Tube stock at old Crouch End Station

[Carl Caulkett]

I've just come across this picture of what looks like some '38 stock being hauled by a battery loco at Crouch End station. This station was on the old line between Highgate and Finsbury Park and the photo must have been before 1970. Apparently, the line was used for tube stock movements, but where would have this train been going?

 

[bramling]

I've just come across this picture of what looks like some '38 stock being hauled by a battery loco at Crouch End station. This station was on the old line between Highgate and Finsbury Park and the photo must have been before 1970. Apparently, the line was used for tube stock movements, but where would have this train been going?View attachment 66285

The line was used as a route for transfers between Highgate Depot on the Northern Line and Drayton Park Depot on the then Highbury branch of the Northern Line, the consist you see in the photo being one such transfer. Battery locos were used to haul the Tube trains dead. Eventually the route became unavailable due to the condition of a bridge, so the trains went via Farringdon and the City Widened Lines instead (presumably via the Hotel / York Road curves?).

Had it not been for WW2 that could well have been an everyday scene (minus the battery loco of course!).

 

[Carl Caulkett]

Thank you @bramling, that makes perfect sense!

 

[Enthusiast]

Eventually the route became unavailable due to the condition of a bridge, so the trains went via Farringdon and the City Widened Lines instead (presumably via the Hotel / York Road curves?).
.

I've racked my brains (didn't take long!). I know how they could get from Drayton Park to the Widened Lines. How did they get from there to Highgate?

 

[Carl Caulkett]

I've racked my brains (didn't take long!). I know how they could get from Drayton Park to the Widened Lines. How did they get from there to Highgate?

I've been wondering this as well! http://carto.metro.free.fr/documents/CartoMetroLondon.v3.8.pdf, come in, please. Your assistance is needed!

 

[Carl Caulkett]

Presumably, the physical connection at Finsbury Park still persisted in some shape or form after 1970 allowing access to the widened lines via Kings Cross. From there, widened lines to link at Farringdon to Met/Circle. Then Circle to High St. Ken, District to Barons Court/Hammersmith. Swap-over onto Picadilly line tracks then back up to Kings Cross. Then, using the Kings Cross Loop, swap over to Northern Line tracks. Then finally up to East Finchley and then into Highgate sidings. It *does* seem a bit convoluted, but in terms of connections to other lines, apart from the Kings Cross Loop, the northern line is pretty much hermetically sealed, as far as I can tell.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Carl Caulkett]

Alternatively, from the widened lines, onto the Metropolitan line and straight up to Rayners Lane, Then Picadilly to Kings Cross Loop, then as before.

That idea came from a post at District Dave's at http://www.districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/28508/northern-piccadilly-link. That's where the really hardcore tube discussions take place!

 

[Carl Caulkett]

This, from https://www.davros.org/rail/culg/northern.html#connections seems to confirm that the widened lines route was used..

"In Underground days the GN&CR was connected to the GNR by a single track from Drayton Park to Finsbury Park goods depot, and until 1970-09-29 trains were exchanged with the rest of the system over the Northern Heights route to Highgate Depot. Thereafter these movements were done via NR tracks and the Widened Lines (see the Hammersmith & City Line)."

 

[Carl Caulkett]

The Northern Heights will return! http://muswellhillmetrogroup.atspace.com

 

[Enthusiast]

Thanks for the info.

I'll not hold my breath for the resurrection of the Northern Heights. The Metro Group's info is a bit light on details but I'm not sure how it is planned to cross the ECML (unless it is proposed to start the new scheme on the west side of the main line). The bridge from the east side across to Stroud Green is long gone. The proposal to provide an interchange between the new line and GOBLIN at Stroud Green seems a bit ambitious. The route of the line (the current "Parkland Walk") crosses GOBLIN less than 500 metres from Crouch Hill station. Still, you never know. What will be completed first, Northern Heights or HS2?

 

[bramling]

This, from https://www.davros.org/rail/culg/northern.html#connections seems to confirm that the widened lines route was used..

