Tube staff plan five days of strikes

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A-driver

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The top pay band for nurses sees them earning fifty grand a year, plus London weighting. An interesting comparison with tube drivers, I'm sure you'll agree.



Ah, but of course.

"Efficiency savings" are only for the little people.

No wonder you think that "employment rights" have nothing to do with the hard work of trade unionists. Lets see how quickly these "rights" disappear when the last of the trade unions are destroyed.

Fact is "voluntary redundancy" is still meaning that someone is losing their job. The lump sum payment is nice, but it isn't the same as having a job, and the lump sums don't pay London mortgages for very long at all. The union members are fighting for their jobs, and that is something that is right and proper. That's why the Evening Boris witters on about tube drivers' pay, rather than dwelling on the facts that a) Mike Brown is paid half a million quid a year for not doing his job properly and b) that he's clearly entered these talks with a less-than-open-minded attitude.

The top payband for nurses I assume you refer to is on the NHS? I know a nurse who works for a private London hospital on more than 50k.
 
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Greenback

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The top payband for nurses I assume you refer to is on the NHS? I know a nurse who works for a private London hospital on more than 50k.
Yes, it's the nHS pay scales that ar ebeing talked about here.

I know Agency nurses where the NHS is being charged £90 an hour by the agency supplying them!
Yes, indeed. I personally know agency nurses in South Wales who earn that much, presumably after the agency has taken its cut.

It really is nonsense to compare nurses pay with train or tube drivers. As has been said, newly qualified nurses will earn about £22k out in the sticks, but this will increase with service. Nurses can also choose to progrees through the pay bands by promotion to Ward Manager and beyond, which brings them on to much higher salaries than that for new starters.

There is also the option to specialise, which can lead to roles as Nurse Practitioner and Senior Nurse Practitioner. I can say with some certainty that a person who is just starting their working life as a nurse will have considerably mor eoptions in terms of a career path than a train driver.

But, of course, all of this is irrelevant anyway in the context of this thread.

Naturally, the employees are going to try and protect their jobs. It's questionable whether the decision to do away with so many positions is the correct one, and there are legitimate concerns (which have been brought up in this thread) about staffing levels and how the cuts will affect the day to day reality of running stations in a safe manner.

It is a shame that it has come to this, it would be preferable if a compromise could be reached without strikes, but I can't blame the staff or their union on this occasion.
 

ainsworth74

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This is an interesting discussion on what is a very emotive topic. We are, after all, discussing a key part of peoples lives. Bearing that in mind I would like everyone taking part or who is thinking of taking part to think of how their words will be interpreted by those reading them.

Let's try and keep things civil and keep in mind the Forum Rules and remember if you think there's a problem post please report it (
).
 

Aictos

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Does anyone have any idea how much the Piccadilly line will be affected or what services will be running due to the industrial action on the 1st May and 7th May between Kings Cross St Pancras and Heathrow T5?
 

hassaanhc

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Does anyone have any idea how much the Piccadilly line will be affected or what services will be running due to the industrial action on the 1st May and 7th May between Kings Cross St Pancras and Heathrow T5?
They don't think there will be a service through the "deep level" portion, so anywhere between Earls Court (probably more like Hammersmith because of reversing sidings and stuff) and Arnos Grove. Outside that the plan is to run a 20 minute service to Heathrow, and not all stations will be open.
 

Mojo

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They don't think there will be a service through the "deep level" portion, so anywhere between Earls Court (probably more like Hammersmith because of reversing sidings and stuff) and Arnos Grove. Outside that the plan is to run a 20 minute service to Heathrow, and not all stations will be open.
Does anyone have any idea how much the Piccadilly line will be affected or what services will be running due to the industrial action on the 1st May and 7th May between Kings Cross St Pancras and Heathrow T5?
All information is available on the TfL website. The Piccadilly line is expected to operate between T123 and Acton Town (not calling at T4 or Hounslow West), and between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove (not calling at Southgate).
 

Aictos

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All information is available on the TfL website. The Piccadilly line is expected to operate between T123 and Acton Town (not calling at T4 or Hounslow West), and between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove (not calling at Southgate).
Thanks for the advice however does this apply on all days of the industrial action? Also, how any recommendations on how I'm meant to get between T5 and Kings Cross St Pancras if the Piccadilly line is shut between Acton Town and Arnos Grove?

