Turbos being cleared as far as Castle Cary and refurbishment

[TheWalrus]

Whilst reading a few of the latest rail magazines this afternoon I noticed a picture of a 166+165 at Castle Cary, as FGW had been sending them down there to check platform clearances at Pewsey and Westbury. I know a while back someone posted a map in a thread regarding the future of turbos, showing which routes they are clear for stating they are clear as far as Castle Cary.

Therefore what are the prospects of them being able to work further West to Taunton and Exeter? I think they would be suited to operate Exmouth-Exeter-Barnstaple/Paignton when displaced by EMUs.

Also I have read they are being refurbished (again?!) soon, will the seating be reconfigured to 2+2 opposed to 2+3? Probably wishful thinking but it lets down an otherwise good unit which could be a good candidate for longer distance journeys in the West.

With the turbos now completely cleared to Castle Cary, I feel it is not unreasonable for FGW to extend Bedwyn terminators to at least Westbury.

 

[sonic2009]

I think the plan is to extend them to Westbury when Reading is shut over Easter.

 

[tsr]

Also I have read they are being refurbished (again?!) soon, will the seating be reconfigured to 2+2 opposed to 2+3? Probably wishful thinking but it lets down an otherwise good unit which could be a good candidate for longer distance journeys in the West.

2+2 seating is already present on some 3-car units' middle coaches. However, the actual seats are pretty much the same as the ones for the 3+2 coaches. I share your view that 2+2 seating is more suitable for any longer journeys, but those who feel the need to sit on packed commuter routes - some of which may have medium-length journey times of, say, up to 80 or 90 minutes - would be disadvantaged. I have been on many Turbos/Turbo Expresses where there has been a need for every seat and many of those seats have remained occupied by the passenger for over an hour. Thus, the current seating layout is the best possible job in the circumstances. Perhaps there could be a subclass with more spacious seating in a 2+2 layout, and this could be offered on longer-distance journeys or journeys against the peak flow.

 

[willc789]

On one of there regular 'tweet the manager' session I asked about them reaching Castle Cary over easter with Reading shut but they were adamant that they would only reach Westbury, with Cary still be served with the usual HST's.

I went further to ask if/when they would get to Cary and from the answer they gave it seems as if they will be run into Cary as part of Glastonbury Festival as additional relief services which makes sense.

 

[anthony263]

There are photos on flickr of the class 165/166's at Castle Cary and they have been to Weymouth before.

I do suspect that they will eventually work most of the lines around Bristol where they can be cleared including hopefully the Swindon - Westbury - Salisbury service.


I do hope they wil change the seating layout on them now that they are going away again for refurbishment inlcuding being fitted with new acessible toilets

 

[TheWalrus]

2+3 may be needed on Thames Valley commuter services but more rural, longer distance services in the West would probably better suit 2+2. I personally can't stand the turbo seating for any more than about 45 minutes and certainly wouldn't put up with it on over 3 hour trips if they were to do Cardiff-Portsmouth.

 

[TEW]

With the turbos now completely cleared to Castle Cary, I feel it is not unreasonable for FGW to extend Bedwyn terminators to at least Westbury.

There's two problems with it though, it would require extra stock and you need guards from somewhere. The Bedwyn services run as DOO but they would need a guard on from Bedwyn-Westbury. I'm not sure how they are finding crews for them when Reading as shut as normally there would be no guards or drivers who sign Bedwyn-Westbury and turbos.

 

[TheWalrus]

Westbury crew have learnt as far as Newbury. There should be a bit of extra stock as they have just taken on 5 180s. It would only require one extra turbo to operate hourly to Westbury. It would need looking into.

