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'Turn-back facility' - Horsforth Station

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alexl92

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The wikipedia article for Horsforth Railway Station includes the following sentence:

A turn-back facility was constructed at Horsforth station in 2012, which will permit future timetabling improvements on the line.

What exactly constitutes a 'turn back facility' - is it just the ability & signalling to arrive at a non-terminus station and leave from the same direction you arrived? As far as I can see on Google maps there is one crossover north of the station but nothing to the south, the Leeds side.

Thanks!
 
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When the line was resignalled, sidings were installed on the site of the old signal box to the north of the station. These sidings combined with the crossover to the north of the station are the turn back facility.

It allows trains to terminate at Horsforth and then shunt to the sidings to await the return working.
 

Freightmaster

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The wikipedia article for Horsforth Railway Station includes the following sentence:



What exactly constitutes a 'turn back facility' - is it just the ability & signalling to arrive at a non-terminus station and leave from the same direction you arrived?
That is one definition, which can be achieved with nothing more than a signalled crossover,
but to me, the phrase 'turn back facility' implies a siding or loop where the train can get off
the running lines to avoid delaying following trains.

This can be in the form of a dedicated siding (e.g. Hosforth, Cumbernauld, Kings Norton,
Kidderminster, etc) or an extra platform, such as at Bromsgrove.





MARK
 

Aictos

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That is one definition, which can be achieved with nothing more than a signalled crossover,
but to me, the phrase 'turn back facility' implies a siding or loop where the train can get off
the running lines to avoid delaying following trains.

This can be in the form of a dedicated siding (e.g. Hosforth, Cumbernauld, Kings Norton,
Kidderminster, etc) or an extra platform, such as at Bromsgrove.





MARK
It's also useful for shunting from the platform you arrive on to the platform that the train works it's next service from, case in point Cumbernauld and St Albans eg the Dalmuir to Cumbernauld services will arrive at Cumbernauld in Platform 1 then go into the siding then into Platform 1 to form a service back towards Glasgow or the Sutton to St Albans via Wimbledon service will arrive at St Albans on Platform 2 and shunt across to Platform 1 via the reversing siding as that is the only way you will be able to shunt at those locations.

Or if you use Luton as a example, Thameslink services from Kent to Luton normally terminate and reform their next service on Platform 2 but sometimes this has to be done on Platform 3.
 

John R

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That is one definition, which can be achieved with nothing more than a signalled crossover,
but to me, the phrase 'turn back facility' implies a siding or loop where the train can get off
the running lines to avoid delaying following trains.

This can be in the form of a dedicated siding (e.g. Hosforth, Cumbernauld, Kings Norton,
Kidderminster, etc) or an extra platform, such as at Bromsgrove.

MARK
Not sure I agree. A turn-back facility is exactly that. It can be as simple as modifying the signalling to enable a train to return the way it came (although this would typically need a crossover which may or may not already be present). Additional track is often desirable, as it enables the train reversing to be held out of the way in advance of its return working, but it isn't essential.

As an example, from a very long time ago, originally any train from the Hertford Loop terminating at Stevenage had to then head north, and reverse back across both fast lines to enter Platform 1, from which it could head south onto the Loop again. Clearly that was very inefficient in terms of blocking the fast lines.

So a turn-back facility was introduced at Platform 4, simply by changing the signalling to allow southbound movements over the down slow line as far as Langley Junction. It was nothing more than signalling changes.

Of course, this has recently been superseded in daily use by the dedicated Platform 5, which provides a much more effective turnback facility considering today's traffic volumes. But both are turn-back facilities.
 

Annetts key

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The cheapest method is simply changes to the signal interlocking that controls the area. No extra sidings or points being provided. But this requires that the track layout is already suitable. In some cases an extra signal may be provided as well.

If there is no suitable existing crossover or single lead points, then obviously new points would be needed.

If the requirement is to stable the train clear of the running lines, either because it may be there for a while, or just to allow one or two other services to pass through, then a siding will be required. As well as extra signals.

The vast majority of ‘turn-back facilities’ are the first type, because this type is the cheapest.

