopting this practice as well?

Yet again, you are informed that the UK is not an Asian megacity. Good luck detraining people for an hour or two at a rural station in a heatwave.

It looks like an emergency will eventually happen on such trains causing massive disruption, while the practice in Hong Kong will just add a few minutes of waiting time for the next train.

You're forgetting that in almost all of the United Kingdom trains don't run with 5 minute headways.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Interestingly when i got the Eurostar in June on one of the newer sets, one of the cafe cars air con had clearly failed as it was insanely hot in there. The cafe in that half was closed and no passengers were seated there.

I really havent been in a vehicle that hot, but thankfully it was just that single coach.

 

[miklcct]

Yet again, you are informed that the UK is not an Asian megacity. Good luck detraining people for an hour or two at a rural station in a heatwave.


You're forgetting that in almost all of the United Kingdom trains don't run with 5 minute headways.

It's better to dump people at an air-conditioned staffed station even if the next train is 15 minutes rather than risking a heat stroke happening in a train with failed air conditioning.

Even if the station is not air-conditioned, it's still better than hundreds of people on a unit with failed air conditioning due to more space and natural ventilation.

I have seen that in the past, there were emergency resulting from stranded trains in the middle of summer.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's better to dump people at an air-conditioned staffed station even if the next train is 15 minutes rather than risking a heat stroke happening in a train with failed air conditioning.

No, it's not. People can decide to leave very hot trains themselves instead of the TOC making that decision for them. How do you feel about 1-2 hour waits in 30-40 degree heat in the countryside, at stations with minimal shelter for 100-200 people?

Even if the station is not air-conditioned

Almost none of them are... in fact, many trains still don't have air conditioning in the UK (not that it's a good thing).

,it's still better than hundreds of people on a unit with failed air conditioning due to more space and natural ventilation.

But people can leave the train anyway!

I have seen that in the past, there were emergency resulting from stranded trains in the middle of summer.

But that's different. That's trains that have failed, or there having been some major incident, not an air con failure.

 

[Haywain]

It's better to dump people at an air-conditioned staffed station even if the next train is 15 minutes rather than risking a heat stroke happening in a train with failed air conditioning.

Even if the station is not air-conditioned, it's still better than hundreds of people on a unit with failed air conditioning due to more space and natural ventilation.

I have seen that in the past, there were emergency resulting from stranded trains in the middle of summer.

You just don't get it, do you? On most of the network 15 minutes is a frequency people can only dream of, and that's before we take current staff shortages into account. And a significant proportion of stations don't even have indoor waiting facilities.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's better to dump people at an air-conditioned staffed station even if the next train is 15 minutes rather than risking a heat stroke happening in a train with failed air conditioning.

Even if the station is not air-conditioned, it's still better than hundreds of people on a unit with failed air conditioning due to more space and natural ventilation.

I have seen that in the past, there were emergency resulting from stranded trains in the middle of summer.

I don't think there are many air conditioned stations. And most routes aren't every 15 minutes they're hourly or less. In the OP case there are no air conditioned stations between Liskeard and Penzance, and many with no indoor waiting area at all and the frequency was roughly 30 minutes. So quicker to stay on the train as less time exposed to the heat. A failed train is a failed train. That's not an air-con issue.

 

[Snow1964]

I agree, but maybe the problem is best resolved by making it possible for staff to open windows? The breeze thereby created by a train's movement should take the worst of the heat off.

I don’t think the binary approach, one system on or off is correct solution.

I vaguely remember when SWT introduced 450 & 444 it was announced there were two systems per coach, so a failure didn’t stop it, just allowed train to carry on but with reduced output.

Saves the complication of adding open windows, which tend to be a cleaning problem in the corners and therefore increase servicing cost.

 

[Neptune]

It's better to dump people at an air-conditioned staffed station even if the next train is 15 minutes rather than risking a heat stroke happening in a train with failed air conditioning.

Even if the station is not air-conditioned, it's still better than hundreds of people on a unit with failed air conditioning due to more space and natural ventilation.

I have seen that in the past, there were emergency resulting from stranded trains in the middle of summer.

I suspect you don’t understand the vast of the majority of the UK rail network very well if, as usual, you think that how Hong Kong do it is the answer to everything.

It isn’t, it’s totally different. How would you like to be dumped in some remote outpost in 30-40 degree heat for 4 hours with no proper shelter or local conveniences because the train air con had failed. I imagine the vast majority of people given the choice would just put up with it and carry on. Why would you want to take that choice away?

 

[miklcct]

How would you like to be dumped in some remote outpost in 30-40 degree heat for 4 hours with no proper shelter or local conveniences because the train air con had failed.

Are you exaggerating? No other trains in 4 hours and no proper shelter at a train station?

Most of the stations I have visited / used have at least 2 trains per hour per direction, with a significant portion of the stations having 4 trains per hour or more.

For example, my local station, which is a minor station on the Thameslink, has 4 trains per hour. The next station up the line have about 10. Look at the Overground nearby, 8 trains per hour. Jubilee line, about 20 trains per hour.

I don't want someone having heat stroke on a 378 unit with failed air conditioning. By the way, can passengers open the window for ventilation if the air conditioning fails in these trains?

 

[MikeWh]

Are you exaggerating? No other trains in 4 hours and no proper shelter at a train station?

Most of the stations I have visited / used have at least 2 trains per hour per direction, with a significant portion of the stations having 4 trains per hour or more.

For example, my local station, which is a minor station on the Thameslink, has 4 trains per hour. The next station up the line have about 10. Look at the Overground nearby, 8 trains per hour. Jubilee line, about 20 trains per hour.

I don't want someone having heat stroke on a 378 unit with failed air conditioning. By the way, can passengers open the window for ventilation if the air conditioning fails in these trains?

Heart of Wales line? Far North line? (though extreme heat less of a problem up there?) Berney Arms?

You haven't visited very many UK stations then. No-one is talking about London/South East commuter stations or city metro systems.

Your points "may" be applicable on metro systems, but not on the rest of the UK network.

 

[DelayRepay]

Are you exaggerating? No other trains in 4 hours and no proper shelter at a train station?

Most of the stations I have visited / used have at least 2 trains per hour per direction, with a significant portion of the stations having 4 trains per hour or more.

For example, my local station, which is a minor station on the Thameslink, has 4 trains per hour. The next station up the line have about 10. Look at the Overground nearby, 8 trains per hour. Jubilee line, about 20 trains per hour.

I don't want someone having heat stroke on a 378 unit with failed air conditioning. By the way, can passengers open the window for ventilation if the air conditioning fails in these trains?

Where I used to live, my local station consisted of a bus-shelter on a platform, an information screen and a ticket machine. There was no station building and no staff presence. There were two trains per hour in each direction, but currently there's only one because of the reduced timetable. And sometimes, the one that should be running is cancelled for some reason. We could only dream of a Thameslink/London Overground/Jubilee Line level of service.

There are hundreds of stations like this around the country. We do not all live on the Thameslink or London Overground routes.

Even on those routes (e.g. Thameslink), I don't think trains should be cancelled. Imagine if the driver made this announcement:

I'm sorry that the air conditioning on this train has failed. Passengers wanting a cooler train should alight here and wait for the following service, due in 10 minutes, which has fully working air conditioning.

I imagine hardly anyone would get off.