Turning a Two-Together trip into a One-going-Solo trip

[Mr Magstripe]

I've bought Advance tickets for a trip for myself + friend with a Two-Together Railcard discount.

It's possible I won't be able to make it, but they'd want to go anyway. How would I go about turning their Two-Together discounted tickets into non-discounted tickets?

Also, along with the £10 fee for amendments, would it just involve paying the extra cost to bring it up to the undiscounted full price of the Advance fares I originally bought (i.e. in that fare bucket, which were quite cheap), or would it involve having to take whatever Advance fares are now still available (i.e. in a higher, more expensive fare bucket)?

For what it's worth I bought the tickets from the Virgin Trains (west coast) website. I haven't yet collected them from a machine, if that makes life any easier.

Thanks for any help.

 

[najaB]

It's possible I won't be able to make it, but they'd want to go anyway. How would I go about turning their Two-Together discounted tickets into non-discounted tickets?

Good luck with that one. Advance tickets have no refund value and previous threads have yet to reach a conclusion of how to change Two Together tickets into One Alone tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... How would I go about turning their Two-Together discounted tickets into non-discounted tickets?....

I know East Coast, and a selection of random staff members from other TOCs, have done this sort of amendment, but as a general rule there is no instruction to do it, a new ticket should be purchased.

Suggestion on this forum previously is to approach the guard of the train, with both sets of tickets (and the railcard if possible), and explain that the other person is not travelling, which is often noted to meet with a positive outcome, but carries no guarantees.

....Also, along with the £10 fee for amendments, would it just involve paying the extra cost to bring it up to the undiscounted full price of the Advance fares I originally bought (i.e. in that fare bucket, which were quite cheap), or would it involve having to take whatever Advance fares are now still available (i.e. in a higher, more expensive fare bucket)?...

From what I gather, if you can find a clerk who will do it, it is usually to the same ticket type as already held, but some clerks might have other ideas.

....For what it's worth I bought the tickets from the Virgin Trains (west coast) website. I haven't yet collected them from a machine, if that makes life any easier....

Have you contacted Virgin West Coast (websales or customer services) to ask if they can amend the booking for you?

 

[Mr Magstripe]

This is a very tardy thanks to najaB and particularly hairyhandedfool for their replies!

In the end I got better enough to make this trip along with my travelling companion, so there was no need to try and see if there was a way around this problem.

Suggestion on this forum previously is to approach the guard of the train, with both sets of tickets (and the railcard if possible), and explain that the other person is not travelling, which is often noted to meet with a positive outcome, but carries no guarantees.

That's what I would have suggested to the other person, but as above there was no need in the end.

Anyway it's useful, if a bit annoying, to know that the train companies haven't implemented a (proper) method to resolving such an issue with the Two-Together Railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I don't see why they shouldn't change the rules so one person can travel alone holding both sets of tickets and the Railcard. The railway would lose no money, unlike with other Railcards.

I suspect they just didn't think of it.

 

[AM9]

TBH I don't see why they shouldn't change the rules so one person can travel alone holding both sets of tickets and the Railcard. The railway would lose no money, unlike with other Railcards.

I suspect they just didn't think of it.

Yes they would lose money. The Two together is a promotion designed to encourage leisure travel and the presumption is that pairs or groups of travellers do that whereas many single travellers are less likely to. If it wasn't so, there would already be a 26-60 Railcard for individual travellers. There has been perpetual speculation that such a railcard is coming soon, but even if it did, there's no gaurantee that it will offer the same discounts or as few restrictions as YP, 2T or Senior cards do.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes they would lose money. The Two together is a promotion designed to encourage leisure travel and the presumption is that pairs or groups of travellers do that whereas many single travellers are less likely to. If it wasn't so, there would already be a 26-60 Railcard for individual travellers. There has been perpetual speculation that such a railcard is coming soon, but even if it did, there's no gaurantee that it will offer the same discounts or as few restrictions as YP, 2T or Senior cards do.