‘Turn-back facilities‘ are not new. But the terminology may be. Certainly I had not heard this term prior to the 2000’s.

When signalling schemes and track layouts are being considered and designed, there are discussions on which signal sections should have facilities included in the interlocking for a train to come to a stop, and then change direction. And what, if any, shunting signals, limit of shunt signals or a main aspect signals should be provided.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Is a single-ended (dead ended) refuge siding immediately beyond a station essentially the same thing?
 

John Webb

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.....‘Turn-back facilities‘ are not new. But the terminology may be. Certainly I had not heard this term prior to the 2000’s......
Interesting. When the Midland Mainline was electrified from Bedford southwards, one 'Turn-back' siding was installed north of St Albans City station between the slow lines. This replaced facing and trailing crossovers south of the station and enabled terminating trains to be terminated clear of the running lines rather than in one of the slow line platforms. This siding was installed in 1979 and I've never heard it called anything else than the 'Turn-back' siding, so the terminology seems to have been around for some time.
 

Annetts key

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Is a single-ended (dead ended) refuge siding immediately beyond a station essentially the same thing?
Yes, if there is a valid signalled route/move so that a train can both enter and exit, so that a train can terminate and then return to where it came from.

Interesting. When the Midland Mainline was electrified from Bedford southwards, one 'Turn-back' siding was installed north of St Albans City station between the slow lines. This replaced facing and trailing crossovers south of the station and enabled terminating trains to be terminated clear of the running lines rather than in one of the slow line platforms. This siding was installed in 1979 and I've never heard it called anything else than the 'Turn-back' siding, so the terminology seems to have been around for some time.
It looks like the term was in use in some parts of the country but not as widespread in other parts then.
 

Bayum

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Do any trains even use the turn back? I can’t imagine there’s many that travel from Leeds to Horsforth return.
 

30907

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Do any trains even use the turn back? I can’t imagine there’s many that travel from Leeds to Horsforth return.
Pre-Covid (and now) it's down to one morning and evening but it has been more and I seem to recall the plan was at one time for 2tph off peak to terminate there (at West Yorkshire Metro's behest).
 

Bayum

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Pre-Covid (and now) it's down to one morning and evening but it has been more and I seem to recall the plan was at one time for 2tph off peak to terminate there (at West Yorkshire Metro's behest).
Ive looked on RTT and I think I can see three - two in the AM and one PM. I know Horsforth - Leeds is one of the busiest sections but can’t imagine it is that busy all day.
 

Bigman

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I did get a Saturday only train a year or so ago that terminated at Horsforth. The track was then set with a positioning signal into the siding ready for it to go back into Leeds.
 

philjo

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When I went to the Ashes test at Headingley in 2019 there were additional shuttle services running between Leeds and Horsforth at the peak arrival and departure times for Headingley and Burley Park.
 

_toommm_

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Ive looked on RTT and I think I can see three - two in the AM and one PM. I know Horsforth - Leeds is one of the busiest sections but can’t imagine it is that busy all day.

I swear there were some 1Zxx to Horsforth in the past week.
 

ainsworth74

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Do any trains even use the turn back? I can’t imagine there’s many that travel from Leeds to Horsforth return.
When I went to the Ashes test at Headingley in 2019 there were additional shuttle services running between Leeds and Horsforth at the peak arrival and departure times for Headingley and Burley Park.

As @philjo notes when there's international cricket on at Headingley they use it to spin the additional shuttle service that usually runs alongside the existing Harrogate Loop services (and very handy it is too!).
 

Roast Veg

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Interestingly while the siding appears on openrailwaymap, the crossover does not. Would anyone with a precise idea of its location care to add it?
 

Crossover

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The crossover can also be used (I can't recall if off a "shunt" signal) to terminate a train from Harrogate in the Leeds bound platform and turn around back to Harrogate. Was used as such a few times during the Leeds p0 works

Ive looked on RTT and I think I can see three - two in the AM and one PM. I know Horsforth - Leeds is one of the busiest sections but can’t imagine it is that busy all day.
Pre-Covid I believe it was used in both weekday peaks. Aside from the hourly Knaresborough and hourly York, there were possibly two Horsforths as well. I believe stations to Horsforth from Leeds therefore had four trains an hour for bits of the day!

