No, but as noted above without the 'must travel together' restriction, I can save £45 on a walkup Dundee-London return ticket (even including the cost of the railcard and refunding the £10 extra that my partner would pay) if I can find someone making a Doncaster-London return journey on the same trains that I am.
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Turning a Two-Together trip into a One-going-Solo trip
- Thread starter Mr Magstripe
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That is mathematically impossible.
If you have a return fare of £60, a third off would give you £40. Therefore for a single traveller to gain the discount, he would have to spend £80 for two tickets, rather than £60, which would be totally pointless unless the other person was travelling at least part of the way (bearing in mind there is only one railcard, so the other ticket would be useless without it).
Okay, let me show my working...
Dundee - London Terminals Off Peak return: £245
With Two-Together discount: £161
So the savings for me: £84.
Doncaster - London Terminals Off Peak Return: £150
Savings for my partner using the other half of the Dundee-London 2TR ticket: £-11
Cost of railcard: £30
Overall savings: £84 - 30 - 11 = c. £43.
It still makes sense to me, could you let me know where I've gone wrong? (And yes, I know I've rounded the numbers).
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Yes, but your other half would still have to travel with you for the Doncaster to London portion, otherwise the other £161 is wasted. You're still encouraging two people to travel together, rather than drive down in a shared car, so you are still fulfilling the ethos of the railcard.
Yes, that person would pay more if they had to buy a separate ticket (and the two decided not to drive), but so would they if you didn't have the railcard and forced them to buy a separate ticket all the way from Dundee. The railcard is performing the same function in both cases. In both cases, the couple potentially have the option of sharing a car, and in both cases the discount provides an incentive for them to take a train rather than share a car.
This whole condition smacks of getting people to cough up for a railcard whilst making it as difficult as possible for them to use it.
A more sensible alternative condition would be that both tickets must be presented at the same time as the card when required for inspection.
If we're both making journeys that we would have made anyway then it's a loss to the railway.
That could be the case with any journey using any railcard.
The point here is that you might instead drive from Dundee and pick up your partner at Doncaster, so this is still potential lost revenue that the two together railcard should be securing.
U-Bahnfreund
Member
I am wondering why a Railcard for one person aged 26-69 would be so bad. German Railways, for example, are perfectly fine with their Bahncard 25 and Bahncard 50, which are sold to anyone who wants one.
All Line Rover
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You are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. I think you are misunderstanding our position. Where only one person travels, they would still need both tickets and the railcard in their possession. Both tickets (of whatever type) would expire once the journey has been undertaken - the one is only valid when accompanied by the other.
All Line Rover
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In the example najaB gives the obvious combination of tickets appears to me to be one undiscounted Dundee to Doncaster SVR + two discounted Doncaster to London SVRs. Which, as it happens, comes to £320.
Yes, we've all been wondering that one for many years. Unfortunately the forces of enterprise and the glorious free market seem reluctant to develop such a product.
No, I understand your position and I've agreed that where one person is unable to travel the other should be allowed to travel with no additional charge provided they are in possession of both of the tickets and the the railcard.
The purpose of my post above was to explain why the 'must make the entire journey together' provision exists in the first place. Without it, it is entirely feasible to regularly save money by finding someone (even a random stranger) whose journey happens to overlap with yours. This isn't, I believe, the intended purpose of the railcard. AIUI, the idea is to encourage discretionary travel.
So actually revenue neutral overall, maybe not the best example.
I'm pretty sure though that there are examples where it is possible to make a savings. Probably something involving VT and Preston...But isn't that point negated by having a named person who has to be the other traveller ? Otherwise it's likely to be a spouse for example who you could potentially drive with anyway.
Nope. If it's the case that we're both starting at the same station (e.g. reverse the journey above) then we could walk into the ticket office and buy railcard and tickets in one transaction.
I'm pretty sure I've seen it being done once.
On a related topic, earlier this year I was on a train with a grandfather and a grandson and the ticket inspector came down checking tickets. The grandfather showed he was holding three GroupSave tickets but explained that his wife was ill and couldn't make the trip. The inspector said this wasn't valid and the gentleman should have amended the tickets before boarding. The guy said the ticket office was closed and didn't see why it was a problem as he also held the ticket for the person who was absent. The ticket inspector (I think) excessed two of the tickets but denied the request of the passengers to use their respective railcards (1 senior and 1 young persons) on the tickets - Which would have led to a zero fare excess. The passengers were quite angry at this point and the inspector said if they weren't happy with that then it's 'that or a penalty fare'. By this time other people in the carriage had become involved and the inspector retreated to the back cab.
Do GroupSave tickets follow the same policy as the Two-Together? They were flexible tickets (not advances).
Do GroupSave tickets follow the same policy as the Two-Together? They were flexible tickets (not advances).
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Ah yes, well that would be solved by having to present both tickets with the railcard when requested.
If person A and B regularly travel from Ashford to Ramsgate, but one of them regularly continues on to Margate, but they always get the same train for the Ashford - Ramsgate section, and it's more cost effective to have the two together discount on to Margate, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to make use of that. Infact, I think they are unfairly disadvantaged in that they can't.