"In Underground days the GN&CR was connected to the GNR by a single track from Drayton Park to Finsbury Park goods depot, and until 1970-09-29 trains were exchanged with the rest of the system over the Northern Heights route to Highgate Depot. Thereafter these movements were done via NR tracks and the Widened Lines (see the Hammersmith & City Line)."

Apologies, there’s an element to the story I overlooked. Namely that once the Farringdon route started being used, the stock came from Neasden Depot and the Bakerloo Line. I’m presuming it was a simple case of Neasden-Farringdon-King’s Cross via Hotel Curve-Finsbury Park-Drayton Park. At this time there were various connections available.

It’s true the Northern is quite sealed. The only rail connections have ever been the King’s Cross Loop to the Picc Line (still used today) plus East Finchley to Highgate. Can sort of add Edgware too at a push.

 

[Lucan]

No-one has commented on the train travelling "wrong road". It is going in the Down direction towards Highgate (we are looking west) but I guess that the Down rails were out of use by this time and it was being worked as a single track line.

 

[Dstock7080]

No-one has commented on the train travelling "wrong road". It is going in the Down direction towards Highgate (we are looking west) but I guess that the Down rails were out of use by this time and it was being worked as a single track line.

In the path of the DOWN track can be seen a pillar for the booking office added for structural support.

 

[Carl Caulkett]

Apologies, there’s an element to the story I overlooked. Namely that once the Farringdon route started being used, the stock came from Neasden Depot and the Bakerloo Line. I’m presuming it was a simple case of Neasden-Farringdon-King’s Cross via Hotel Curve-Finsbury Park-Drayton Park. At this time there were various connections available.

Now you tell us! Never mind, it was a good excuse to thoroughly geek-out over tube maps

 

[LUYMun]

It would seem better off if the Northern line extends the MHE branch to Edgware, so that there's a connection at Mill Hill Broadway and Edgware, since the original proposal was to take over the LNER's line to Edgware and beyond to Bushey Heath (which hasn't and won't intend to happen).

Rebuilding the line, on the other hand, from Finsbury Park wouldn't be possible because this requires the Parkland Walk being removed, causing opposition from environmentalists. Another is some of the line between Highgate and Alexandra Palace has been built over by modern development.

 

[bramling]

It would seem better off if the Northern line extends the MHE branch to Edgware, so that there's a connection at Mill Hill Broadway and Edgware, since the original proposal was to take over the LNER's line to Edgware and beyond to Bushey Heath (which hasn't and won't intend to happen).

Rebuilding the line, on the other hand, from Finsbury Park wouldn't be possible because this requires the Parkland Walk being removed, causing opposition from environmentalists. Another is some of the line between Highgate and Alexandra Palace has been built over by modern development.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find the Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace route becoming the focus of some kind of light-rail route at some point. What would people prefer, a quick rapid route towards central London or a path to walk the dog?

 

[edwin_m]

It would seem better off if the Northern line extends the MHE branch to Edgware, so that there's a connection at Mill Hill Broadway and Edgware, since the original proposal was to take over the LNER's line to Edgware and beyond to Bushey Heath (which hasn't and won't intend to happen).

Rebuilding the line, on the other hand, from Finsbury Park wouldn't be possible because this requires the Parkland Walk being removed, causing opposition from environmentalists. Another is some of the line between Highgate and Alexandra Palace has been built over by modern development.

Isn't Mill Hill East to Edgware blocked by the M1, among other things?

Just to clear up a point, the LNER route finished at Edgware. The Bushey Heath extension would have been new build albeit following (I think) part of an earlier never built proposal to extend to Watford. It was also nowhere near Bushey Heath.

 

[sprunt]

The proposal to provide an interchange between the new line and GOBLIN at Stroud Green seems a bit ambitious. The route of the line (the current "Parkland Walk") crosses GOBLIN less than 500 metres from Crouch Hill station.

That was the site of Stroud Green station wasn't it? If it were reinstated, it looks like a reasonable OSI to me.

What would people prefer, a quick rapid route towards central London or a path to walk the dog?

In Crouch End? Well...

Seriously though, while I could see the benefit of a light rail service along the line, it would be a definite loss - the Parkland Walk is extremely popular, and trying to build over it would face opposition from far more than "environmentalists".

