Tube staff plan five days of strikes

Status
Not open for further replies.

chris11256

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2012
Messages
548
If I'm honest I resent both sides for letting it get to this stage. This should have been sorted with behind the scenes discussion, rather than this huge public spectacle.

I think train driving is fun, although that was a steam train driving day I went on :)
Slightly different though!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
I honestly doubt that any of the anti-union posters in this thread have ever been in a position of dispute with their employer, and if they have, did not have the wherewithal to bring union representation to the table. Nor do I expect that they come into work every day seeing their conditions slowly eroded in the name of efficiency or cost savings.
I thought the argument was that non-unionised industries are at a disadvantage because they don't have the clout to stand up to their employers?

Many people will have seen conditions worsen as a result of the downturn in the economy post-2008, as well as pay cuts or freezes. That's if they kept their job. That's not a criticism of the employers. Many companies had to downsize in order to survive. Now that the economy is improving, many companies are now recruiting heavily, sometimes with generous packages.

What often happens is that when a company is obviously in trouble, people leave of their own accord before things get really pear-shaped. So they don't hang around to have a dispute with their employer. A lot of people do get into a rut if they've been in a company for a long time so when forced to make a change it can often lead to a better job and prospects. Clearly the job market must work OK in general given that most people in this country have a good standard of living. When some companies are badly, others are doing well and need more people. People switching from poor performing companies makes the economy more efficient and leads to economic growth.

Basically, you can do well even without a union. Being fired is not the end of the world.
 
Last edited:

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,837
You talk absolute drivel. Being fired is not the end of the world? No it's not, but mass redundancy/eroding of terms and conditions isn't something that should be happening. Maybe we do not need ticket offices, but staff can be accommodated in other places, and terms and conditions shouldn't be worn away, regardless if other people have it happen.

Again, you are clearly quite jealous or resentful. Just because the rail industry as managed to build up a good union backing, you feel as the rest of the country doesn't have that neither should we.

Frankly, I count my self lucky to have a few % pay rise this year, but we are not the only ones. I know a few people that work for Tesco, and they have had quite a good pay rise for nothing the last few years. I also like to believe as we are all paid a good wage, that that causes us to take pride in what we do (I certainly do at least), which results in good safety records. If we had a face to the bottom, what would that do?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
Again, you are clearly quite jealous or resentful. Just because the rail industry as managed to build up a good union backing, you feel as the rest of the country doesn't have that neither should we.
How did my post exhibit jealousy or resentment? I thought my post was positive and optimistic, showing that working life in the UK is actually pretty good, union or no union.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Being fired, or being made redundant can have huge detrimental affects to someone and their families...particularly if they find it hard to find reemployment elsewhere.
Obviously in the short term it isn't that great. I've been made redundant twice in my career. But we must accept that full employment is not always possible in a capitalist society. Providing good unemployment benefit like in the Nordic countries is better than not allowing companies to lay off people. Arguably tight regulation means it is harder for the unemployed to find work. It is better for everyone to have a few weeks unemployment every few years rather than most people to be in continuous employment and others never able to get a job.

Given that you have got working experience you have a great advantage over those without, which is why youth unemployment is always higher than the general unemployment rate.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,474
Location
Birmingham
If I'm honest I resent both sides for letting it get to this stage. This should have been sorted with behind the scenes discussion, rather than this huge public spectacle.

I think train driving is fun, although that was a steam train driving day I went on :)
Slightly different though!
That'd be ideal but when the other side won't listen or refuse to meet it has to come out in public.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
17,761
Location
0035
And as for your second point, yes drivers can go into management roles, a driver won't directly lead to general management as most senior management grades are graduate jobs and don't need train driving experience. I don't count driver managers as a direct promotion as it's not really more money and is generally a worse job. My point related to the fact that you can train as a nurse and get some experience and then go for a far better paid job in private healthcare or train in a speciality and become a specialist nurse on good money etc...the same that a police officer may be poorly paid after passing out but over the years they have ample opportunity to move into specialist fields or go in for promotion up the ranks to senior positions. Railway frontline jobs don't have that kind of promotional prospect. Most driver managers go into the job as they don't enjoy driving day to day, not because they want to progress their careers.
Maybe at Tocs, but not on the Underground. Duty Train Staff Managers are guaranteed to earn at a minimum of 2.5% above an Instructor Operator, with the possibility of Overtime (Train Operators do not have Overtime except where the train is late). There have been at least three recruitment campaigns for DTSMs in as many years, plus many more secondment/development opportunities advertised, including one at the start of this year.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
Maybe at Tocs, but not on the Underground. Duty Train Staff Managers are guaranteed to earn at a minimum of 2.5% above an Instructor Operator, with the possibility of Overtime (Train Operators do not have Overtime except where the train is late). There have been at least three recruitment campaigns for DTSMs in as many years, plus many more secondment/development opportunities advertised, including one at the start of this year.