So, two people buy tickets discounted by 1/3. One can't travel so the other carries both tickets and the railcard. Two times 2/3 = 4/3 so the railway has received 1/3 again for the journey. How is the railway losing money?

 

[najaB]

How is the railway losing money?

They do lose out overall - they've sold two tickets for £66 each rather than two tickets at £100.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do lose out overall - they've sold two tickets for £66 each rather than two tickets at £100.

Not if only one person travels while holding both tickets. In that case, they have taken *more* money than if a regular one person ticket was purchased.

There is no moral justification at all for not allowing one person to travel with *both* tickets *and* the Railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes they would lose money. The Two together is a promotion designed to encourage leisure travel and the presumption is that pairs or groups of travellers do that whereas many single travellers are less likely to. If it wasn't so, there would already be a 26-60 Railcard for individual travellers. There has been perpetual speculation that such a railcard is coming soon, but even if it did, there's no gaurantee that it will offer the same discounts or as few restrictions as YP, 2T or Senior cards do.

You missed the "holding both tickets" bit I fear.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Depends what tickets were bought I guess. If the tickets were non-refundable Advance tickets then 2x£100 is greater than 2x£66, but if they were refundable Anytime tickets then £100+£10 (one ticket plus refund admin fee) is less than 2x£66. Swings and roundabouts really.

 

[AM9]

You missed the "holding both tickets" bit I fear.

No not at all. The deal is for two passengers to travel under the terms of the Railcard. Anyone looking to get lower cost travel for two people using the card is aware of that. As spelt out in the rules it is necessary for the two passengers whose images appear on the photocard to travel together when using any tickets with 'Two Together'* printed on them. Even the Railcard itself has: "Both cardholders must travel together".
So, if the holder(s) cannot comply with the conditions, the tickets can be surrendered for a refund, (less any admin. charges), and the sole traveller starts again as a passenger with no railcard (unless they do have another valid railcard type with them).
I think that you have missed my point about the intention of the railcard. ATOC uses railcards to target specific passenger groups, e.g. young people, senior citizens, disabled, pairs and groups. These groups and the benefits offered are to promote specific types of travel, - clearly not commuters or business travellers, so by insisting that Two Together users both travel, they largely discourage those types of passengers from whom undiscounted fares can be expected.
* or whatever the abbreviation on the ticket is

 

[extendedpaul]

My OH and I had a Two Together Railcard for a year. We didn't renew it as four advance tickets costing £60 altogether were wasted when she was unwell. It was probably too late to try to amend two of the tickets, and would have cost far more than I paid to travel on my own by Megabus instead. I definitely wasn't prepared to risk travelling alone in either direction with both tickets and the railcard.

To introduce a concession allowing one of the two ticket holders to travel with both tickets and the railcard could be a good marketing strategy to revive interest in the Two Together Railcard. We would 100% always have one if that were permitted. I can't see there would be much revenue lost from business travellers or commuters as the railcard is not valid weekdays before 9.30

 

[MikeWh]

No not at all. The deal is for two passengers to travel under the terms of the Railcard. Anyone looking to get lower cost travel for two people using the card is aware of that. As spelt out in the rules it is necessary for the two passengers whose images appear on the photocard to travel together when using any tickets with 'Two Together'* printed on them. Even the Railcard itself has: "Both cardholders must travel together".
So, if the holder(s) cannot comply with the conditions, the tickets can be surrendered for a refund, (less any admin. charges), and the sole traveller starts again as a passenger with no railcard (unless they do have another valid railcard type with them).
I think that you have missed my point about the intention of the railcard. ATOC uses railcards to target specific passenger groups, e.g. young people, senior citizens, disabled, pairs and groups. These groups and the benefits offered are to promote specific types of travel, - clearly not commuters or business travellers, so by insisting that Two Together users both travel, they largely discourage those types of passengers from whom undiscounted fares can be expected.
* or whatever the abbreviation on the ticket is

I haven't missed the point about the intention of the railcard at all. Yes, the conditions state that both travellers must travel together so that it is clear that the individual tickets cannot be used separately.

