Tube staff plan five days of strikes

Discussion in 'London Underground' started by Manchester77, 17 Apr 2014.

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  1. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    As the tube network is key to a large part of London's prosperity, it seems logical that Tube staff should all be designated as part of an 'essential' industry. That would stop the strikes !

    Robert
     
  2. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    And mean that workers have to put up with anything the bosses decide?

    If the tube is so key to London's prosperity wouldn't it be nice if its workers could share in that?
     
  3. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    And perhaps management could treat it's staff with the importance you suggest they have in Londons prosperity? ie not try and sack them behind their back without involving them in the process?

    Sorry but it's a two way street.

    Plus, once again a poster on here is trying to make the staff and unions out to be the bad guys where as both sides are to blame. The union wouldn't be cling strikes if TFL agreed to hold meaningful talks-why not direct your displeasure of the strikes at TFL as well as the RMT who arnt doing this to cause travel chaos but to try and protect it's members from redundancy.
     
  4. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    The job of the RMT is to represent its members, and it does that job well.

    I am not sure why the union actually should give a damn about the inconvenience for passengers. After all, it's that very inconvenience that gives the union its power.
     
  5. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    Maybe the unions are holding out for a better redundancy deal? I'm not sure what else TfL could do? Closing most or all ticket offices is a given, unless you want to pay people £30K for sitting behind a window all day doing nothing. TfL have therefore invented these new roles to give them something to do, otherwise there would have to be compulsory redundancies. You can't seriously expect TfL to pay £30K for these new roles?

    Could TfL have some other worthwhile jobs out of the station they could do? £30K is comparable to graduate entry level salary so instead of hiring graduates to work in planning, engineering etc. they could retrain ticket office managers instead.
     
  6. Muzer

    Muzer Established Member

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    Most zone 1 station ticket offices always appear to me to be quite busy whenever I need them, even in the off-peaks. Maybe I'm just unlucky. I don't think they're paying £30k to sit behind a window all day doing nothing in these stations. Maybe in stations further afield, you have a point.

    I think RMT are/were looking to keep more zone 1 ticket offices open, or am I wrong?
     
  7. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    Why can't you expect them to pay 30k for the new roles? Especially if they pay 30k for the current ones? Are you just suggesting that staff are overpaid despite evidently not understanding the full job description...such as the emergancy training etc?
     
  8. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    The reason why I think £30K is too much is that clearly these are roles purely invented to keep some people in a job. It wouldn't be fair on the taxpayer or passenger otherwise.

    Maybe this argument will be academic anyway if enough people take voluntary redundancy? If that's the case, then TfL would have to hire new people, meaning that a market based salary would be appropriate.
     
  9. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    Would that not take up to 40 years to achieve its aim therefore be totally impractical ?, assuming quite a number of staff are in their 30s or 40s therefore they could be up to 40 years from retirement if they decide to stay in their current position and not move voluntarily :cry:
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2014
  10. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    But they are only being used because they are there. If they weren't there, tickets could still be bought from the ticket machines and there would be even greater use of Oyster ticket stops and auto top-up. Tourists are more likely to use the ticket offices but the machines should be good for them as they are in so many languages.
     
  11. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    So why are TfL promoting so heavily the benefit of this is that there will be staff more readily availible around the stations and not just in the ticket office. Passengers are quite clear that they don't want unstaffed stations so I doubt TfL is going to go in that direction. That doesn't sound like a job that's been invented to keep people in a job. Why is this job worth less than one in a ticket office?
     
  12. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    They are promoting it for public relations reasons, to impress on the general public that they are going the extra mile to keep people in a job.

    Ticket offices aren't open all the time at the moment.

    The 'worth' of a job is highly subjective. In the most common parlance, jobs are worth as much as the market rate.
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2014
  13. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    So what is the 'market rate' for someone in that job, of course not forgetting the emergency training in crowd control, underground station evacuation, security awareness, safety critical communication etc? I think c30k is pretty reasonable?

    The problem is that I can't think of any other jobs in other industries which require staff in clerical roles to be trained in such specific emergency procedures to compare these jobs with...how many similar roles in other sectors have had to deal with situations like the 7/7 bombings, kings cross fire, fatalities etc...?
     
  14. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    If TfL pay too low then they will not be able to fill the vacancies. So there would be no point in TfL offering £15K salaries if the market rate is much higher.
     
  15. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    What's that got to do with anything? Apologies if I misunderstood your point but I thought you were arguing that 30k is too much for the job?
     
  16. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    TfL presumably think that they will be able to fill the positions paying £15K, so they believe that is the market rate. If the union are right in saying that £30K is more like the market rate, then TfL will be forced to raise the salary up to £30K in order to get the staff.
     
  17. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Where has this £15k / £30k come from?

    Samfs (Station Assistant Multifunctional - ticket office staff at the larger stations) are on ~£35k pa, or ~£39k pa if they are a coach.