2.5% more? Hardly worth it is it though, and it isn't career profession in the same league as nurses and policemen etc which is what my point was.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
17,761
Location
0035
2.5% more? Hardly worth it is it though, and it isn't career profession in the same league as nurses and policemen etc which is what my point was.
A minimum of 2.5%. Plus the other advantages of the job including overtime and more flexible working/leave arrangements. There is progression within the grade as an opportunity for Duty Managers, as well as the opportunity to move to other Duty Manager grades which pay more, should one not wish to move upwards.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
A minimum of 2.5%. Plus the other advantages of the job including overtime and more flexible working/leave arrangements. There is progression within the grade as an opportunity for Duty Managers, as well as the opportunity to move to other Duty Manager grades which pay more, should one not wish to move upwards.

You misunderstand what my point is though-progression with in the grade basically involves doing the same job with a few extra responsibilities-it's a completely different kettle of fish to a nurse choosing to specialise in surgery or paediatrics etc or a police officer going for a job in a specialist unit somewhere where there will be the opportunity to make very good money. The same dosnt happen in front line railway grades, underground or overground. If you become a train or tube driver then apart from getting more supervisory roles your job is basically still a driver.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
From what I've seen at TfL, the opportunities for secondments and transfers to other parts of the organisation are endless. Vacancies are typically filled internally. So whilst TfL have to advertise the post externally, chances are it is really a formality as they already know who they want.

The training is excellent too. Graduates get to work for six months in one part of TfL before moving on to another and this continues for a number of iterations. So they get a good overview of the whole organisation and can thus decide which area they want to specialise in.

In many ways, TfL is a model employer.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
From what I've seen at TfL, the opportunities for secondments and transfers to other parts of the organisation are endless. Vacancies are typically filled internally. So whilst TfL have to advertise the post externally, chances are it is really a formality as they already know who they want.

The training is excellent too. Graduates get to work for six months in one part of TfL before moving on to another and this continues for a number of iterations. So they get a good overview of the whole organisation and can thus decide which area they want to specialise in.

In many ways, TfL is a model employer.

Im sure, but it's still within the same company. Promotion isn't the same as career progression. I am trained as a train driver. I am very limited in what I can do with that, out of the railway industry my training is pretty useless. A trained nurse or policemen however have a far wider range of career options in the private sector to progress their careers through.

But this all misses my point which is simply that when people compare a train drivers salary to a nurses they are talking about a "standard" NHS ward nurse who is sadly overworked and paid peanuts for it. The comparison falls down when you look at private healthcare specialist nurses etc who can earn a considerable wage. Same with comparing a policeman who has only been on the beat a few years to one who has spent 30 years climbing the ranks and is heading up a specialist unit etc. making very good money out of it.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
Im sure, but it's still within the same company. Promotion isn't the same as career progression. I am trained as a train driver. I am very limited in what I can do with that, out of the railway industry my training is pretty useless. A trained nurse or policemen however have a far wider range of career options in the private sector to progress their careers through.
I can't believe that you haven't acquired useful skills that wouldn't be applicable in another industry. At least, having been a train driver shows that you have a particularly kind of aptitude. I guess not that many experienced train drivers have tried to get into another industry given that they are on such a good deal, so we can't really test that.

Ticket office staff probably have a good opportunity to find a good desk job in another part of TfL. TfL seem happy to retrain into quite different roles compared to their previous experience. Much more so than in most private sector organisations. You could then learn a skill that is less specialist just in case you wanted a job outside TfL at a later date. People don't seem to want to leave TfL, however, given you can move around to different jobs in the organisation so easily and the pension etc. is so good.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
I can't believe that you haven't acquired useful skills that wouldn't be applicable in another industry. At least, having been a train driver shows that you have a particularly kind of aptitude. I guess not that many experienced train drivers have tried to get into another industry given that they are on such a good deal, so we can't really test that.