 

[TEW]

The 5 180s were taken onto to provide much needed extra peak capacity to London, not to work services which will be very quiet through to Westbury.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

2+3 may be needed on Thames Valley commuter services but more rural, longer distance services in the West would probably better suit 2+2. I personally can't stand the turbo seating for any more than about 45 minutes and certainly wouldn't put up with it on over 3 hour trips if they were to do Cardiff-Portsmouth.

the only 3+2 that i've seen work well on a variety of services is the 'bus seat' pacers because each seat is a simple bench so can be any arrangement from a leisurely and spread out 2+1 on lightly loaded services to 3+2 on urban stuff.

 

[richw]

165001 has made it to Plymouth in the early 90s, but needed the passenger door stepboards removed for clearance.

 

[anthony263]

165001 has made it to Plymouth in the early 90s, but needed the passenger door stepboards removed for clearance.

1st I have ever heard of this since I thought the most westernly point they have ever reached was Weymouth or Bristol Temple Meads & Hereford

 

[richw]

1st I have ever heard of this since I thought the most westernly point they have ever reached was Weymouth or Bristol Temple Meads & Hereford

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/165001-visits-devon.html

http://www.totnestrains.com/class-165.html

 

[Rich McLean]

Here is a few photos:

Bottom photo is at Newton Abbott

 

[fgwrich]

Westbury crew have learnt as far as Newbury. There should be a bit of extra stock as they have just taken on 5 180s. It would only require one extra turbo to operate hourly to Westbury. It would need looking into.

The 5 180s were taken onto to provide much needed extra peak capacity to London, not to work services which will be very quiet through to Westbury.

Exactly. It may be possible when the Thames Valley is modernised in the next franchise and the mass exodus of the Turbo fleet starts to begin - or if the Electrification does become extended to Westbury, but for now a stopping service to Pewsey and Westbury is just not feasable.

*I did wonder about Pewsey though, but the lack of run round / loop facilites put's that idea off.

 

[RPM]

Intesting photos. I didn't know 001 had been to Devon. Missing a rubber surround on the DA side window I see.

I'm sure I remember seeing a photo in a magazine years ago showing a 165 at Newcastle?

There used to be a regular working that took a 165 to Bristol about ten years ago - a joint Thames Trains/First Great Western service that ran from Bicester Town and reversed at Didcot.

If they eventually go the Bristol area, are the line speeds on those routes generally in the 75-90mph range. If not it might make more sense to transfer the Chiltern 165s to Bristol and transfer the FGW 165/6s to Chiltern who could make better use of their 90mph capability.

 

[anthony263]

Intesting photos. I didn't know 001 had been to Devon. Missing a rubber surround on the DA side window I see.

I'm sure I remember seeing a photo in a magazine years ago showing a 165 at Newcastle?

There used to be a regular working that took a 165 to Bristol about ten years ago - a joint Thames Trains/First Great Western service that ran from Bicester Town and reversed at Didcot.

If they eventually go the Bristol area, are the line speeds on those routes generally in the 75-90mph range. If not it might make more sense to transfer the Chiltern 165s to Bristol and transfer the FGW 165/6s to Chiltern who could make better use of their 90mph capability.

I wouldnt be too surprised to see some of the class 165/166's currently with FGW moving to Chiltern.

I wouldn't mind the chiltern 165's since I think they do have a nicer interior compared to those operated by FGW.

There is a video on youtube of a 165 departing Bristol Temple Meads and I have seen a photo online of a 165 @ Bath Spa although I havent seen any photos of the class 165's at Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[PHILIPE]

They used to work to Bristol on a short lived Bristol to Oxford service in the early part of the last decade. They won't be on any ne routes until the electrification cascade starts.

 

[Zoe]

Exactly. It may be possible when the Thames Valley is modernised in the next franchise and the mass exodus of the Turbo fleet starts to begin - or if the Electrification does become extended to Westbury, but for now a stopping service to Pewsey and Westbury is just not feasable.

