TSSA now in dispute with Network Rail

[Bald Rick]

Indeed but in Network Rail they only have a collective bargaining agreement for supervisory and managerial grades (bands 4 to 1

Fairly sure they have bargaining rights for Bands 5-8 too.

 

[Romsey]

I'm a band 5 at Network Rail and recently joined the TSSA. Would I have been better off with the the RMT?

Much depends upon the local reps and the individual branches.

Some RMT branches really don't understand the clerical side of the railway and only care for front line operating staff and conciliation grades on the engineering side. Other branches do have members on their branch committee who do understand clerical and supervisory work and will get involved with clerical/ managerial/ controller/ supervisors problems.

Some TSSA branches used to be nearly dead, yet others were active in all sorts of fields. It was often commented that a good way to get a management grade was to be a TSSA union rep for a few years, it did much of the management training before being appointed and getting all the c*** without the overtime.

Both unions have political / social agendas, so have a look at their web sites to see what they are like. (TSSA have a very strong LGBT+ etc element. Sometimes they seem more interested in that than staff conditions and pay.). I have to say that the TSSA pre retirement course was much better than anything NR provided and better than the Civil Service one my wife attended.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sadly, there are way too many people here who denigrate unions and the good work they do.

I think many on here will generally support unions like ASLEF and TSSA, they appear to be sensible, professional and pragmatic where appropriate.
Is it more likely to be the past rants and raving from the RMT that has tainted the union movement as a whole ?

 

[ComUtoR]

I think many on here will generally support unions like ASLEF and TSSA, they appear to be sensible, professional and pragmatic where appropriate.
Is it more likely to be the past rants and raving from the RMT that has tainted the union movement as a whole ?

Spineless idiots or loudmouthed yobs ? Which do you think gets more press ? Perception of how each Union operates really does affect how much rhetoric is aimed in their general direction. I am often surprised about how ignorant people are about how the railway operates and how surprised they are when things go wrong. Even on this forum where I expected people to be more educated I often find myself bemused as to some of the reactions. Part of this is down to how much information is public. The RMT really does like to make huge public statements but does that make their cause any lest justified ? People are often caught up in how the message was delivered than the actual content of it.

Asking for no compulsary redundancies is pretty standard across the board. I know someone who was made redundant last week. Kinda crappy for sure but what was worse is that the 'voluntary redundancy' was only offered for about two weeks. She doesn't belong to a Union so anything goes and getting shafted is par for the course.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm a band 5 at Network Rail and recently joined the TSSA. Would I have been better off with the the RMT?

Put simply a d VERY generally If you are office staff you are represented by tssa.

If you are on the tools= RMT

 

[Trainer2]

Spoke to some NR lads last night; no news yet but lots of rumours.
Watch this space.

 

[Falcon1200]

When I joined BR in 1978 it was a 'closed shop', ie you had to join a Union whether you wanted to or not. As a Trainee Clerical Officer Grade 1 I was told I was entitled to join either the NUR (as the RMT was then) or the TSSA, however the person inducting me only had application forms for the TSSA ! So I joined the TSSA, and would have done even if it was not a closed shop, for the support available, and because I felt it morally right that as they negotiated pay and conditions I should contribute. And I would recommend any rail employee to join a Union.

 

[the sniper]

I think many on here will generally support unions like ASLEF and TSSA, they appear to be sensible, professional and pragmatic where appropriate.
Is it more likely to be the past rants and raving from the RMT that has tainted the union movement as a whole ?

I don't know of another organisation that creates more of a stir as regularly as the RMT seems to do here with each press release, usually on issues that the public would be completely disinterested in otherwise. Maybe there's method to what you and others would consider madness?

Always have to laugh when the rail unions are judged by their public messaging. It's fluff. ASLEF have little need or interest in showing their hand in public and the TSSA don't like to offend anyone. A popular union with the public are ones that they don't notice. ASLEF and TSSA achieve this, in very different ways. Very few managers want to be in dispute with ASLEF, the TSSA rarely wish to be in dispute with anyone...

 

[Carlisle]

A popular union with the public are ones that they don't notice. ASLEF and TSSA achieve this, in very different ways. Very few managers want to be in dispute with ASLEF, the TSSA rarely wish to be in dispute with anyone...

By that equation Health & Medical sector unions should hold the strongest hand of all, but as everyone knows, it’s not remotely that simple .

 

[ComUtoR]

TSSA raises strawman argument knowing perfectly well NR is not going to guarantee any such thing?

Might want to have a read of this : https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications/12813-2021-06-efa-publication/file.html Whilst it doesn't specifically guarantee no compulsary redundancies (and tbh any document with a built in get out clause isn't worth the paper its written on) it does show a commitment regarding greater job security.