The railway seems obsessed with applying rules just for the sake of making things difficult. First we had the ridiculous concept that you couldn't start or stop short on an Advance ticket. Eventually, after serious bad publicity, guidance has been issued to the effect that passengers should not be penalised unless the action is for deliberate gain. I.e. it is ok if a similarly priced ticket would have been available for the actual journey, but not if the price of the actual journey would have been significantly more. Forcing petty restrictions on passengers with no loss to the railways defies logic, and quite possibly loses the railway custom when the passenger decides to drive.

Likewise, forcing one traveller to pay again when they are clearly one of the passengers pictured on the railcard and they have both tickets is perverse. The second ticket isn't being abused so what is the problem?

My youngest is not far off being too old for our family and friends railcard so I will soon be weighing up whether to buy a two together railcard with my wife. If this ridiculous logic still appears to prevail at that time then I won't bother, and the railway will definitely be losing out on revenue.

 

[najaB]

Not if only one person travels while holding both tickets. In that case, they have taken *more* money than if a regular one person ticket was purchased.

In the case of Advance tickets (as above) they will have lost out as they can't sell the unused seat again.

 

[MikeWh]

In the case of Advance tickets (as above) they will have lost out as they can't sell the unused seat again.

But if any traveller using an advance ticket decides not to travel the TOC can't sell the unused seat again. Perversely there is no compulsion to actually use the ticket. At least with one person travelling the seat can be made available to anyone paying full whack for a walk up ticket.

 

[najaB]

But if any traveller using an advance ticket decides not to travel the TOC can't sell the unused seat again. Perversely there is no compulsion to actually use the ticket. At least with one person travelling the seat can be made available to anyone paying full whack for a walk up ticket.

Oh, I agree there. I was just explaining how the TOC still suffers a potential out when a Two Together ticket goes unused.

I agree with Neil... ..er.. Bletchleyite that they should be allowed to travel at no additional cost if they have both tickets and the railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, if the holder(s) cannot comply with the conditions, the tickets can be surrendered for a refund, (less any admin. charges), and the sole traveller starts again as a passenger with no railcard (unless they do have another valid railcard type with them).

Which is all very well unless it's Advances.

I think that you have missed my point about the intention of the railcard. ATOC uses railcards to target specific passenger groups, e.g. young people, senior citizens, disabled, pairs and groups. These groups and the benefits offered are to promote specific types of travel, - clearly not commuters or business travellers, so by insisting that Two Together users both travel, they largely discourage those types of passengers from whom undiscounted fares can be expected.
* or whatever the abbreviation on the ticket is

But, as I've made clear repeatedly, someone buying two Two Together tickets pays 133.3333...% of the fare they would pay if they just bought one ticket. So there is no incentive whatsoever to do this deliberately. And being picky over people who are ill etc is a bit too Ryanair for my liking.

 

[robbeech]

A few weeks ago I wanted to meet my other half off the plane at Manchester. I planned to buy a pair of Worksop to Manchester Airport returns with our 2 together card discount and checked with TPE whether it would be acceptable for me to travel with both tickets and the card on the outward and explained I was meeting her from a flight.
I was told this was absolutely unacceptable and I would need 1 full price return and 1 single. So I drove over there which takes an hour less, cost me an egg cup full of diesel, cost me about £4 in parking and I got there at a more sensible time and we left as soon as we wanted to. I try to use the railway where I can but as Mike says, sometimes they seem to go out of their way to make things difficult.

 

[yorksrob]

A few weeks ago I wanted to meet my other half off the plane at Manchester. I planned to buy a pair of Worksop to Manchester Airport returns with our 2 together card discount and checked with TPE whether it would be acceptable for me to travel with both tickets and the card on the outward and explained I was meeting her from a flight.
I was told this was absolutely unacceptable and I would need 1 full price return and 1 single. So I drove over there which takes an hour less, cost me an egg cup full of diesel, cost me about £4 in parking and I got there at a more sensible time and we left as soon as we wanted to. I try to use the railway where I can but as Mike says, sometimes they seem to go out of their way to make things difficult.

