Tube - Bus 733 - Tube, during Northern line Bank closure

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bakerstreet

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New temporary route 733 will commence from Monday 17 January running between Oval Station and Moorgate, Finsbury Square. Route 733 will run during the closure of the Bank branch of the Northern line which is due to reopen towards the end of May 2022.

I doubt it’s intended that the bus be used in this way but does anyone know: would a journey of tube - bus 733 - tube be joined up as one single tube fare on Oyster / Contactless? or if not how such a journey might be charged?
 
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JonathanH

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I doubt it’s intended that the bus be used in this way but does anyone know: would a journey of tube - bus 733 - tube be joined up as one single tube fare on Oyster / Contactless? or if not how such a journey might be charged?
Looks like it will be a normal bus route in the London bus network, therefore £1.55 for each journey, and no integration with underground fares.

Seems to me its purpose is to relieve the 43/133 bus rather than be part of the Northern Line. Extending your quotation from https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/bus-changes#on-this-page-0
New route 733 - 17 January 2022
Route Affected: 733

New temporary route 733 will commence from Monday 17 January running between Oval Station and Moorgate, Finsbury Square. Route 733 will run during the closure of the Bank branch of the Northern line which is due to reopen towards the end of May 2022.

Route 733 will run on Monday to Fridays only between Oval Station and Moorgate, Finsbury Square via Kennington Park Road, Kennington Station, Newington Butts, Elephant & Castle Station, Borough High Street, Borough Station, London Bridge Station, Monument Station, King William Street, Bank Station, Princes Street and Moorgate

Towards Moorgate route 733 will start from bus stop C on Harleyford Street before serving all route 133 bus stops as far as Monument Station and then all route 43 bus stops up to Moorgate with buses terminating at bus stop C at Finsbury Square.

Towards Oval route 733 will start from bus stop K on Moorgate and will then serve all route 43 bus stops as far as Monument Station and then all route 133 bus stops until bus stop Z at Kennington Road with buses then going forward to terminate at bus stop D on Harleyford Street.

Route 733 will run on Monday to Fridays only at a frequency of every 10 minutes before 0630, every 7-8 minutes during both the peaks and the daytime except in the AM peak between 0745 and 0900 towards Moorgate only and in the PM peak between 1645 and 1800 towards Oval when the frequency will be every 6 minutes. The frequency after 2000 until the last bus will be every 10 minutes. There will be no service on Saturdays, Sundays, or Bank Holidays.

First buses will depart Oval Station at 0524 and from Moorgate, Finsbury Square at 0550. Last buses will depart Oval Station at 0005 and from Moorgate, Finsbury Square at 0030.

Route 733 will be operated by Tower Transit using double deck buses.
...and on the Northern Line closure page https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/m...rthern-line-closure?cid=northern-line-closure
Bus

Consider taking a bus for all or part of your journey

There are a number of alternative bus routes to the City of London. They include our new temporary route 733 between Oval and FInsbury Circus, which will run Monday to Friday
For so long as TfL don't have a sensible set up for charging for rail replacement buses in the Oyster area, a set up where the effective replacement is part of the bus network and is charged accordingly seems to be the best they can offer.
 
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island

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I strongly expect it'll be charged as the sum of its parts. Anyone wanting to make a through journey would be well-advised to take other lines.
 

bakerstreet

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Looks like it will be a normal bus route in the London bus network, therefore £1.55 for each journey, and no integration with underground fares.

Seems to me its purpose is to relieve the 43/133 bus rather than be part of the Northern Line. Extending your quotation from https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/bus-changes#on-this-page-0

...and on the Northern Line closure page https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/m...rthern-line-closure?cid=northern-line-closure

For so long as TfL don't have a sensible set up for charging for rail replacement buses in the Oyster area, a set up where the effective replacement is part of the bus network and is charged accordingly seems to be the best they can offer.

Thanks for this - I really should have read this more carefully!
 

Busaholic

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I doubt it’s intended that the bus be used in this way but does anyone know: would a journey of tube - bus 733 - tube be joined up as one single tube fare on Oyster / Contactless? or if not how such a journey might be charged?
The fact that TfL remain silent on this is amateurish and can only lead to a suspicion, if not yet a conclusion, that each part gets charged separately. Why shouldn't someone travelling Angel to Clapham Common, say, choose to use this route and expect to pay the normal fare for it? I wonder, in practice, whether (some of) the bus drivers on this route will 'look the other way' when it comes to payment: precedent suggests it might,
 

JonathanH

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I wonder, in practice, whether (some of) the bus drivers on this route will 'look the other way' when it comes to payment: precedent suggests it might,
This all comes back to the totally stupid situation whereby TfL don't have a proper integrated way of charging for rail replacement buses and passengers just travel for free. If they had a way of charging for these they could have integrated fares on this new 733 service. They don't and they also don't have the finances for people to travel for free as it would cannibalise revenue on the parallel bus services on the normal network.

TfL desparately need to come up with a way of charging for travel on rail replacement buses within the Oyster / Contactless system for the underground (and other rail operators). They have had nearly 20 years to get this right.
Why shouldn't someone travelling Angel to Clapham Common, say, choose to use this route and expect to pay the normal fare for it?
It is probably quicker to go via Euston and not worry about the traffic congestion or the fare that will be charged.
 

BJames

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This all comes back to the totally stupid situation whereby TfL don't have a proper integrated way of charging for rail replacement buses and passengers just travel for free. If they had a way of charging for these they could have integrated fares on this new 733 service. They don't and they also don't have the finances for people to travel for free as it would cannibalise revenue on the parallel bus services on the normal network.

TfL desparately need to come up with a way of charging for travel on rail replacement buses within the Oyster / Contactless system for the underground (and other rail operators). They have had nearly 20 years to get this right.