    Customer Service Assistants are on ~£29k. The new proposed Customer Service Agent Level 2 would earn ~£22k. The role of the Customer Service Agent Level 2 would not involve operational activities, and that is the rationale, in the mind of those who have developed this project, for paying less.

    The above are/would be all employed by London Underground.

    The Travel Information Centre staff earn much less than even a CSA, and are employed by TfL, on different Terms & Conditions.
     
  18. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    I was going off the figures quoted earlier by A-driver. Clearly you could make the same argument substituting your numbers.
     
  19. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    I was giving a very rough guide figure for a start.

    As for your argument...if TFL pay 30k (or 22/29/35/39 etc) then surely that is the market value or whatever you were calling it? They don't pay higher than they feel needed. Yes unions help get wages higher than non union sectors but not way above market rate. You forget that tube staff are trained in very specific procedures and regulations so don't easily compare to other 'ticket selling' jobs in other industries.

    Add into that that training new people up in the regulations etc is expensive so it's actually in TfLs interest to pay generously I order to retain their staff therefore saving money long term.
     
  20. cjp

    cjp Established Member

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    Just a thought . . .
    In the Netherlands they still have ticket offices but tickets bought there rather than at a machine cost more (Euro 0.5 more or about 50p). I tend to pay the extra because I also get advice.

    Can someone assist with number rather than say 3% of all tickets are sold at ticket office?

    :idea:What would a 20p or 50p surcharge bring in?
    Of course it might speed up the drop in numbers / closure but it is perhaps an idea the Unions and Tfl ought to consider.
     
  21. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    Unlike TfL machines, Dutch ticket machines are not ideal for tourists as they only accept Maestro cards (other than at major tourist stations like Schiphol airport where they accept credit cards for a fee) and (some machines) coins. They do not accept banknotes whereas the ticket offices do.

    However, Dutch residents almost never use the ticket office.

    Obviously, paper tickets are becoming rare on Dutch Railways as most things move to smartcard. They are intending to close ticket offices when paper tickets are phased out. However, there will still be a facility to top up cards.
     
  22. cjp

    cjp Established Member

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    I don't think I would either if I could buy a personal chipcard but without a Dutch address ....
    The hurdles made it impossible for me and I reckon on only three visits in twelve months.:cry:
     
  23. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    I have now got a Maestro card from the Post Office so I should never need the ticket office again. Obviously it is even better for people with a Dutch bank account as they don't even need to visit a machine because of auto top-up.

    It might be interesting to point out that many stations don't have ticket offices but all stations have machines. So no tickets are sold on the train as all tickets are available at the machine.

    It is also noteworthy that Dutch ticket office staff are to be redeployed as station staff, primarily to help with information.
     
  24. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    The Dutch are not the only ones to have machines instead of ticket offices.... Ive said before on this very subject that if tourists can survive in other countries without the need for ticket offices on their metro/underground then why is it such a massive issue for London when the majority of travellers using the tube are indeed English speaking people who live in London?
     
  25. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Rather embarrassingly, several media outlets and Twitter commentators, including the Evening Standard, reported today that the strike had been called off, after the RMT issued a release stating that the TfL strike was called off. The strike on the Underground will still go ahead, the advice to work normally only applying to "Transport for London members."

    http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/transport-for-london-strike-action-suspended2404014/
     
  26. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    Erm what about the station staff who worked for Network rail at Kings cross who earn much less than those on LUL who had to deal with all the dead bodies being brought out on to the main concourse and had to have a dead body or two on the concourse for the whole day and also aided those from LUL and the emergency services who took charge over everyone during the 7/7 incident aswell as the fire?

    I was there on 7/7 and know who done what.

    You also mentioned earlier about their 'worth'. I am not deriding the staff at all for 'what they are worth' but the only reason why staff anywhere earn so much is because of the very consistent pay rises they have rightly earned. Are you saying that because they work for LUL then their job is more difficult that someone who works in a mainline London terminal station?

    You do make some good points but I am afriad sometimes your sheer loyalty to your union makes you say daft things.
     
  27. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    I have no loyalty to the RMT, I am ASLEF. And no mainline ticket offices have the underground safety training procedures as none of the mainline stations are underground in the same way tube stations are...
     
  28. DT611

    DT611 Member

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    this!!!!!!!!!!! . completely agree with you
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
     
  29. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    With 26 million allegedly seeking work throughout the EU ,and most the younger generation able to speak at least basic
    essential English and our attractive fairly high wage economy , the above Suggestion may not be the best course of action in the long term unless one day we leave Europe altogether
     
    Last edited: 25 Apr 2014
  30. chris11256

    chris11256 Member

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    For those concerned, there's now a document on the TFL website listing what services they intend to run. Looks like I'll be able to get to work normally.
     
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