Tube Strikes: 3rd-6th August (Now 24th to 27th August)

[westv]

Are these likely to carry on into September?

 

[alf]

We’ve been promised that those that don’t want to do the shifts won’t have to but I think it will quickly end up that if you can’t get rid then you have to do them and a lot of the responsibility is being put onto the mafias shoulders who weren’t consulted or involved in any of this and have raised numerous issues already.

Who are the mafia?

 

[Horizon22]

Just to clarify, the strike is not actually a four day strike from 3rd - 6th August.

It is four 24 hour strikes starting at-

• 12 noon on Tuesday 3rd August until 11:59am on Wednesday 4th August
• 12 noon on Thursday 5th August until 11:59am on Friday 6th August
• 12 noon on Tuedsay 24th August until 11:59am on Wednesday 25th August
• 12 noon on Thursday 26th August until 11:59am on Friday 27th August

But that would require The Standard to check its facts before writing a misleading headline, and we can't have that, can we?

I will be in London when the third and fourth strikes are on, but have already worked out my alternative routes for what I want to do.

Years of living in London taught me how to cope with tube strikes, and not let them affect your life too much.

It's a strike over 4 days, so it could be construed either way. As a headline, its a bit harder to explain I suppose!

Who are the mafia?

This is the in house rostering / self-management teams to divide up rosters into very early, early, middle, late, very late etc. I believe.

well, the word on the street is that night tube was never financially profitable so it does beg the question why bring it back when you’re looking to save money.…. my opinion is that if the government push for its return then they should subsidies it but instead they want the workers to pay for it.

ASLEF have agreed to the changes, it was balloted by the RMT and strike action was vote for by the members (im sure the numbers are out there somewhere). I would like to think some type of voluntary approach could be a sensible outcome to resolve this.

It just smacks of a political reason - force TfL to do something that might look good for people but they know will lose them money. I can appreciate LU taking a long-term view with regards to the Night Tube and making various plans to add flexibility for resourcing in the future, but it does all seem a bit premature. As others have said, night buses were an acceptable and pretty decent option for most people.

 

[bramling]

Who are the mafia?

It’s essentially a syndicate arrangement where drivers can join, and one person - the “mafia man” - rearranges everything to give as many people as possible the duties and/or days off they desire.

Generally the “mafia man” is another driver, who will make themselves spare for some or all of the time depending on the location, and for their part the company will release them from driving duties, in order to give them the time to do all the duty rearranging.

In general such arrangements work reasonably well, but they do rely on there being mutual respect, and of course a balance of people wanting to do particular duties. Generally things can run into problems if everyone wants early turns, 9 to 5s or weekends off, which are three popular features.

 

[duncanp]

It's a strike over 4 days, so it could be construed either way. As a headline, its a bit harder to explain I suppose!

The headline in The Standard refers to one four day strike, whereas it should have mentioned four one say strikes.

I wouldn't mind betting that the strikes at the end of August don't go ahead, even if the two next week do.

This is my experience of tube strikes in London, where a strike, or the threat of one, is used by the unions as a negotiating tool.

 

[bramling]

The headline in The Standard refers to one four day strike, whereas it should have mentioned four one say strikes.

I wouldn't mind betting that the strikes at the end of August don't go ahead, even if the two next week do.

This is my experience of tube strikes in London, where a strike, or the threat of one, is used by the unions as a negotiating tool.

I don’t see LU backing down on this one, especially as they’re already in agreement with ASLEF. I think it’s a case of RMT finding a way to put this in the long grass without losing face.

There’s a much bigger potential issue looming over pensions, that could well be TfL’s “Southern” moment.

 

[Mawkie]

Contrary to popular belief, it was never in the train operator agreements about limitation on number of night shifts in passenger service - that was in the service control agreements.
I would usually bow to your greater knowledge, but isn't this covered in the Professional Train Operators Agreement? Trains running past normal traffic hours only happen for a major special event as per PTOA?

In any case, the talks went well today and the latest from RMT is:

**ACAS UPDATE**

Dear General Secretary


Update to RMT members


Today myself and the negotiation team have been at acas from 0900 to 1640.


All of the issues of dispute have been hammered out .


Specifically

Night Tube duties are voluntary

Work life balance cannot be made worse

200 jobs cuts have to be accounted for and resisted.


The company have agreed to meet us again at 0900 on Monday 2nd Aug at acas

Also a reps meeting is being organised at 1430 on Monday. LUL have agreed to release at short notice

All notified strike action remains on

Thanks

John Leach RMT

 

[Falcon1200]

And the strike action achieved this as a new role was brought in instead (PT night tube drivers).

RMT and ASLEF went on strike in 2016 for the night tube to be set up completely from new drivers -

So.... What I understand from this is that the Unions wanted a system where Drivers work permanent nights ? Yet one of the RMT's justifications for this new dispute is the effect on staff work/life balance !!!

