Tube to change 'ladies and gentlemen' announcements

[Hadders]

A slight variation on this - what is going to happen to the toilets on the Underground?

Until now we have toilets for 'Ladies' and 'Gentlemen'. I was at Kensington Olympia and noticed that new signs have been installed over the old ones that say 'Men' and 'Women'. I've no idea when this was done but do wonder if it is really necessary to make these changes at a time of austerity.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've seen them labelled "men" and "women" for years in some stations?

 

[cactustwirly]

Bear in mind that gender is a social construct. Our Western/British society is historically based around a binary gender system of men and women. Other societies and cultures vary, some have three or more discrete genders, or people with no gender, or people whose gender is a mixture.

I completely disagree, gender/sex is a biological construct, therefore IMO it must be binary, because there are only 2 possible combinations for the 23rd chromosome of your DNA (either XX or XY)
Therefore you are born either male or female*, you are not born asexual** or any other "gender".
To be offended by being called male or female, means that you are too easily offended or dilluded.
If you are not male or female then what are you? That's what I don't understand!
Thats my 2 cents anyway, I do not want to deliberately offend anyone (you are entitled to have your own opinion), I just want to have a meaningful discussion from both sides of the fence.

*I do not however disagree with trans people or having a sex change, if you identify as either male or female.

**unless you have a very rare genetic condition

 

[markydh]

Gender and sex are two very different things. They are not the same.

 

[jopsuk]

"biological sex" simply isn't that binary, intersex is a spectrum and is vastly more common than you think it is.

And when you start to look beyond mammals, then sex chromosomes become very very complicated- eg species that have male/female without sex chromosomes. Those that have W and Z, with WW being male (ducks for example) (many birds are X and Y).
Species of fish that have some populations that are X-Y and some W-Z yet can interbreed. The variable sex chromosome expression in turkeys where only the dominant male in a flock fully expresses as male, while he subservient ones produce female hormones- but should the dominant one die, they will fight and the winner will start producing more male hormones and develop the visible male characteristics.

Don't give me that "the biology is binary" stuff. It is utter rubbish.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I completely disagree, gender/sex is a biological construct, therefore IMO it must be binary, because there are only 2 possible combinations for the 23rd chromosome of your DNA (either XX or XY)
Therefore you are born either male or female*, you are not born asexual** or any other "gender".
To be offended by being called male or female, means that you are too easily offended or dilluded.
If you are not male or female then what are you? That's what I don't understand!
Thats my 2 cents anyway, I do not want to deliberately offend anyone (you are entitled to have your own opinion), I just want to have a meaningful discussion from both sides of the fence.

*I do not however disagree with trans people or having a sex change, if you identify as either male or female.

**unless you have a very rare genetic condition

Sex is biological. Gender is a construct.

Sex is based on chromosomes, and generally for humans that falls into XX (female) and XY (male). Gender however is a societal meme. Beyond things explicitly related to sexual organs, there is not really anything that a man can do which a woman can't (or vice versa). Men may be generally better at physical activities due to sexual hormones and thus muscle development, but that's about it. There's no reason you can't have a female bricklayer or a male nursery school teacher.

Asexual generally refers to the sexuality, not a gender/sex. An asexual person is not physically attracted to people, though they may still experience romantic attraction, and this is completely unrelated to sex or gender.

If you're not male or female, you're whatever you want to be. If you are male or female, you're whatever you want to be. Well, perhaps want is the wrong word here. Gender is not something one chooses - it's a deep-seated feeling "this is who I am". For most people that falls easily into male or female, but for some neither feels quite right.

 

[MCR247]

I completely disagree, gender/sex is a biological construct, therefore IMO it must be binary, because there are only 2 possible combinations for the 23rd chromosome of your DNA (either XX or XY)
Therefore you are born either male or female*, you are not born asexual** or any other "gender".
To be offended by being called male or female, means that you are too easily offended or dilluded.
If you are not male or female then what are you? That's what I don't understand!
Thats my 2 cents anyway, I do not want to deliberately offend anyone (you are entitled to have your own opinion), I just want to have a meaningful discussion from both sides of the fence.