Ticket office staff probably have a good opportunity to find a good desk job in another part of TfL. TfL seem happy to retrain into quite different roles compared to their previous experience. Much more so than in most private sector organisations. You could then learn a skill that is less specialist just in case you wanted a job outside TfL at a later date. People don't seem to want to leave TfL, however, given you can move around to different jobs in the organisation so easily and the pension etc. is so good.

Again, missing the point completely. Comparing a train drivers salary to a nurses salary as was done up thread is comparing a train drives salary (which is The same for a driver with 3 or33 years experience) with a BASIC nurses salary, not with a more senior nurses salary which is an actually be higher than a train driver. You train as a nurse, get some experience at the low paid jobs and then have opportunities to move into other nursing fields with your experience to make more money and progress your career.

Therefore saying "nurses get a fraction of train drivers money and work much harder" is a pointless and incorrect argument as you are comparing an entire workforce to a small percentage of another.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
Again, missing the point completely. Comparing a train drivers salary to a nurses salary as was done up thread is comparing a train drives salary (which is The same for a driver with 3 or33 years experience) with a BASIC nurses salary, not with a more senior nurses salary which is an actually be higher than a train driver. You train as a nurse, get some experience at the low paid jobs and then have opportunities to move into other nursing fields with your experience to make more money and progress your career.

Therefore saying "nurses get a fraction of train drivers money and work much harder" is a pointless and incorrect argument as you are comparing an entire workforce to a small percentage of another.
I wasn't really talking about that. I had moved the discussion onto the ability of TfL staff to retrain into quite different roles. TfL really bend over backwards to help their staff in this regard.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
From what I've seen at TfL, the opportunities for secondments and transfers to other parts of the organisation are endless. Vacancies are typically filled internally. So whilst TfL have to advertise the post externally, chances are it is really a formality as they already know who they want.

The training is excellent too. Graduates get to work for six months in one part of TfL before moving on to another and this continues for a number of iterations. So they get a good overview of the whole organisation and can thus decide which area they want to specialise in.

In many ways, TfL is a model employer.
So you are basically believing everything the papers are telling you then! :roll:

As for that last sentence of yours, tell that to all the ticket office staff facing redundancy, early (forced) retirement or redeployment into a job that will pay a lot less and might be miles away from where they are currently employed!

you really dont have a clue what this is about do you!
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
I wasn't really talking about that. I had moved the discussion onto the ability of TfL staff to retrain into quite different roles. TfL really bend over backwards to help their staff in this regard.

Bend over backwards to help them...?! Seriously? Do you actually know what this thread is about? I mean you realise that this model employer who you rate so highly for their staff care skills are in the process of making their staff redundant and forcing them into lower paid jobs don't you.. I mean that's why they are striking...

I'm sure they can retrain but that dosnt mean its acceptable for TFL to just get rid of them without them being allowed to fight for their jobs.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
As for that last sentence of yours, tell that to all the ticket office staff facing redundancy, early (forced) retirement or redeployment into a job that will pay a lot less and might be miles away from where they are currently employed!

you really dont have a clue what this is about do you!
Surely I've described a number of reasons in my last few posts why TfL is a good employer, especially compared to other employers? So I must have some sort of clue about what goes on in TfL, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to describe the graduate training scheme or the ability to move around the organisation.

Regarding the ticket office staff, TfL have given them more options than any other company would have. Anywhere else there would be compulsory redundancies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm sure they can retrain
You seem to gloss over this. This is quite a big deal. Arguably, it is a risky way to spend taxpayers' money to retrain people into jobs they don't 100% know that they will be able to perform well in. That's why a fully commercial, private business wouldn't do it.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
So being made redundant from a £30K a year job and being retrained into a £24k a year job is a good thing in your world is it! <D

I am seriously thinking of using the T word for you! :roll:
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
Surely I've described a number of reasons in my last few posts why TfL is a good employer, especially compared to other employers? So I must have some sort of clue about what goes on in TfL, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to describe the graduate training scheme or the ability to move around the organisation.