It is four 24 hour strikes starting at-

• 12 noon on Tuesday 3rd August until 11:59am on Wednesday 4th August
• 12 noon on Thursday 5th August until 11:59am on Friday 6th August
• 12 noon on Tuedsay 24th August until 11:59am on Wednesday 25th August
• 12 noon on Thursday 26th August until 11:59am on Friday 27th August

Yes, four 24 hour strikes deliberately and cynically designed to wreck the service and passengers' travel plans over eight days. The first strike affects me but I can make other plans, the second seriously inconveniences a 91-year old relative..... thanks RMT.

 

[Mawkie]

So.... What I understand from this is that the Unions wanted a system where Drivers work permanent nights ? Yet one of the RMT's justifications for this new dispute is the effect on staff work/life balance !!!

What was agreed in 2016, by LUL, ASLEF, and RMT, was a dedicated night tube service - the so called oil and water agreement - this meant that full time drivers could not operate trains on night tube duties (and night tube drivers were not allowed to operate 'day' duties - those up to 0130).

The issue for shift workers is the rotating shift pattern - earlies, middles, lates, and nights. The night tube didn't have rotating shifts - it was 16 hrs over a Friday and Saturday night. The night tube was externally advertised and gained interest from many sections of the community - but by far (at least at the beginning) it was populated by people who had something else to do during the week - be that a side hussle, own business, parental responsibilities, and many other wide ranging things.

Part of the 2016 agreement was that night tube applicants could not go full time for 18 months - this was meant to obviate any problems with existing full time station staff who were waiting for train operator training. LUL took the easy way out when there was a sudden need for more full time operators and offered night tube operators the positions - I do see a business case for that decision, they already knew the line, knew the job, and could start immediately. The result of that was those waiting full time applicants were waiting longer and longer for training, in some cases 2 or more years after passing the assessments. Due to covid and the absorption of these night tube operators into full time roles this summer, station staff from the 2017 recruitment campaign are only now coming through!

With regard to comments about union action being devised to create the most inconvenience... Would there be any point if the strike didn't cause as much inconvenience as possible?

To infuriate you even more, the dates were specifically chosen to fall across 2 pay periods, so staff don't lose too much in a single 4 week pay period.

 

[Kite159]

Seems the RMT are still living in that parallel universe where Covid never existed and think the funding pot is bottomless.

But that is nothing new, the new man in charge wants to make a name for himself in causing as much chaos in the post Covid world as possible

 

[bramling]

Seems the RMT are still living in that parallel universe where Covid never existed and think the funding pot is bottomless.

The same could be said for a large segment of the population!

 

[davews]

Yes, four 24 hour strikes deliberately and cynically designed to wreck the service and passengers' travel plans over eight days. The first strike affects me but I can make other plans, the second seriously inconveniences a 91-year old relative..... thanks RMT.

Indeed. For a day trip to London it affects me every day Tuesday to Friday. Next week's walking trip can be done by South Eastern rather than tube but I suspect that will be busy with the lack of tube trains. Hopefully they will see sense on Monday and call it off.

 

[Falcon1200]

The issue for shift workers is the rotating shift pattern - earlies, middles, lates, and nights. The night tube didn't have rotating shifts - it was 16 hrs over a Friday and Saturday night.

Interesting, thanks for the detail. For most of my railway career I worked a three shift roster with, for much of it, one-third of the shifts being nights, and I agree that going onto and coming off nights is difficult, but then it was always part of the job I applied for. To clarify further, does Night Tube only ever operate on Friday and Saturday nights ? Because in that case, given the far greater number of trains, and routes, which operate during the day, surely night turns, if shared between all Drivers, would only constitute a very small fraction of their working lives ?

To infuriate you even more, the dates were specifically chosen to fall across 2 pay periods, so staff don't lose too much in a single 4 week pay period.

Not infuriated, more disappointed that the RMT believes, at a time when the entire transport industry is facing its greatest crisis ever, that (further) disrupting passengers lives is the right thing to do.

 

[Mawkie]

Interesting, thanks for the detail. For most of my railway career I worked a three shift roster with, for much of it, one-third of the shifts being nights, and I agree that going onto and coming off nights is difficult, but then it was always part of the job I applied for. To clarify further, does Night Tube only ever operate on Friday and Saturday nights ? Because in that case, given the far greater number of trains, and routes, which operate during the day, surely night turns, if shared between all Drivers, would only constitute a very small fraction of their working lives ?



Not infuriated, more disappointed that the RMT believes, at a time when the entire transport industry is facing its greatest crisis ever, that (further) disrupting passengers lives is the right thing to do.