*I do not however disagree with trans people or having a sex change, if you identify as either male or female.

**unless you have a very rare genetic condition

Assuming you identify as either a male or female, who exactly are you to tell other people what they identify as? Why do you feel that you, someone who has no idea how a certain person feels etc are able to just dismiss them because it doesn't fit into your theory on how things work?

You say you don't want to deliberately offend anyone following a post where you've just called people 'too easily offended' or 'deluded.' Well that is offensive, and putting that line at the end doesn't make it any less offensive.

 

[Amaroussi]

I appreciate their approach to LGBT rights and protections, but it seems a bit too oddly specific.

On a satirical note …

Attachment description: Dr. Nick's catchphrase is "Hi Everybody!". The similarities with the replacement greeting is notable.

 

[cjp]

I don't like the informality of "hello everyone".

They could use "Your attention, please" as an alternative, though.

Yes!

 

[dcsprior]

Gender and sex are two very different things. They are not the same.

Sex is biological. Gender is a construct.

Having had a quick google for "difference between sex and gender", I don't think the definition of gender as meaning something other than sex is universal. I'd wager that when most people use the word gender, they use it to mean the exact same thing as sex. I'd even go far as to say that the main reason that people use the word gender is that the word sex can also mean other things (hence the bad joke of writing "yes please" on the "sex" field of a form).

If I'm being honest, I don't really understand how people can be neither male nor female: as the previous poster said, we're taught in school that people are born with female genitalia (with XX chromosomes), or male genitalia (and XY). I can understand that people may change from female to male or vice versa, but not how people can be neither or both (barring very rare genetic / physical conditions)...

...but then I don't understand how matter can be turned to energy, and my lack of understanding doesn't stop nuclear power or weapons from functioning. So I'd treat this as the same thing: whether or not I understand it, this discussion demonstrates that there clearly are some people who do feel excluded by "ladies and gentlemen" - given the option of preventing this feeling of exclusion at minimal cost, it seems like a no-brainer.

I don't like the informality of "hello everyone".

They could use "Your attention, please" as an alternative, though.

Yes!

I disagree: "hello everyone" sounds friendly, if a little too informal, whereas "Your attention please" is something I'd expect to precede an order or an emergency announcement. Perhaps something like "good [time of day] and welcome to [station] underground station" as the opening could be a compromoise?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree: "hello everyone" sounds friendly, if a little too informal, whereas "Your attention please" is something I'd expect to precede an order or an emergency announcement. Perhaps something like "good [time of day] and welcome to [station] underground station" as the opening could be a compromoise?

You could just use "good <time of day>" without the suffix.

I think you need something - the prefix rather than going into the announcement straight away gives people time to "tune into" it.

There are of course the classics, such as "this is a special announcement" (=> this announcement can be ignored). (Though I think the ATOS PIS uses it to precede a cancellation announcement as well).

 

[bramling]

You could just use "good <time of day>" without the suffix.

I think you need something - the prefix rather than going into the announcement straight away gives people time to "tune into" it.

There are of course the classics, such as "this is a special announcement" (=> this announcement can be ignored). (Though I think the ATOS PIS uses it to precede a cancellation announcement as well).

What's wrong with a simple chime?

(Apart from the fact that it takes us back to where we were in 1989, which rather makes a mockery of all the touchy-freely iterations we have been through in the meantime. The great railway revolving door goes round and round...)

 

[GusB]

The supermarket I worked in had a fairly simple system:

"Staff announcement..."
"Customer announcement..." (usually followed by "would the owner of car reg LnnnLLL please return to the car park - you've left your lights on")

 

[Strat-tastic]

What's wrong with a simple chime?

Hi-De-Hi passengers!

Ho-De-Bleedin'-Ho

 

[AlterEgo]

Sex is biological. Gender is a construct.

Gender - the state of being male or female - is not a construct, but gender roles are.

A social construct is something which is generally agreed by a society via consensus.

Many things are social constructs. Gender roles are. Social class. Government. Marriage/concept of. Education. Religion. Race.

Some of those are benign, and some of those are not. Some of those are very beneficial to society, and some less so. Some social constructs are controversial.