Is there any ticket acceptance in place with Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect, London Buses etc....?
 

Mojo

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Thanks for the advice however does this apply on all days of the industrial action? Also, how any recommendations on how I'm meant to get between T5 and Kings Cross St Pancras if the Piccadilly line is shut between Acton Town and Arnos Grove?

Is there any ticket acceptance in place with Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect, London Buses etc....?
Heathrow Connect is suspended, and Heathrow Express will be operating a reduced (every 30 Min) service due to separate industrial action. There will be no LU ticket acceptance on Heathrow Express.

One option could be to take the bus to Hayes/Harlington, Great Western to Paddington and then the H&C to Kings +. If you don't want to get the bus then you could take the shuttle to T123, the Piccadilly line to Acton Town, the District line to Victoria and the Victoria line to Kings +. LU tickets will be accepted for bus travel, but if you are on Oyster Pay As You Go then you will have to pay the bus fare.
 

Aictos

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Heathrow Connect is suspended, and Heathrow Express will be operating a reduced (every 30 Min) service due to separate industrial action. There will be no LU ticket acceptance on Heathrow Express.

One option could be to take the bus to Hayes/Harlington, Great Western to Paddington and then the H&C to Kings +. If you don't want to get the bus then you could take the shuttle to T123, the Piccadilly line to Acton Town, the District line to Victoria and the Victoria line to Kings +. LU tickets will be accepted for bus travel, but if you are on Oyster Pay As You Go then you will have to pay the bus fare.
Bearing in mind I will have luggage what out of the two would you recommend to be the easiest route bearing in mind the online journey planner insists I can still use the Piccadilly on the 7th from Heathrow T5 to Kings Cross St Pancras but the BBC reported three days of industrial action starting on the 5th...

What is actually happening on the 7th because I land between 10am and 11am and I rather be prepared to know in advance what routes I can use, is there a Piccadilly service to get me from Heathrow T5 to Kings Cross or is it better to go the longer route and use the routes you've given me above?
 

Dstock7080

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The RMT action takes place from 2100 tonight to 2100 30 April.
Normal services will operate on 1 May.
The 2nd round of action if from 2100 5 May-2100 8 May, so travel on the 7th should be as advised above.
 

Aictos

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The RMT action takes place from 2100 tonight to 2100 30 April.
Normal services will operate on 1 May.
The 2nd round of action if from 2100 5 May-2100 8 May, so travel on the 7th should be as advised above.
Right, appreciate it - probably just use the buses to Hayes and Harlington then FGW to Paddington as that seems to be the easiest way to get to Kings Cross.
 

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chris11256

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Out of interest is there limit on the length of strike action?
So for example could the RMT go 'we're not getting anywhere, therefore strikes every week day for 3 weeks'?
 
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A-driver

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Out of interest is there limit on the length of strike action?
So for example could the RMT go 'we're not getting anywhere, therefore strikes every week day for 3 weeks'?

Yes they could. But they wouldn't get much backing from their members who loose pay every hour they are standing in the car park. A few activists may go through with it but more and more people would cross pickets as there is only so much money you can afford to loose in one go.
 

Robertj21a

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Still makes no difference to the reason for the strikes which is that the staff wish to fight to save their jobs. Your arguments do nothing to change that. If TFL are going to try and make these staff redundant then the staff should have every right to fight to save their jobs.

TfL have stated that there will be no compulsory redundancies, so you can forget that argument.
 

A-driver

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Yes, it's very clear in black and white.

Seriously? Are you just a bit dim or do you honestly not see what is happening here ? No compulsory redundancies providing staff agree to move into other lesser positions. So a staff member on 30k may be forced to choose 'voluntary redundancy' or take a job on 15k.

Try reading the thread before making silly comments as it has all been covered all ready.

And sorry if I have offended you with my post but I have no time for people coming on here posting such rubbish when their points have all been answered already in the thread.
 

Carlisle

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Yes they could. But they wouldn't get much backing from their members who loose pay every hour they are standing in the car park. A few activists may go through with it but more and more people would cross pickets as there is only so much money you can afford to loose in one go.
A mirror image of what happened in the miners strike eventually ,lasted almost a year if I remember correctly
 
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A-driver

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A mirror image of what happened in the miners strike eventually ,lasted almost a year if I remember correctly

The main difference there however is that that was an entire industry being shut down. Rail strikes are different as no one is trying to get rid of all staff or shut down the entire rail industry.
 