 

[Silverlinky]

Might want to have a read of this : https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications/12813-2021-06-efa-publication/file.html Whilst it doesn't specifically guarantee no compulsary redundancies (and tbh any document with a built in get out clause isn't worth the paper its written on) it does show a commitment regarding greater job security.

No compulsory redundancies before 31st December 2021..... so everyone is safe for six months.......and then?

 

[ComUtoR]

No compulsory redundancies before 31st December 2021..... so everyone is safe for six months.......and then?

Hence the bit in brackets.

Almost like its an agreement that nobody is really commited to and can be torn up at a moments notice.

 

[Bald Rick]

Almost like its an agreement that nobody is really commited to and can be torn up at a moments notice.

Why do you say that?

 

[Mintona]

All I’m getting from that is an expectation of many redundancies effective from 1st January 2022.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why do you say that?

Mostly because of this :

By no later than the end of 2021 if there is not sufficient evidence of progress or if discussions break down, the proposed employee support measures in this agreement will be amended or withdrawn

This line is almost a threat. If anyone was fully comitted on both sides then it wouldn't need to be added.

The proposals are pretty positive and the industry does need to move forward. However; if you look at what is being proposed there shouldn't be any reason for this agreement to exist. Those 5 principles should already be standard across all industries let alone the railway. Again, these aren't measures that should have any caveat of being withdrawn.

I may be reading it worng but if the 'Agreement' has already been agreed to by all parties then whats there to be negotiated ? What I can tell you is that these things look good on paper but the reality is far different. My Union has proposed reduced hour links, part time working, flexible time off etc for years and it never gets agreed. It is the TOCs that refuse it.

Everyone involved needs to make changes. The industry is broken and has been for many years. One of the other striking things about this 'Agreement' is that it specifically targets staff. The railway is horribly wasteful and the DfT almost incentivise tick box exercises. The RIRG need to also focus on a more holistic approach and cultural change.

 

[Bald Rick]

I may be reading it worng but if the 'Agreement' has already been agreed to by all parties then whats there to be negotiated ?

Thanks for replying.

To answer this bit, I read it as a framework agreement which sets out the broad principles of how organisation changes will be managed in people terms. What there is to be negotiated is the ‘what’ changes. That could be numbers of jobs, terms & conditions, etc.

 

[father_jack]

Thanks for replying.

To answer this bit, I read it as a framework agreement which sets out the broad principles of how organisation changes will be managed in people terms. What there is to be negotiated is the ‘what’ changes. That could be numbers of jobs, terms & conditions, etc.

And that's why I'm glad it's Michael Lynch at the helm in the RMT and not Header Hedley, or whoever his puppet was going to be. Tall fences need to be jumped squarely and Mick is as close to Bob Crow in terms of realism that we could desire to have.

 

[Trainer2]

Industry wide voluntary severance has been agreed in principle!
The queue will be long to get on this scheme.

 

[big_rig]

TSSA comms now says that they are in dispute (compared to previously 'disputing') with NR over the scheme.

Network Rail - Special Voluntary Severance Scheme - where's your plan? - News

We are now in dispute with Network Rail and have called for an urgent meeting under the disputes resolution procedures to discuss the differences between the company and our union. To resolve the current dispute all Network Rail need to do is to fall into line with the rest of our rail industry and agree a rational approach to the so called rail reform agenda.

 

[TUC]

It's OK. The fact is that the vast majority of the public can get along fine without rail at the moment. Any of the rail unions can huff and puff all they want. It will make little difference to most of life. The perfect time to reset arrangements onto a more sensible footing.

 

[the sniper]

It's OK. The fact is that the vast majority of the public can get along fine without rail at the moment. Any of the rail unions can huff and puff all they want. It will make little difference to most of life. The perfect time to reset arrangements onto a more sensible footing.

When a TSSA dispute over redundancies is greeted like this, you know people on this forum are just thirsty for staff blood.

 

[43096]

When a TSSA dispute over redundancies is greeted like this, you know people on this forum are just thirsty for staff blood.

Nah. Many of us who were 5 days-a-week commuters just couldn't give a stuff if the staff have a self destructive streak. Having spent the last 18 months working from home, any strike is an utter irrelevance. Whilst no doubt there will be a gradual return of commuting, there's a huge difference: if the trains aren't running we now know we have a viable alternative. In short, the unions' hold over the passengers (which is the bargaining position the unions had with the TOCs and DfT) has to a great extent disappeared. Not sure the dinosaurs in the unions have realised yet, though.