The 2006 franchise planned to axe the current semi-fast Paddington to Exeter service introduced in December 2004 and extend Bedwyn terminators through to Westbury although I seem to remember reading the draft timetable showing that these would be skip-stop off peak with trains alternately calling Newbury - Kintbury - Hungerford - Bedwyn - Westbury and Newbury - Hungerford - Pewsey - Westbury. I'm not sure if these services would have been worked turbos though. In the end it was decided to retain the semi-fast Exeter service though and the Bedwyn terminators remained.

I seem to remember the draft timetable was very unpopular and also included having every Plymouth/Penzance train call at Taunton and Newton Abbot (which would have slowed down journey times). For some reason that isn't immediately obvious, the Down Cornish Riviera still calls at Newton Abbot when it never used to and the Up service doesn't. The Up Royal Duchy now calls at Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter, Tiverton Parkway and Taunton when it once ran non-stop from Plymouth to Exeter and then from Exeter to Reading.

 

[jimm]

For some reason that isn't immediately obvious, the Down Cornish Riviera still calls at Newton Abbot when it never used to and the Up service doesn't. The Up Royal Duchy now calls at Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter, Tiverton Parkway and Taunton when it once ran non-stop from Plymouth to Exeter and then from Exeter to Reading.

It not obvious looking at the FGW pocket timetable for West of England services, because for some reason (probably a production error) it omits all Torbay connections and only shows the through trains between London and Paignton, but the down Cornish Riviera (arrives NA at 12.29) gives a connection at 12.40 for Torquay and Paignton - unless you prefer to go on the 10.00 Torbay 'Express' from Paddington all the way round via Bristol and take another 50 minutes on the journey. However, the up train is followed into Exeter just 15 minutes later by the 11.06 from Paignton to Paddington, so no need for a call by the Riviera at Newton Abbot in that direction.

Without the calls by the up Royal Duchy there would be a big hole in the service at those stations at a busy time of the day - it's as much about covering local journeys in Devon as long-distance travel. In the days of FGW Mk1 (expresses only) and Wessex Trains, it wasn't really FGW's problem covering local journeys, since 2006 it is, so they use all the resources they have got to best effect, same as HSTs filling in on some London-Oxford runs between long-distance journeys.

 

[Zoe]

However, the up train is followed into Exeter just 15 minutes later by the 11.06 from Paignton to Paddington, so no need for a call by the Riviera at Newton Abbot in that direction.

Although the Up Cornish Riviera didn't call at Newton Abbot even when the current 1106 from Paignton started from Exeter. Anyone wanting to travel from Torbay at that time would have needed to change at Exeter. Looking at the timetable though, getting Torbay passengers to change off the Down Cornish Riviera at Exeter would not work currently as the hourly local service leaves Exeter before the Cornish Riviera arrives and is overtaken at Dawlish Warren. Before December 2006, the Down service did run non-stop to Plymouth from Exeter but I'm not sure if there was a connection available at Exeter for Paignton back then.

 

[TheWalrus]

The 5 180s were taken onto to provide much needed extra peak capacity to London, not to work services which will be very quiet through to Westbury.

I didn't say that. You can move unit allocations around to work something out without 180s to Westbury.

The easiest way would be to ditch Oxford-Banbury or something else to free up a unit. I would think it'd make sense transferring it to Chiltern, but I'm not suggesting ditching services!

 

[jimm]

I didn't say that. You can move unit allocations around to work something out without 180s to Westbury.

The easiest way would be to ditch Oxford-Banbury or something else to free up a unit. I would think it'd make sense transferring it to Chiltern, but I'm not suggesting ditching services!

The unit allocations were moved around after the arrival of the 180s to get as many five-car and six-car Turbo formations as possible into and out of Paddington to cut overcrowding in the peaks, not to send Turbos off to run half-empty or worse into rural Wiltshire - and Chiltern's train fleet is just as stretched, so adding extra jobs is a non-starter. For them the closure of Oxford-Bicester for rebuilding of the line for up to two years is going to be a blessing, as the 165 that frees up makes it a lot easier to allow a set to go away to Wolverton for the overhaul programme.