It is probably quicker to go via Euston and not worry about the traffic congestion or the fare that will be charged.
I've never understood this - I rarely take replacement buses but on the few occasions I have we've always just got straight on. TFL always says tickets will be accepted but tickets are never even looked at! Surely it cannot be that difficult to sort out.

But it is good to know they have come up with an alternative during this closure. It will be interesting to see how well used the 733 is.
 

miklcct

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This all comes back to the totally stupid situation whereby TfL don't have a proper integrated way of charging for rail replacement buses and passengers just travel for free. If they had a way of charging for these they could have integrated fares on this new 733 service. They don't and they also don't have the finances for people to travel for free as it would cannibalise revenue on the parallel bus services on the normal network.
I expect free travel for rail replacement buses when the rail is out of operation, as it is the fault of the rail operator. This is the way done in Hong Kong where all rail replacement buses are always free. It will not cannibalise revenue on regular bus services because rail replacement buses are always less efficient than regular city buses, in effect when rail is out of operation city buses, even for the routes which are normally seldom used, become quickly crowded as thousands of passengers flood to the bus stops and try to take buses.
 

JonathanH

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I expect free travel for rail replacement buses when the rail is out of operation, as it is the fault of the rail operator.
No. I dont agree. You are still being transported and that has value. I can see that it shouldn't cost more. Obviously people like things that are free but someone has to pay.
This is the way done in Hong Kong where all rail replacement buses are always free.
Not especially relevant.
It will not cannibalise revenue on regular bus services because rail replacement buses are always less efficient than regular city buses, in effect when rail is out of operation city buses, even for the routes which are normally seldom used, become quickly crowded as thousands of passengers flood to the bus stops and try to take buses.
Not so true here - the Northern line follows the road plan so the 733 is just as efficient as the 133 / 43 on the relevant routes.
 
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You are still being transported and that has value.
I agree, but I can see why it's considered too difficult to implement on rail replacement within London. TfL don't have much incentive, as it's largely not their money anyway. What would you charge from one tap? The minimum fare? And any other legs of the journey made wouldn't immediately appear as a through journey, although perhaps this could be done with a bit of processing at the end of the day.

The 733 bus is a bit different, as it'll last longer and is completely within TfL's empire. There were always features for bus ticket machines to revert an Underground fare and charge something else instead (a bus fare?) for unexpected closures, I don't know if that is still used, it might be useful here. And the continuation of a bus journey onto a tram was as we know the genesis of the Hopper fare. But maybe the 733 is different enough and doing something just for this was frowned upon, those ticket machines are ancient now. I hope TfL are considering processing the journeys later and issuing refunds where necessary.
 

Ralph Ayres

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As I see it the 733 is primarily aimed at people who will use it for their entire journey. If you are making a longer journey starting or finishing at a station on the closed section other than Borough it will generally be just as quick and more reliable to take a different route using other LU lines than to change to/from the 733.
 

Taunton

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TfL desparately need to come up with a way of charging for travel on rail replacement buses within the Oyster / Contactless system for the underground (and other rail operators). They have had nearly 20 years to get this right.
I believe it was looked at in detail and found to be not worthwhile. Although buses from TfL themselves may have Oyster readers, those from independent contractors do not, nor are their drivers trained in them. Then it was found that most (not all, but most) of those on them were transferring to other services at the end of the replacement, so there was little if any difference in what was paid.

Last weekend for example the DLR through Poplar was closed, but those on the replacement buses mainly seemed to be transferring onto either Underground or working DLR, and thus were paying often the same as normal anyway.
 

3rd rail land

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No. I don't agree. You are still being transported and that has value. I can see that it shouldn't cost more. Obviously people like things that are free but someone has to pay.
Of course there is a value in that you are being transported however buses take a lot longer than trains. I'd be pretty irritated if I had to pay the same fare for a rail replacement bus that takes much longer and isn't as comfortable as a train. In London if a TFL bus is being used then I think a fair compromise is to pay a bus fare, i.e £1.55, for the journey and I'd be happy to do that. If people are transferring to/from TFL Rail Overground, Tube etc then the revenue loss from not charging for a rail replacement bus may well be very minimal but turning on the ticket machine on TFL buses costs TFL nothing and drivers are already trained in how to use them.
 

Dent

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In London if a TFL bus is being used then I think a fair compromise is to pay a bus fare, i.e £1.55, for the journey and I'd be happy to do that. If people are transferring to/from TFL Rail Overground, Tube etc then the revenue loss from not charging for a rail replacement bus may well be very minimal but turning on the ticket machine on TFL buses costs TFL nothing and drivers are already trained in how to use them.

That would result in anyone using a replacement bus as part of their journey being charged more than they should as they would be paying the bus fare in addition to the zonal fare for the rest of their journey.
 

3rd rail land

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That would result in anyone using a replacement bus as part of their journey being charged more than they should as they would be paying the bus fare in addition to the zonal fare for the rest of their journey.
Unless they hit the daily cap they would be charged more. Given paper tickets are so rare in London nowadays I can't see any practical solution to the problem.
 

Dent

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Unless they hit the daily cap they would be charged more. Given paper tickets are so rare in London nowadays I can't see any practical solution to the problem.

Not everyone who uses TfL services does hit the cap every day, so your proposal would still result in people getting overcharged.
 

plugwash

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As a general rule, what if any obligations do transport providers have in terms of planned disruptions. If a service is suspended and the only alternatives are more expensive is that simply a case of "too bad so sad"?
 

Haywain

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As a general rule, what if any obligations do transport providers have in terms of planned disruptions. If a service is suspended and the only alternatives are more expensive is that simply a case of "too bad so sad"?
Those who have paid in advance won't have to pay extra. For the rest, I suspect it's just too bad.
 
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