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Tube Train Running With Doors Open.

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Mojo

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From the video, it was on the Jubilee line between Finchley Road & West Hampstead on the Northbound.
 

Mojo

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Surely the brakes would apply if not all doors are shut? This looks pretty serious!
On LU trains the door interlock is not connected with the brakes, unlike modern trains on the Mainline. On LU the lack of doors closed visual simply prevents motoring. As the train can quite clearly be heard to be motoring, either the train doors have been cut out, or there is some type of fault.
 

district

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The article quotes “the driver thought it was OK to keep the doors open” which is obviously nonsense - no driver would knowingly move a train with the doors open.
 

Bayum

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The article quotes “the driver thought it was OK to keep the doors open” which is obviously nonsense - no driver would knowingly move a train with the doors open.
Where?
 

district

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samuelmorris

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On LU trains the door interlock is not connected with the brakes, unlike modern trains on the Mainline. On LU the lack of doors closed visual simply prevents motoring. As the train can quite clearly be heard to be motoring, either the train doors have been cut out, or there is some type of fault.
People leaning on the doors too hard does lead to emergency brake application though, it's happened numerous times when I've been travelling and when the driver makes a PA about it to tell off whoever the offender is, you can hear the alarm going off in the background.
Likewise I've seen a DLR unit where someone has slipped and grabbed hold of the door to steady themselves and pull it open a good couple of inches in transit and the train has stopped with the emergency tone sounding, so there's definitely something there, though I don't imagine it works the same way as mainline stock.

Very curious to see the outcome of this.
 

Darandio

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The article quotes “the driver thought it was OK to keep the doors open” which is obviously nonsense - no driver would knowingly move a train with the doors open.

The use of sarcasm doesn't need to be explained here, surely?
 

Dstock7080

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People leaning on the doors too hard does lead to emergency brake application though, it's happened numerous times when I've been travelling and when the driver makes a PA about it to tell off whoever the offender is, you can hear the alarm going off in the background.
Sorry, as has been said leaning on the doors does not cause an automatic emergency brake application except by manual intervention of the driver.
 

samuelmorris

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Sorry, as has been said leaning on the doors does not cause an automatic emergency brake application except by manual intervention of the driver.
Yes, hence the use of the phrase 'leads to' in my post, I didn't want to imply the process was automatic. Nonetheless, the driver would surely at least have been aware of this situation, and the train should at least have been inhibited from taking power surely?
 

bramling

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Yes, hence the use of the phrase 'leads to' in my post, I didn't want to imply the process was automatic. Nonetheless, the driver would surely at least have been aware of this situation, and the train should at least have been inhibited from taking power surely?

The pilot light SHOULD have become extinguished, which in turn SHOULD have prevented the train motoring. It is feasible that a driver could not notice the pilot light going out AND the train could continue to coast.

Barring wrong-side failure the only way to make a train motor with doors open is for the driver to break a seal and operate a cut-out switch. Drivers used to be trained that ANY time that switch is operated a check of the full length of the train must be carried out to ensure all doors are closed, and the train should be withdrawn from service at the next station. Nowadays there is a procedure which allows a train to be driven to a station at 5mph with interlocks cut out after having made an announcement advising passengers to pull an alarm if doors are open.

On most trains (and I think this includes 96 stock) there is no alarm in the cab, just the pilot light going out. I think the TBTC display also shows a text message saying “Door Close Lost”.
 

samuelmorris

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Nah you can hear in the video it's not coasting, it's still accelerating, and it's well over 5mph as well. Sounds like the cut-out issue to me?
 

bramling

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Nah you can hear in the video it's not coasting, it's still accelerating, and it's well over 5mph as well. Sounds like the cut-out issue to me?

It’s possible, although it would be a quite serious error to cut out the interlock and then depart with many doors open. Unfortunately these sorts of incidents do have a habit of being down to driver error, but we should remain open minded until more facts are known.

For doors to open on the move AND then no loss of pilot light / motoring would mean not one but two wrong-side failures, which is unlikely, but again never rule out a freak set of circumstances.

I love the way LU say the average speed of a tube train is 20mph. That may or may not be factually true, however that train is doing rather more than 20 mph. Maximum speed on the Jubilee is 60 mph, although I’m not sure what the maximum safe speed is in the area concerned, nor what is actually attained in reality.
 
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samuelmorris

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Take a ride in the peak on the surface lines in peak hours and you'd wish it was as high as 20, but yes, from what I can hear, that train is approaching 35-40 by the end of the clip, by no means full speed, but still an alarming speed to be travelling with a door open.
 

bramling

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Take a ride in the peak on the surface lines in peak hours and you'd wish it was as high as 20, but yes, from what I can hear, that train is approaching 35-40 by the end of the clip, by no means full speed, but still an alarming speed to be travelling with a door open.

Indeed. I’d agree that it looks like a good 35 mph to me.

One thing of possible interest. If the door interlock cut out switch is operated for whatever reason, I have a strong feeling there isn’t actually much to tell / remind the driver that the switch has been operated

Ordinarily this shouldn’t be a problem, but one could conceivably have a scenario where the switch is operated for some reason (perhaps an attempt at trying to identify a defect), not put back afterwards, then there’s no protection against the train simply moving with doors open if the driver gets tied in knots over something. Can’t remember precisely but I have a feeling the train will still move in ATO.

However, we should keep open minded in the absence of solid facts.
 

philthetube

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There is obviously an issue with one set of doors being open, there is no way to achieve this from the cab. The only way to do it would be to close all the other cars individually from the platform.
 

jon0844

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I think it's the future. No more missing trains because the doors are locked. Heck, you can even get on trains that don't stop at your station.

The modern Routemaster of the rails!