Regarding the ticket office staff, TfL have given them more options than any other company would have. Anywhere else there would be compulsory redundancies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




You seem to gloss over this. This is quite a big deal. Arguably, it is a risky way to spend taxpayers' money to retrain people into jobs they don't 100% know that they will be able to perform well in. That's why a fully commercial, private business wouldn't do it.

Because other companies would give compulsory redundancies it dosnt make it right. The union are protecting their members. That is what they are there to do. So if a company tries to make any staff redundant or downgrade them then their union are going to kick up a fuss and do everything they can to prevent it, even if that means a strike which will cause problems for thousands of people. It would be wrong of the union not to fight for its membership.

Bottom line is that whilst TfL are threatening its staff with these changes the staffs union will fight it. This workforce won't just roll over and accept redundancy like other industries sadly do.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Anywhere else there would be compulsory redundancies.
There will be compulsory redundancies in the true sense of the phrase.
People who refuse to take a lower paid job miles away from where they are currently employed will be made redundant.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
So being made redundant from a £30K a year job and being retrained into a £24k a year job is a good thing in your world is it! <D

I am seriously thinking of using the T word for you! :roll:
24K is better than 0K, which it would be elsewhere.

But I was really talking about the ability to retrain in another part of TfL, and this option is presumably open to the ticket office staff as well, where they might even earn over 30K. Even if it doesn't, there would probably be the opportunity to get skills enabling them to earn much more, either in TfL or moving on afterwards.

If people are so unappreciative of what TfL do for their employees, maybe TfL are wasting their time being a good employer. I have spoken to some TfL staff though who have worked at private companies beforehand and do realise that TfL do a lot of good things they don't need to.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
24K is better than 0K, which it would be elsewhere.



But I was really talking about the ability to retrain in another part of TfL, and this option is presumably open to the ticket office staff as well, where they might even earn over 30K. Even if it doesn't, there would probably be the opportunity to get skills enabling them to earn much more, either in TfL or moving on afterwards.



If people are so unappreciative of what TfL do for their employees, maybe TfL are wasting their time being a good employer. I have spoken to some TfL staff though who have worked at private companies beforehand and do realise that TfL do a lot of good things they don't need to.

They may possibly be the best employer in the world but it makes no difference to the actual topic here which is that they are trying to downgrade and get rid if jobs and that will only have a negative effect on its employees. Therefore the union which represents the staff will kick up a fuss over the plans to protect its members.

You seem to have lost what this thread is actually about and are now skirting the issues by trying to tell everyone how good TFL are as an employer-but the fact that they are still attempting to get rid if staff pretty much blows any of that out of the water.

It's irrelevant how good you think TFL are as an employer as the issue here is that staff are fighting to protect their jobs and that is why they are striking. Not because they don't think TFL are a good employer but because their livelihoods are in great danger.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
They may possibly be the best employer in the world but it makes no difference to the actual topic here which is that they are trying to downgrade and get rid if jobs and that will only have a negative effect on its employees. Therefore the union which represents the staff will kick up a fuss over the plans to protect its members.

You seem to have lost what this thread is actually about and are now skirting the issues by trying to tell everyone how good TFL are as an employer-but the fact that they are still attempting to get rid if staff pretty much blows any of that out of the water.

It's irrelevant how good you think TFL are as an employer as the issue here is that staff are fighting to protect their jobs and that is why they are striking. Not because they don't think TFL are a good employer but because their livelihoods are in great danger.
Are you trying to say that no company should ever make anyone redundant or cut their pay or make adverse changes in their conditions? Even if the company goes under as a result?
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
Are you trying to say that no company should ever make anyone redundant or cut their pay or make adverse changes in their conditions? Even if the company goes under as a result?

If they have done everything else possible to cut costs then that is a different matter. But whilst TFL still have senior managers on six figure salaries with bonuses and are aiming their attacks at comparatively low paid frontline staff then it certainly is wrong.

There are 2 sides here and both want the opposite for the same reason-selfishness. The seniors at TFL want to protect their large salaries and so go about this by getting rid of lower grades which won't affect them personally. The lower grades want to continue their employment and so would prefer cuts were made higher up.

It's the same that those calling the RMT members selfish as them striking will cost them hardship on the strike days are equally as selfish as they are really asking the RMTs members to roll over and accept their jobs being lost so as not to make them late for work for a few days!