Interestingly while the siding appears on openrailwaymap, the crossover does not. Would anyone with a precise idea of its location care to add it?
Can be seen here - https://goo.gl/maps/ZPKcdDwefbVzFbs28
 

YorksLad12

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Ive looked on RTT and I think I can see three - two in the AM and one PM. I know Horsforth - Leeds is one of the busiest sections but can’t imagine it is that busy all day.
I think the original idea of Leeds-Horsforth shuttles all day was superceded by the limited Leeds-Horsforth-Harrogate services. It's fairly busy outside of the peaks as it runs through Burley Park (studentland), Headingley (studentland, but nearer Kirkstall), Horsforth (Leeds Trinity) and Hornbeam Park (Harrogate College).
 

JBuchananGB

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More generally about turnback sidings, there is one in the Gidea Park carriage sidings to handle such trains as terminate there from London. Fairly recently one sprang up east of Chadwell Heath which got a lot of use during the disruptions extending platforms between there and Shenfield for Crossrail. There is one at Sandhills originally implemented, I believe, when Liverpool Exchange station closed because the non-electric services from places like Preston and Wigan had nowhere to go and had to terminate there. Currently coming in handy for delivering of class 777 trains which have to come from the Bootle direction, reverse at Sandhills to get to Kirkdale depot.
There was a turnback siding at Hall Road (Crosby) in 1905 where on 27 July that year due to a signalling error an express service from Liverpool was routed into the siding, colliding with a train which had terminated at Hall Road and was waiting to return to Liverpool. 20 fatalities. Fortunately my great grandfather, who was on the express train, was not one of them, just badly shaken.
 

JRT

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Do any trains even use the turn back? I can’t imagine there’s many that travel from Leeds to Horsforth return.

Do any trains even use the turn back? I can’t imagine there’s many that travel from Leeds to Horsforth return.
The idea was to give some flexibility in timetable planning, to give extra capacity on the Leeds–Horsforth part (in the WYPTE area).
Some peak extras, and a Sunday service used this turn-back.
There may have been plans for off-peak extras but never got anywhere.
There was also a demand for a faster Harrogate train.
Later some peak extras continued to York and the Sunday extras got extended to Knaresborough.

Another turn-back facility exists at Guiseley, built many years ago in pre-electric days, when off-peak trips from Bradford were cut back to Guiseley. Of course trains were re-instated and the facility is no longer in regular use, but can be used in case of disruption.
 
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Kite159

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I swear there were some 1Zxx to Horsforth in the past week.

There was some extras on Sunday, public timetable to run non-stop to Horsforth (working timetable seems to be calls at the other 2 stations) before returning to Leeds as ECS:
ie:

A couple years ago it got used on Sundays with extra Leeds - Horsforth shuttles (funded by West Yorkshire PTE?) to run alongside the hourly Leeds - Harrogate - York.
 

Bigman

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The idea was to give some flexibility in timetable planning, to give extra capacity on the Leeds–Horsforth part (in the WYPTE area).
Some peak extras, and a Sunday service used this turn-back.
There may have been plans for off-peak extras but never got anywhere.
There was also a demand for a faster Harrogate train.
Later some peak extras continued to York and the Sunday extras got extended to Knaresborough.

Another turn-back facility exists at Guiseley, built many years ago in pre-electric days, when off-peak trips from Bradford were cut back to Guiseley. Of course trains were re-instated and the facility is no longer in regular use, but can be used in case of disruption.
Presumably you mean the crossover from the Down Ilkley to the Up Ilkley at Esholt Jcn that allows for terminating in Platform 2 at Guiseley?
 

Neptune

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I swear there were some 1Zxx to Horsforth in the past week.
Yes there were 5 workings last Sunday for the T20 cricket early afternoon. 1Z90 to 1Z94inc LDS - HRS then back to Leeds as 5Z90 to 5Z94inc utilising the turnback siding.
 
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