The social construct of gender roles has underpinned British/English society in its many guises for millennia. It has served us well until now, with division of labour, child-rearing roles, rich culture, and so on. We are a dominant society along with other Western societies which have similar values; an exceptionally productive, wealthy and successful people.

It's also long been accepted that some people do not feel male or female. Some feel neither, some both, some people feel "gender fluid", some feel like they are not actually people at all, but aliens, or animals, or something else. Britain has a long history of non-binary people making great contribution to society. I'm all for the protection of people's rights to exist as full members of society.

However, I've yet to see a proper argument that gender roles are in any way harmful to us as a society.

 

[gavin]

I guess this hasn't rolled out yet to the major tube stations? plenty of 'Ladies and Gentlemen' announcements when I was on the tube last week - Kings Cross, Euston, London Bridge, Bank, Leicester Square and Knightsbridge to name a few

 

[bramling]

I guess this hasn't rolled out yet to the major tube stations? plenty of 'Ladies and Gentlemen' announcements when I was on the tube last week - Kings Cross, Euston, London Bridge, Bank, Leicester Square and Knightsbridge to name a few

Certainly not been rolled out on the trains side of the business - nothing been said at all. The general consensus among train staff is that this is a step too far, and thus I wouldn't expect much compliance should anything come out.

 

[Deerfold]

Certainly not been rolled out on the trains side of the business - nothing been said at all. The general consensus among train staff is that this is a step too far, and thus I wouldn't expect much compliance should anything come out.

A step too far? Too far towards what? To making sure people don't feel excluded?

 

[bramling]

A step too far? Too far towards what? To making sure people don't feel excluded?

Rightly or wrongly, this is the vibes I have picked up. I haven't really had the chance to probe further.

 

[GW43125]

Certainly not been rolled out on the trains side of the business - nothing been said at all.

I heard one such announcement on the Picc on Saturday, I think it was Earl's Court or somewhere around there. Certainly going to take some getting used to.

 

[AY1975]

On German trains they say "Meine Damen und Herren, in wenigen Minuten erreichen wir Köln Hauptbahnhof" ("Ladies and gentlemen, in a few minutes we reach Cologne main station"). But sometimes instead of "Meine Damen und Herren" they say "Werte Fahrgäste" ("Dear passengers" or "Valued passengers"). Not sure if that would sound right in English, though.

 

[TRAX]

Genetics anyone ?

 

[theshillito]

Genetics anyone ?

Don't.

 

[MCR247]

Genetics anyone ?

If you're trying to restart the 'there is only two genders' debate then as theshillito said please don't

 

[matt_world2004]

Ive heard customer information at paddington and kings cross but they have been saying this for years.

 

[rg177]

I did hear a "Hello Everyone" a good few weeks ago out on the Upminster branch of the District so it's clearly starting to be rolled out.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

 

[methethpropbut]

I heard the "Hello Everyone" / "Dear Passengers" announcement last night... on VTEC though, the 19:35 service from Edinburgh. I noticed it, but if anything it was pretty subtle and could easily be missed.

Wonder if it'll eventually be rolled out throughout the country!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is so stupid IMO. “Hello everyone” is horribly informal. Definitely I think they should stick to “Ladies and Gentlemen” without a doubt.

 

[Dstock7080]

Operational Standards Notice 135 now issued, saying Rule Books 1 and 11 will be operational from 1 January 2018 and will remove “Ladies and Gentlemen” from all announcements.

 

[bluegoblin7]

This is so stupid IMO. “Hello everyone” is horribly informal. Definitely I think they should stick to “Ladies and Gentlemen” without a doubt.

Agree on the former, absolutely not on the matter.

I'm not going to get embroiled in a conversation about this because it's wearing me out enough on the internal Yammer, but this change is about far more than just gender. It makes the tube accessible to a whole host of people who find ladies and gentlemen archaic and uncomfortable, whilst still not excluding anybody. Removing this announcement is *more* inclusive than the current offing.

It is not being prescribed a replacement - the "Hello everyone" was invented by the media - and staff are encouraged to add their own, inclusive, flair when making PAs.

Inclusivity is very much the flavour of the day.