Dstock7080

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Remember 1989, 25yrs ago the famous 'wildcat Tube strikes' by trainstaff.
18 one-day strikes organised without any Union backing. Aimed partly at the non-actioning Unions and one-man drivers wages being less than half that of driver+guard combined.
Managed to stop almost every train, led to the Unions taking on the issue (then promptly selling-out!), got the Industrial Relations legislation changed to outlaw 'wildcat' strikes and led LU to implement the "Company Plan" in 1992.
 

radamfi

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What sometimes happens in unionised industries is that management will deliberately announce something that is much worse than they actually plan. They know that the union will be unhappy with their real plan anyway. So after negotiation they agree to the less severe plan the management wanted anyway. So the union can claim a hard one victory for their members and management can claim that they were willing to listen to unions and compromised.
 

Greenback

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What sometimes happens in unionised industries is that management will deliberately announce something that is much worse than they actually plan. They know that the union will be unhappy with their real plan anyway. So after negotiation they agree to the less severe plan the management wanted anyway. So the union can claim a hard one victory for their members and management can claim that they were willing to listen to unions and compromised.
To be fair, both sides normally start negotiations from a position that they recognise is not realistic or achievable. The real skill comes in where exactly in the middle ground do you compromise.

What seems to happen in disputes like this, particularly when played out in the media, is that one or both sets of negotiators don't want to be perceived as 'weak', so compromise and agreement becomes more difficult.

It will happen, eventually, which makes the strikes all the more frustrating for all concerned. A lot depends on how each side puts their case in public, and the consequent support amongst those taking action and the wider population. No doubt the official side are hoping that support for the strikes will fall, which will leave them in a stronger negotiating position and the staff side in a weaker one. If the strike is solid and there is more criticism for management than strikers in the media, then the position is reversed!

This is the reality of the negotiating process, which can involve a lot of postruing and brinksmanship in disputes such as this.
 

Tetchytyke

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Nobody in the history of the world goes into negotiations opening with their best and final offer. Both sides go in with unrealistic demands- "no ticket office closures" or "no staff being kept on"- and negotiate down to a sensible compromise.

Even with strike action the deck is heavily stacked in managements' favour. Mike Brown is still trousering his cool half million even if the RMT members are all out in the car park, it makes no difference to him. The members are the ones losing pay for every hour they are out in the car park with a brazier and a banner. Management can wait out the trade union, just as Arriva did with Northern guards back in the early 2000s, because there is a limit on just how much pay a member can afford to lose.

The RMT are claiming that TfL have gone back on their promises. Interestingly, Mike Brown was on the Today programme this morning slagging off the acting General Secretary, saying he didn't know what he was doing and that the RMT have lost their way since Crow died. Quite why this was relevant, given Crow was not a negotiator, I don't know. But I thought that it was very illuminating, it sounds very much like TfL have tried to exploit Crow's passing to go back on their word. Brown's demeanour in the interview backed up everything the RMT have been saying.

The problem is that, in many industries, management work on the assumption that anything that doesn't provoke a strike is accepted by the workforce. It's the same in my industry, where my trade union have had to threaten to leave examinations unmarked to even get the employers back round the negotiating table. Even then they've come back with pathetic offers that don't even cover the cost of striking. It's what happens.
 
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Greenback

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Nobody in the history of the world goes into negotiations opening with their best and final offer. Both sides go in with unrealistic demands- "no ticket office closures" or "no staff being kept on"- and negotiate down to a sensible compromise.
Precisely.

The problem is that, in many industries, management work on the assumption that anything that doesn't provoke a strike is accepted by the workforce. It's the same in my industry, where my trade union have had to threaten to leave examinations unmarked to even get the employers back round the negotiating table. Even then they've come back with pathetic offers that don't even cover the cost of striking. It's what happens.
I have experience of this in a former career. Not on the railway, where I didn't experience any disputes during my period of employment. Local relations between management and staff were actually very good, and I can't even recall many disagreements, and when there was a minor one it usually involved the roster and was resolved quickly.

In the other job management were constantly trying to gnaw away at terms and conditions, and the union didn't have enough support for action for some of them to mount a convincing fight. They had to learn to choose their battles carefully. Mind you, the national executive were a little too militant for my liking, but usually got re-elected due to the apathy of the general membership.
 
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