Why should these employees just roll over and accept redundancy or pay cuts without a fight? Just because other industries workforces have no interest in fighting for their conditions and jobs it dosnt mean no one else should be able to.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
If they have done everything else possible to cut costs then that is a different matter. But whilst TFL still have senior managers on six figure salaries with bonuses and are aiming their attacks at comparatively low paid frontline staff then it certainly is wrong.
You have to pay good salaries to management, otherwise they will go elsewhere. In a private company, they might be able to get share options and other perks. They might actually be staying at TfL despite being able to earn more elsewhere because of the relative job security and good pension. Although TfL have had numerous management restructurings in the last decade and have had to reapply for their own jobs, so enjoy less security than operational staff.

Even if you cut their salaries, they will always be earning much more than 'rank and file' staff, so you could always argue that there would always be scope for cutting management pay.

Also, there are relatively few management posts, so (presumably) account for a relatively small amount of money compared to the high number of front line staff.

If TfL don't get the cost savings they are seeking, the 24 hour tube might be in doubt.
 

Deerfold

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
10,456
Location
Yorkshire
Ticket office staff probably have a good opportunity to find a good desk job in another part of TfL. TfL seem happy to retrain into quite different roles compared to their previous experience. Much more so than in most private sector organisations. You could then learn a skill that is less specialist just in case you wanted a job outside TfL at a later date. People don't seem to want to leave TfL, however, given you can move around to different jobs in the organisation so easily and the pension etc. is so good.
Given the number of redundancies in recent years under "Project Horizon" and subsequently within TfL I doubt there are many desk jobs available for them to transfer into. My department is currently having another reorganisation. Despite supporting slowly growing bus mileage there are significantly fewer vacancies with the added imposition of shift-working onto some remaining posts where this was previously covered voluntarily. I'm aware of two other departments with similar "slimming" programmes.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,355
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Oh, please, like the 24 hour tube is operationally possible without increasing the number of weekend possessions and kind of defeating the whole object...

Not to mention the logistics of running a 4tph service through the middle of the west end on a Friday / Saturday night. The likes of enibriated passengers with very few staff to control it.

Oh yeah, I forgot they'd recruit a metric shed tonne of "Licensed Travel Ambassadors" from the rank and file of office staff to control it...
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
You have to pay good salaries to management, otherwise they will go elsewhere. In a private company, they might be able to get share options and other perks. They might actually be staying at TfL despite being able to earn more elsewhere because of the relative job security and good pension. Although TfL have had numerous management restructurings in the last decade and have had to reapply for their own jobs, so enjoy less security than operational staff.



Even if you cut their salaries, they will always be earning much more than 'rank and file' staff, so you could always argue that there would always be scope for cutting management pay.



Also, there are relatively few management posts, so (presumably) account for a relatively small amount of money compared to the high number of front line staff.



If TfL don't get the cost savings they are seeking, the 24 hour tube might be in doubt.

Still makes no difference to the reason for the strikes which is that the staff wish to fight to save their jobs. Your arguments do nothing to change that. If TFL are going to try and make these staff redundant then the staff should have every right to fight to save their jobs.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,180
Location
Isle of Man
As soon as a poster ("paul332") starts comparing rail staff to nurses, policeman, firemen eat I tend to yawn and switch off. It's an old fashioned and cliched argument which means nothing.

Nurses work very hard and are paid very poorly.
The top pay band for nurses sees them earning fifty grand a year, plus London weighting. An interesting comparison with tube drivers, I'm sure you'll agree.

radamfi said:
You have to pay good salaries to management, otherwise they will go elsewhere
Ah, but of course.

"Efficiency savings" are only for the little people.

No wonder you think that "employment rights" have nothing to do with the hard work of trade unionists. Lets see how quickly these "rights" disappear when the last of the trade unions are destroyed.

Fact is "voluntary redundancy" is still meaning that someone is losing their job. The lump sum payment is nice, but it isn't the same as having a job, and the lump sums don't pay London mortgages for very long at all. The union members are fighting for their jobs, and that is something that is right and proper. That's why the Evening Boris witters on about tube drivers' pay, rather than dwelling on the facts that a) Mike Brown is paid half a million quid a year for not doing his job properly and b) that he's clearly entered these talks with a less-than-open-minded attitude.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top