 

[Bald Rick]

When a TSSA dispute over redundancies is greeted like this, you know people on this forum are just thirsty for staff blood.

I think the issue is - why are the TSSA in dispute, when only a couple of months ago they signed up to a framework agreement that included the principle of a voluntary severance scheme.

 

[24Grange]

I don't think it's that exactly - just the feeling with jobs being decimated by Covid across many industries ( On top of the fact people feeling we never really got over the financial crash), The railways carting around train loads of air ( WFH) and a cultural shift long term , makes it feel that it is in some form of glass protected bubble, where the rest of us go to the wall. Things are going to have to change, the current tax payers subsidy is unsustainable. The treasury must be sharpening its pencils at some point to " cut back" for the want of better word. As someone said up thread - you never see a TM ( or guard) on a train - so so what.

 

[DarloRich]

I think the issue is - why are the TSSA in dispute, when only a couple of months ago they signed up to a framework agreement that included the principle of a voluntary severance scheme.

Is that a rhetorical question?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that a rhetorical question?

Well I don’t expect an answer!

 

[the sniper]

I think the issue is - why are the TSSA in dispute, when only a couple of months ago they signed up to a framework agreement that included the principle of a voluntary severance scheme.

Network Rail - Special Voluntary Severance Scheme - where's your plan? - News

Network Rail, in a desperate attempt to cut costs, is intending to do away with many of your jobs without even having put forward a single proposal of what new organisation they intend to put in place.

They have not proposed what their future structure may be, the impact of job losses on the workloads of those of you who remain with the company or its effects on the safety of our rail infrastructure, nor even what criteria will be used to determine if an application for voluntary severance would be accepted or declined.

We are left wondering, where’s the plan?

The Rail Industry Recovery Group (RIRG) Framework Agreement provides for the provision of an industry-wide Special Voluntary Severance Scheme (SVSS) - with a common opening and closing date and selection criteria - across the companies included within the Framework Agreement and it also states that there will be full adherence to the bargaining arrangements within each employer.

The purpose of the SVSS is to mitigate compulsory job losses!

Under the auspices of the Framework Agreement, your TSSA Executive Committee gave our General Secretary, Manuel Cortes the authority to fully engage in this process within certain parameters. It's clear that Network Rail want to step outside these parameters and act against the spirit and sensibilities of the agreement and the rest of the RIRG.

The reality is that Network Rail have no idea what new organisation they want. In addition, it's our view that Network Rail is in breach of both the letter and spirit of the RIRG Framework Agreement.

Our Union will not tolerate such reckless behaviour. Network Rail are gambling with your jobs. We are now in dispute with Network Rail and have called for an urgent meeting under the disputes resolution procedures to discuss the differences between the company and our union. To resolve the current dispute all Network Rail need to do is to fall into line with the rest of our rail industry and agree a rational approach to the so called rail reform agenda.

We want to resolve this issue, but our union demands a coherent plan from Network Rail, one that does not breach the RIRG Framework Agreement and one that is fair to those of you who are potentially leaving the industry and those of you who are staying. So Network Rail, it's over to you. Convene a meeting under the disputes procedure without further delay so we can draw a line under this dispute.

In the case of TSSA I'm relegated to only going by their press release...

 

[Bald Rick]

This is the interesting bit.

“your TSSA Executive Committee gave our General Secretary, Manuel Cortes the authority to fully engage in this process within certain parameters. It's clear that Network Rail want to step outside these parameters”

I read this as the TSSA have set some red lines - what are they?

 

[the sniper]

I don't think it's that exactly - just the feeling with jobs being decimated by Covid across many industries ( On top of the fact people feeling we never really got over the financial crash), The railways carting around train loads of air ( WFH) and a cultural shift long term , makes it feel that it is in some form of glass protected bubble, where the rest of us go to the wall. Things are going to have to change, the current tax payers subsidy is unsustainable. The treasury must be sharpening its pencils at some point to " cut back" for the want of better word. As someone said up thread - you never see a TM ( or guard) on a train - so so what.

Don't worry, it's coming. Why there's an expectation that the unions should shy away from resisting it, I don't know. People in this country have evidently been conditioned by most industries having largely worthless/pointless unions, where they still exist.

 

[infobleep]

This is the interesting bit.

“your TSSA Executive Committee gave our General Secretary, Manuel Cortes the authority to fully engage in this process within certain parameters. It's clear that Network Rail want to step outside these parameters”

I read this as the TSSA have set some red lines - what are they?

I think also wondering what our the parameters.

I prefer negotiation to take place with an open mind, whilst still calling out anything you think is incorrect or unfair with facts to disprove what the other side are saying.