So, yes, night tube (passenger service trains) is only Friday and Saturday nights. This is different to the night duties which are in all(?) depots - in my own depot, this week of nights comes around perhaps 6 times per year I think. These duties are primarily to relieve drivers by 0130 and stable the trains. They may do some rusty rail moves, or sleet trains during the night, and then bring trains out of the depot around 0430 for the day shift. The mafia manages to get rid of all my night duties to those that want them (the so-called night men, even the women seem to called night men)! The proposal will mean another 4 weeks of night shifts - and this doesn't include the 8 weeks of 'cover weeks' where any duties can be allocated (nobody I have spoken to is interested in working Friday and Saturday nights, so I expect these duties to be dumped onto the cover weeks when they can't cover them). So, worst case scenario is 18 weeks of nights.

The difference with the new proposal is that there are many more drivers required on Friday and Saturday nights than required Sunday-Thursday nights so there are not enough 'night men' to do a week of nights. The proposal is therefore that drivers would work their normal day shifts and then accommodate 2 night shifts at the weekend. In reality this could mean I work Wednesday morning, Thursday morning, Friday night, Saturday night, rest Sunday (after finishing at 8am!) and back into a day shift on Monday.

Nobody wants to see their conditions worsened during their working life do they? Although there is a £100+ premium, I'm not sure what premium would make me want to do 3 days and 2 night combinations (with a 'rest' day when I'll be asleep for most of it.)

 

[whoosh]

Presently, I believe nights are 7 nights Sunday to Saturday, followed by 4 rest days the following week. This is much easier to get into a rhythm for, and have decent recovery period afterwards.

It isn't "here, there, and everywhere!" which having only two nights per week of an enhanced service will bring to a roster.

 

[J-2739]

Ugh, well I hope that the strike timetable is still usable. Prepare for the worst though!

 

[Falcon1200]

The proposal is therefore that drivers would work their normal day shifts and then accommodate 2 night shifts at the weekend. In reality this could mean I work Wednesday morning, Thursday morning, Friday night, Saturday night, rest Sunday (after finishing at 8am!) and back into a day shift on Monday.

Thanks again for the info. No, such rosters are not ideal, but IMHO an unavoidable part of working in a 24/7 industry. My roster, up until I retired, had a week of 06-18 Sun, 06-14 Mon and Tue, RD Wed, 2200-0600 Thu-Fri and Fri-Sat, and 1800 Sat-0600 Sun. Then back out on the Mon for 14-22. That came around every six weeks, reduced to every five when management decided, very much against our will, that five people could cover our shift roster and additional duties instead of six.

I would definitely agree however that finishing nights and back out for earlies should not be rostered, having had that myself at times in the past; Many years ago, before the nights were split into 4 one week and 3 another, we worked 7 turn nights, finishing at 1000 Sun and back out at 0700 Mon !

Hopefully some form of compromise will be agreed to avoid the strike.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Am I correct in thinking that London Overground services are not affected by the proposed strike action ?

 

[Dstock7080]

Am I correct in thinking that London Overground services are not affected by the proposed strike action ?

Correct, only LU RMT drivers

 

[Tube driver]

Strikes off!

 

[Dstock7080]

RMT suspends Tube strike action this week to allow for further talks

RMT General Secretary Mick Lynch said:
Following extensive and wide ranging discussions through the ACAS machinery we have hammered out enough ground to allow those talks to continue. As a result this week's strike action is suspended although the rest of the planned action rema‎ins on.
I want to thank our members and our reps whose unity and determination has allowed us to reach this stage today and we look forward to pursuing the important issues at the heart of this dispute in the next phase of talks

 

[Falcon1200]

Strikes off!

That's good news for all concerned, thanks.

 

[duncanp]

That's good news for all concerned, thanks.

This often happens.

The RMT use the threat of a strike as a negotiating tactic.

The fact that the industrial action planned for August 24th - 27th "..remains on..." is evidence of this, although I expect this later action to be cancelled as well.

 

[J-2739]

RMT suspends Tube strike action this week to allow for further talks

That's a result and a half!

 

[Horizon22]

Looks like the 24-27th is still firmly on - lots of posters going up and got an email today.

 

[Tube driver]

Funnily enough, Aslef have been saying that it’s all been called off and the local rumour mill is that the RMT are just trying to find a way to back down gracefully whilst saving face. Truth will no doubt be somewhere in the middle.

My money is on a full, normal service (well normal-ish ) come the ‘strike’ days.

 

[Horizon22]

Funnily enough, Aslef have been saying that it’s all been called off and the local rumour mill is that the RMT are just trying to find a way to back down gracefully whilst saving face. Truth will no doubt be somewhere in the middle.

My money is on a full, normal service (well normal-ish ) come the ‘strike’ days.

Hopefully so - the last batch of strikes was all binned with only a day or two to spare also.

 

[whoosh]

Reports on another, tube specific, forum, state that a fair few RMT Drivers have left the union and joined ASLEF - including some RMT Reps interestingly!

 

[Horizon22]

Apparently suspended again:

https://twitter.com/bbctomedwards/status/1428744965044195336?s=21

BREAKING: Next week’s tube strike suspended.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

I have just received an email from TfL stating that strikes are suspended and normal services will run 24 - 27 August.