 

[bramling]

Isn't Mill Hill East to Edgware blocked by the M1, among other things?

Regarding Mill Hill East to Edgware, most of the route is clear, except for the section between Bunns Lane (immediately west of Mill Hill The Hale station) and Page Street. There’s multiple blockages in this section.

A problem with re-using this route as part of the Northern Line would be capacity south of Finchley Central. Had the original scheme come to fruition I suspect the line would have eventually run in to trouble with today’s frequencies finding space for all the trains between Finchley Central and East Finchley, and over the flat junction at Finchley Central. A shuttle from Finchley Central to Edgware would of course be operationally viable.

 

[Mikey C]

The Northern Heights will return! http://muswellhillmetrogroup.atspace.com

Slightly overplaying the traffic issues in the area, with the picture of that American 4 lane highway!

 

[Enthusiast]

Slightly overplaying the traffic issues in the area, with the picture of that American 4 lane highway!

Haven't you seen Stroud Green Road latelY? !!!

 

[LUYMun]

Looks like the Muswell Hill Metro Group's website hasn't been updated!

It is hoped that the present Mayor, Boris Johnson, will oversee continued expansion of London rail to meet the capital’s ever growing demand. The Group will continue to campaign for the line to be incorporated into future expansion plans by TfL.

 

[sprunt]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they haven't calculated a BCR for their proposal.

 

[bramling]

That was the site of Stroud Green station wasn't it? If it were reinstated, it looks like a reasonable OSI to me.



In Crouch End? Well...

Seriously though, while I could see the benefit of a light rail service along the line, it would be a definite loss - the Parkland Walk is extremely popular, and trying to build over it would face opposition from far more than "environmentalists".

I don’t get what’s so special about the Parkland Walk. For leisure there’s Highgate Wood nearby which is pretty massive. Yes it’s a pleasant walk along a disused railway, but compared to similar walks one will find elsewhere in the country it is *nothing*. Bala to Ffestiniog, Whitby to Scarborough, Yelverton to Princetown, Manifold, High Peak, Stanhope-Consett, Bodmin-Padstow, just to pick a few off the top of the head.

I guess for someone that’s never been outside London it’s possibly a thing of wonder, but seriously this shouldn’t stand in the way of putting it back as a railway.

 

[edwin_m]

Are the alternative walks nearby equally suitable for wheelchairs, pushchairs, cycles etc? One of the main benefits of railway walks is their accessiblity to people who can't get (literally) off the beaten track.

 

[Mikey C]

I don’t get what’s so special about the Parkland Walk. For leisure there’s Highgate Wood nearby which is pretty massive. Yes it’s a pleasant walk along a disused railway, but compared to similar walks one will find elsewhere in the country it is *nothing*. Bala to Ffestiniog, Whitby to Scarborough, Yelverton to Princetown, Manifold, High Peak, Stanhope-Consett, Bodmin-Padstow, just to pick a few off the top of the head.

I guess for someone that’s never been outside London it’s possibly a thing of wonder, but seriously this shouldn’t stand in the way of putting it back as a railway.

The others are irrelevant though for anyone near the Parkland Walk fancying an afternoon stroll along a fairly level and leafy route. Such green areas are important for big cities, indeed much more useful than the converted railway lines going through already green areas.

A handy "dark corridor " for bats too!

 

[Mikey C]

Regarding Mill Hill East to Edgware, most of the route is clear, except for the section between Bunns Lane (immediately west of Mill Hill The Hale station) and Page Street. There’s multiple blockages in this section.

I actually walked that route yesterday. A single track reinstatement between Mill Hill East and Page Street would be possible, but not achieve much other than making it easier to get to Saracens matches. That section is actually a very nice walk, and feels far more "wild" than the better known Parkland Walk further east. Indeed other than the occasional bridge going overhead, it feels far less like a disused railway as its surprisingly undulating.

 

[simple simon]

re: No.21 - Southend On Sea - just bring back the Ealing Broadway - Southend Central Southend Corridor Express train. Simples!

A modern train would work with LU automation and all power supply systems.

 

[simple simon]

sorry, duplicate