 

[TheWalrus]

They already go half empty or worse into rural wiltshire anyway currently after Newbury I shouldn't think it's barely worth it. If you extend it to a more desirable destination It Is more likely to be worth it as more people will use it. For example I live near Bedwyn and Pewsey but never use them as the service doesn't go anywhere I want to go! A regular westbound service to Westbury would at least partially serve my needs and therefore I among others are more likely to use it.

 

[route:oxford]

I didn't say that. You can move unit allocations around to work something out without 180s to Westbury.

The easiest way would be to ditch Oxford-Banbury or something else to free up a unit. I would think it'd make sense transferring it to Chiltern, but I'm not suggesting ditching services!

Or subcontracting the portion of the service between Oxford & Banbury to Go-op as part of their planned Westbury-Moor Street service?

 

[Spanner4333]

165001 has made it to Plymouth in the early 90s, but needed the passenger door stepboards removed for clearance.

Always makes me ask the question why? Surely if there is a standard loading gauge across the network then the clearance should be ok.

 

[TheWalrus]

I didn't say that. You can move unit allocations around to work something out without 180s to Westbury.

The easiest way would be to ditch Oxford-Banbury or something else to free up a unit. I would think it'd make sense transferring it to Chiltern, but I'm not suggesting ditching services!

Or subcontracting the portion of the service between Oxford & Banbury to Go-op as part of their planned Westbury-Moor Street service?

Could do, when is it supposed to start?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

165001 has made it to Plymouth in the early 90s, but needed the passenger door stepboards removed for clearance.

Which route did it take and which platforms did it not clear with the stepboards?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Westbury crew have learnt as far as Newbury. There should be a bit of extra stock as they have just taken on 5 180s. It would only require one extra turbo to operate hourly to Westbury. It would need looking into.

The 5 180s were taken onto to provide much needed extra peak capacity to London, not to work services which will be very quiet through to Westbury.

Exactly. It may be possible when the Thames Valley is modernised in the next franchise and the mass exodus of the Turbo fleet starts to begin - or if the Electrification does become extended to Westbury, but for now a stopping service to Pewsey and Westbury is just not feasable.

*I did wonder about Pewsey though, but the lack of run round / loop facilites put's that idea off.

They could possibly go down to Woodborough sidings and turn around there.

 

[anthony263]

Or subcontracting the portion of the service between Oxford & Banbury to Go-op as part of their planned Westbury-Moor Street service?

Thats if this open acess operation ever goes ahead which is unlikely in my opinion

 

[richw]

The walrus, I don't know which route was taken, nor which platforms were problematic. I was only aware of it through a discussion on another forum where the links I shared had been provided as sources verifying they had been to Plymouth

 

[jimm]

Always makes me ask the question why? Surely if there is a standard loading gauge across the network then the clearance should be ok.

I suspect you would find that it was more because they suspected there could be the odd platform edge where there might be a problem, than that someone had actually pinned down for certain that the stepboards would definitely hit something somewhere. Better safe than tearing a stepboard off a shiny new train...

They already go half empty or worse into rural wiltshire anyway currently after Newbury I shouldn't think it's barely worth it. If you extend it to a more desirable destination It Is more likely to be worth it as more people will use it. For example I live near Bedwyn and Pewsey but never use them as the service doesn't go anywhere I want to go! A regular westbound service to Westbury would at least partially serve my needs and therefore I among others are more likely to use it.

But there was already an established need to deal with the hideous overcrowding in the Thames Valley (a couple of years back, most of the 10 most overcrowded train on the network were Paddington commuter services), which was why the DfT agreed to the deal to fund the 180s and the extra HST trailers converted from buffet cars - far better cost-benefit ratio, so for the moment, going to Westbury is a non-runner, but if the case for the wires is sound then Westbury obviously makes a better end point for a service than Bedwyn, unless someone perhaps has an LM-style alternative route in mind - ie Bristol via Westbury by emu in the style of Euston to Crewe via Stoke on a 350.