If that is true (and not just TPE being over-desperate as usual) it just goes to show what an unsatisfactory product it is.

 

[Clip]

If that is true (and not just TPE being over-desperate as usual) it just goes to show what an unsatisfactory product it is.

Its a fine product and does exactly what it sets out to do so I fail to see how it is unsatisfactory.

Or are we saying that we shouldnt follow railcard rules now on this forum?

 

[najaB]

If that is true (and not just TPE being over-desperate as usual)...

Taking the T&Cs as written, yes it is correct.

 

[All Line Rover]

No not at all. The deal is for two passengers to travel under the terms of the Railcard. Anyone looking to get lower cost travel for two people using the card is aware of that. As spelt out in the rules it is necessary for the two passengers whose images appear on the photocard to travel together when using any tickets with 'Two Together'* printed on them. Even the Railcard itself has: "Both cardholders must travel together".
So, if the holder(s) cannot comply with the conditions, the tickets can be surrendered for a refund, (less any admin. charges), and the sole traveller starts again as a passenger with no railcard (unless they do have another valid railcard type with them).
I think that you have missed my point about the intention of the railcard. ATOC uses railcards to target specific passenger groups, e.g. young people, senior citizens, disabled, pairs and groups. These groups and the benefits offered are to promote specific types of travel, - clearly not commuters or business travellers, so by insisting that Two Together users both travel, they largely discourage those types of passengers from whom undiscounted fares can be expected.
* or whatever the abbreviation on the ticket is

This is one of the biggest load of ******** I have read in this part of the forum. The stubbornness of a 1960s civil servant combined with the ignorance of a Brexit battlebus supporter.

 

[island]

Which is all very well unless it's Advances.



But, as I've made clear repeatedly, someone buying two Two Together tickets pays 133.3333...% of the fare they would pay if they just bought one ticket. So there is no incentive whatsoever to do this deliberately. And being picky over people who are ill etc is a bit too Ryanair for my liking.

132%, if we're being technical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that is true (and not just TPE being over-desperate as usual) it just goes to show what an unsatisfactory product it is.

No, it's correct, and it's silly.

TBH, the product is a workaround to what is really needed - a National Railcard basically offering what the Network Railcard does but nationally. At a higher price, of course, but I'd still buy one up to about £100, and it would seriously increase my rail travel - the railway would certainly find it profitable to sell one to me.

 

[yorksrob]

No, it's correct, and it's silly.

TBH, the product is a workaround to what is really needed - a National Railcard basically offering what the Network Railcard does but nationally. At a higher price, of course, but I'd still buy one up to about £100, and it would seriously increase my rail travel - the railway would certainly find it profitable to sell one to me.

I agree 100%.

But even with the two together, it is unnecessary onerous to expect both participants to be present for the whole journey.

 

[najaB]

But even with the two together, it is unnecessary onerous to expect both participants to be present for the whole journey.

Not really, the target market is pairs of people making a journey together (clue's in the name).

 

[All Line Rover]

The target market is people purchasing pairs of tickets who would otherwise travel by car. Whether two, one or zero persons end up travelling - whether because of illness or otherwise - is neither here nor there.

 

[najaB]

The target market is people purchasing pairs of tickets who would otherwise travel by car. Whether two, one or zero persons end up travelling - whether because of illness or otherwise - is neither here nor there.

Yes, but if there was no requirement for the passengers to be travelling together then I could get a 1/3 off a Dundee to London walkup fare by finding someone who is travelling from Doncaster to London on the same train. They'd pay £10 more than their Off-Peak return fare but that's more than made up for by my £85 savings.

 

[yorksrob]

Not really, the target market is pairs of people Bmaking a journey together (clue's in the name).

But these are two people attempting to make a journey together.

There wouldn't be any advantage to someone using a two together railcard to make a wholly solitary journey because even with the card, two journeys would still cost the individual more than a wholly single ticket, so it's not as though punters can make a gain using it on their own. This is a wholly unnecessary and mealy mouthed restriction.