Turin-Milan-Turin High Speed Line

[dangie]

Small time rail enthusiast here.

On Wednesday mid afternoon, I traveled for about 60km on the A4 Autostrada in Northern Italy between Turin and Milan. For all of these km's the railway runs parallel with the road. I believe this is a High Speed Line.

During the time 40-45 minutes I was on the road, only two trains went past, both travelling in the Milan-Turin direction. One was a Frecciarossa, the other a Italo. Nothing at all came past in the Turin-Milan direction.

This seems an awful waste of money. A high speed line with hardly anything on it. Is this normal..??

 

[30907]

Not normal, but a basically hourly service on an individual route, high speed or not, isn't unusual at the ends of a network, true in othe countried as well. MIlan to Rome is much busier.

 

[Trenitalia]

Nowadays the Torino-Milano high speed line is not fully exploited. The Torino-Milano high speed line is part of the Torino-Venezia high speed line, that is under construction. Three sections of the Torino-Venezia high speed line are working (Torino-Milano, Milano-Treviglio and Padova-Mestre). The section between Treviglio and Verona is under construction, instead projects are in evaluation for the section between Verona and Padova.
Furthermore, when the Torino-Lyon railway will be opened, trains from Milano to Paris will run on the Torino-Milano high speed line.

When the Torino-Venezia high speed line will be completed and the Torino-Lyon railway will be opened, onto Torino-Milano railway more trains will run (trains to/from: Torino-Roma/Napoli, Torino-Venezia/Trieste and Milano-Paris)

Today only the Frecciarossa and Italo trains traveling from Turin to Roma/Napoli run onto the Milano-Torino high speed line, so it is a bit underutilized.

This is one of the reason why it is used for some experiments to increase maximum speed of new Frecciarossa 1000 at 350 km/h.

One of the reasons why this railway was opened before other sections, were the Winter Olympics Games in Torino 2006.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'll be doing Paris-Turin and Turin-Venice in a week's time. Any idea how long these will take when all the high speed lines are finished?

 

[Trenitalia]

Nowadays the trip from Paris to Turin takes 5 hours and 30 minutes (TGV), than trip from Turin to Venice takes 4 hours and 20 minutes (Frecciabianca).

I have no clear idea how long these will take when all high speed lines will be finished, it depend in what way the complete line will be manage. But i think that 3 hours from Torino to Venezia (stops in Milano, Verona and Padova) is a realistic option.

Between Turin and Lyon I heard that they will build a railway for both passenger and freight trains, maximum speed for passenger trains 220 km/h. Maybe from Paris to Turin 3 hours and 30 minutes is a realistic option.

In total, from paris to Venice, 6 hours and 30 minutes. But is only my personal view.

In my opinion the day of the opening of the Turin-Lyon is far. Maybe the complete high speed line from Turin to Venice will be opened in the next 10 years.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I have heard there have been several problems with the Paris-Turin HSL - protests, construction of a very long base tunnel under the western Alps etc. 2023 is a date I have heard people mention, but that seems ambitious.

 

[dangie]

Many thanks Trenitalia for your excellent answer.

 

[Ianigsy]

I travelled Lyon-Chambery-Milan the week before last (the mid-morning Paris-Milan TGV avoids Lyon and leads the Paris-Annecy TGV as far as Chambery). Once in Italy, it slows right down and calls at three or four places before reaching Turin and another three or four before arriving at Milan Porta Garibaldi.

Presumably Trenitalia and Italo are prepared to pay any premium for using the high speed line while SNCF would rather pick up any passing traffic at places like Bardonecchia and Novara.

 

[30907]

I travelled Lyon-Chambery-Milan the week before last (the mid-morning Paris-Milan TGV avoids Lyon and leads the Paris-Annecy TGV as far as Chambery). Once in Italy, it slows right down and calls at three or four places before reaching Turin and another three or four before arriving at Milan Porta Garibaldi.

Presumably Trenitalia and Italo are prepared to pay any premium for using the high speed line while SNCF would rather pick up any passing traffic at places like Bardonecchia and Novara.

Trenitalia will have a better answer, but I have an idea that RFI raised issues about the compatibility of TGVs with signalling on the HSL, and SNCF couldn't justify the investment.

 

[Trenitalia]

There are a lot of protests against HSL Lyon-Turin, especially in Val di Susa, where new high speed line should pass through. The base tunnel under the Alps is 57 km long. The "no TAV" (people against HSL) sustain, mainly, that new railway is too expensive and useless. Also in my opinion 2023 is a too optimistic term. I understood (but I could be wrong) that on the italian side they are working on some explorative tunnels that will be used for the emergency acceses and aeration system.

From Torino to Milano TGVs run on normal line (passing through Vercelli and Novara) because TGVs do not have the signaling system compatible with the system installed onto the high speed line.

 

[Ianigsy]

I was just about to add that I found in a copy of Today's Railways from a couple of years ago that the Turin-Milan HSL is Level 2 ETCS and SNCF couldn't justify the investment for six TGV Reseaus which had already been made non-standard. Presumably there must still be some incentive for them to call at places like Vercelli, though- the intermediate stops between Modane, Turin and Milan must add 20-30 mins to the running time.

Still like the "Parigi-Milano" branding on the nose of the TGVs, though!

 

[Trenitalia]

Yes, Milan-Turin HSL is equipped with ERTMS/ETCS Level 2. I do not know how many people travelling on TGVs use the stops in Novara and Vercelli. I did not try these trains. Using the HSL you can not stop in Novara and Vercelli, the trip takes 45 minutes from Turin to Milan (Torino Porta Susa-Milano Porta Garibaldi). On classical line the journey takes normally 1 hours and 40 minutes with stops in Vercelli and Novara.

Bye

Fabrizio

 

[JB_B]

I have heard there have been several problems with the Paris-Turin HSL - protests, construction of a very long base tunnel under the western Alps etc. 2023 is a date I have heard people mention, but that seems ambitious.

If the OLAF investigation finds significant 'Ndrangheta involvement in the main contracts than I'd guess further delays would be inevitable.

(Or are the allegations just No-TAV mudslinging?)

I suspect the new line (when/if it happens) will be a little less scenic than the current route.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Just arrived in my Venetian B&B at 2am after 22 hours of solid travelling mostly by train, beginning with the 3:10am bus to London from Oxford. The Turin-Venice portion was really pleasant, with the rather tatty looking Frecciabianca being pristine on the inside, with some great views and better-than-average food on offer. An absolute bargain for €19 each.

It was just unlucky we got caught in the Festa del Redentore on arrival, meaning we had to trek halfway across the city by foot to catch a waterbus to Lido! No matter - the fireworks made it a fun end to a very long day of travelling.