And dispatch would be easier too. No need for CD or checking lights, just RA and off it goes...
 

bramling

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I think it's the future. No more missing trains because the doors are locked. Heck, you can even get on trains that don't stop at your station.

The modern Routemaster of the rails!

And dispatch would be easier too. No need for CD or checking lights, just RA and off it goes...

Fit for the future trains!
 

bramling

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There is obviously an issue with one set of doors being open, there is no way to achieve this from the cab. The only way to do it would be to close all the other cars individually from the platform.

According to many of the reports it does seem to be more than one set. By the sound if it the reports seem to be suggesting it was most or all of the train.

It’s actually a scenario which is very easy to do - just break a seal, flick a switch and (I think) press the ATO start buttons. Naturally I’m sure there will be more to it than that.
 
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The report said that there were "many" doors open, not sure if that was true or not. If there were more than one set open it's puzzling why they weren't all open as they all open at a station, unlike on NR where the pax have to press a button to open them.
If it's only one set it would still have to be 2 failures. The failure of the door closing system and also the detection system.

Incidently, but slightly related to this, IIRC a while back there were problems with some new TfL trains where the acceleration was such that the doors were coming open slightly and it was cutting out the motors.

Although I know it's not good to speculate, my money would be on human error with this one. The idea that the technology alone would allow this is serious in the extreme and would surely lead to a "drains up" on the type of stock involved.
 
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bionic

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Barring wrong-side failure the only way to make a train motor with doors open is for the driver to break a seal and operate a cut-out switch. Drivers used to be trained that ANY time that switch is operated a check of the full length of the train must be carried out to ensure all doors are closed, and the train should be withdrawn from service at the next station. Nowadays there is a procedure which allows a train to be driven to a station at 5mph with interlocks cut out after having made an announcement advising passengers to pull an alarm if doors are open.

I'd completely forgotten about that 5mph rule until you mentioned it (I left LU not long after it was introduced), along with other things like being able to set back blind in reverse after a spad or platform overrun up to one car length. There was a lot of indignation at the time - just before the Olympics - from drivers with many saying they'd walk back and check the doors / change ends anyway due to genuine health and safety concerns. I was one of them. The union reps also backed this view.

The training, assessment and selection process was also watered down and the bar lowered around this time too. Stock on my line went from 3 or 4 weeks to just four days! No surprise that trainees were coming through with no idea of what a triple valve was or how it worked and with no idea how to locate the 630v equipment, let alone isolate it!
 

bramling

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The report said that there were "many" doors open, not sure if that was true or not. If there were more than one set open it's puzzling why they weren't all open as they all open at a station, unlike on NR where the pax have to press a button to open them.
If it's only one set it would still have to be 2 failures. The failure of the door closing system and also the detection system.

Incidently, but slightly related to this, IIRC a while back there were problems with some new TfL trains where the acceleration was such that the doors were coming open slightly and it was cutting out the motors.

Although I know it's not good to speculate, my money would be on human error with this one. The idea that the technology alone would allow this is serious in the extreme and would surely lead to a "drains up" on the type of stock involved.

There are a couple of obvious possibilities.

If we assume the interlock switch has been operated, which unless there’s been a wrong-side failure MUST have happened.

If the train has already been taken out of service due to door problems that would give us a reason for the switch to be operated. All we need then is a reason for the doors
to be open unknown to the driver. Perhaps confusion over who has tipped out what parts of the train (although the driver should still check)? Passengers would naturally have the opportunity to unwittingly join the train if they arrived on the platform after announcements.

Another possibility is the same scenario but all the doors opening of their own accord unknown to the driver after initial tip out. He wouldn’t necessarily hear or see this if doing something else at the moment, like for example being on the radio to the signaller, and wouldn’t notice the pilot light going out as it already would have been out for a known door defect. The TBTC system can cause doors on a whole train to open without the open buttons being pressed - this certainly happens in known situations in the Northern, although it wouldn’t do it if the train was on the move. One scenario for this is at the point where the train’s destination has been altered by the signaller - again something very likely to be going on for a defective train just taken out of service.

Something like the latter is what my money’s on - it would also explain why the train isn’t very busy- supposed to have been empty and these passengers are ones who have unwittingly boarded.

But, as I posted earlier, we should keep an open mind - it could be some kind of technical failure, albeit a very serious one.
 

whhistle

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The article quotes “the driver thought it was OK to keep the doors open” which is obviously nonsense - no driver would knowingly move a train with the doors open.
Where?
In a message to Transport for London, he wrote: 'Took the Jubilee line Saturday with @roryfergusbrown and the driver thought it was ok to leave the doors open...better than the air con but not particularly safe!?!'
So a customer has said this.
The driver/TfL did not say this.

Two very different things ;)

The article does say the customer suggested "about 10 sets of doors" were open.
How they would be able to see this, I don't know. Even if they could see into the carriage next, that's still not 10 sets of doors.
If the person managed to walk from one end of the carriage to the other to check the following carriage, that's still not 10 sets of doors.

And after all that, he's suggesting nobody in three carriages he could see would have pulled the passcom?!
 

rebmcr

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If we assume the interlock switch has been operated, which unless there’s been a wrong-side failure MUST have happened.

Another possibility is the same scenario but all the doors opening of their own accord unknown to the driver after initial tip out.

It's plausible that, if there was a door fault which affected the close/open function, the switch could have been operated as part of the troubleshooting procedure, leaving the train in a state of "open/close faulty" AND "interlock cut-out" at the same time.
 

jon0844

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I can see why someone might film the doors for 'evidence' to report (plus the obvious 'need' to post on social media) but if someone could walk through and see ten sets of doors open then I'd have hoped they would have used the alarm to alert the driver long before then.
 
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