Hang on ... What happens when person A encounters a barrier at Ramsgate?
I don't agree that this is a suitable scenario that should be allowed. The railcard allows two people to travel together making the same journey. In this scenario person B should have a separate ticket for Ramsgate to Margate. Person A should be able to take both tickets and the railcard to show at any barrier before leaving the station.
Maybe the example of saving money should not be allowed, in which case this means my Worksop to Manchester Airport example should not be allowed, 2 discounted returns is cheaper that one full price return and one full price single so I would see a price advantage to doing that, maybe that shouldn't be allowed now I think about it, but the railway lost out altogether on that one as I went in the car instead.
Certainly if one person does the whole journey on their own because their companion is ill or cannot make it for other reasons then I think producing both tickets and the card should be ok. The tricky part the I guess is proof. Had I undertaken that journey and been allowed to travel the outward portion on my own then the return with my partner then it would be difficult for the guard on the return leg to tell this.
Certainly if one person does the whole journey on their own because their companion is ill or cannot make it for other reasons then I think producing both tickets and the card should be ok. The tricky part the I guess is proof. Had I undertaken that journey and been allowed to travel the outward portion on my own then the return with my partner then it would be difficult for the guard on the return leg to tell this.
All Line Rover
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But there is nothing stopping two persons who happen to be making the same journey throughout - e.g London to Manchester during the evening peak - purchasing discounted tickets and a railcard in the same transaction (after having visited a photo booth). For Euston to Manchester (FOS £242), this would be worthwhile - a saving of £161 more than outweighs £30 for the railcard and £10 for photos. This is a revenue "leak" inherent in the railcard, which the "no travel before 09:30" restriction largely addresses.
Is there (Officially) a restriction on how many two together cards you can have. I have one with my better half and have considered getting one with a friend of mine, we dont travel much but the few journeys we do would pay for it. Could i officially have another one or would he have to get it and have me as the second person? I notice that when got mine they needed a fair few details from me but only a Name for the second person.
He doesn't have one with his other half as they both have Young persons Railcards.
He doesn't have one with his other half as they both have Young persons Railcards.
All Line Rover
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You can have as many as you like.
The details they require regarding the primary cardholder are primarily used for marketing purposes.
The details they require regarding the primary cardholder are primarily used for marketing purposes.
There doesn't seem to be any good reason to change the rules. Everybody who has the two together railcard understands the conditions of use, so they can expect to be treated as travelling without authority should they wilfully breach those rules. The only justifiable exception I can see would be where one of the persons covered by the card is taken ill during the journey, when the other person may reasonably ask for the ticket to be authorised for use outside of the agreed conditions.
Any other deviation should be dealt with by a refund and a rebooking at the earliest opportunity if a penalty is to be avoided. Trying to find loopholes (that don't exist) can only put the perpetrator at risk of a penalty or worse, although it might make for interesting discussion on a thread such as this.
The conditions of use are quite clear, so if one doesn't like them, the railcard clearly isn't suited to their travel needs.
Any other deviation should be dealt with by a refund and a rebooking at the earliest opportunity if a penalty is to be avoided. Trying to find loopholes (that don't exist) can only put the perpetrator at risk of a penalty or worse, although it might make for interesting discussion on a thread such as this.
The conditions of use are quite clear, so if one doesn't like them, the railcard clearly isn't suited to their travel needs.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You can't "refund and rebook" Advances.
Which is why I would support letting one person travel if they have both tickets and the railcard.
Bletchleyite
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LuSiVe
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Could the second ticket not just be marked 'passenger not travelling' making it useless for anyone else joining the train later on?
Yes, I suppose that is an option. And the barrier issue is one that I hadn't considered. I think not being "allowed" is a bit strong. If one person had to break their journey at short notice it seems harsh that the person continuing would have their ticket effectively invalidated.
Alternatively, bring on the Bahncard.
I don't see why not.
What do the rules on all this say when there is Disruption. if I had 2 tickets and a railcard for this journey and the 2nd named person was due to meet me at the starting station on a separate valid ticket but due to disruption they couldn't make it but could get (within their separate ticket validity) to a station on the route. Would it be acceptable for me to start the journey and then to board at an intermediate station or would I be forced to delay my journey to travel together and if so how would delay repay work as I have only been delayed by someone else's journey and not my own but it is the railway that has delayed me.
paul1609
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Its because there are parts of the network that are at full capacity. These parts still require a pretty hefty subsidy. If you reduce the price on them you increase demand. You can only increase capacity by increasing the subsidy. It makes no sense to reduce prices on those sections. The sections that have spare capacity already by and large have local railcards.
I find it hard to believe that countries such as Germany don't have areas with different capacity constraints, yet they've had this in place for years. All part of the postcode lottery of a rail network we're all used to.
The real point is that when there was more capacity throughout the network ten to twenty years ago, our politicians and civil servants preferred to sit on their arses playing at markets.
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