TV Alert:-The trouble with our trains (29/04)

[RichardN]

I loved the bit where there is a committee sitting to apportion blame for delays and, for birds, this varies by size! A train strike involving peacocks was deemed to be Network Rail's fault. Where do you, er, draw the line then - Swans? Geese? Buzzards? Lapwings? By wing span or beak-to-tail length? Only in Britain.

The problem with delay attribution is that the whole process just circulates money round and costs a lot in administration. It would be better not to bother, but then you don't want to remove any incentive not to cause delays from network rail and the TOCs. I think having a simplified penalty regime with fixed payouts so it ends up costing both NR and the TOCs money when their services are delayed whatever the cause would be simpler and cheaper, if less "fair".

 

[crehld]

The problem is that the programme wasn't aimed at enthusiasts or insiders. It was completely for the layperson.

I only caught the last half, but on that front I feel it did a good job. It lifted the lid on many aspects of the complex system which the average punter probably wasn't aware of (rolling stock companies, etc).

The fact Network Rail were happy to be interviewed and answer questions and the DfT declined and issued their usual statement spoke volumes!

 

[Dave1987]

The best bit was the piece that highlighted Northern Ireland Railways and the fact that it is entirely possible to run a satisfactory rail service in public hands. We only continue with the current failed model because of political ideology and ineptitude.

Like they also mentioned, Northern Ireland rail network is tiny in comparison to the UK. As they quite rightly pointed out renationalisation will not cure the congestion issues on the UK network. NR are the big problem and the are nationalised to all intents and purposes.

 

[ac6000cw]

I thought it was pretty even-handed overall, and pitched at about the right level for the average (non-enthusiast) viewer.

In an hour you could only skim over the surface anyway, and they made some good points about the profit levels of the TOCs and ROSCOs, plus the 'elephant in the room' of NR, it's debts and project management problems. Suggesting that SWT+NR style alliances might be a good way forward was also good.

And yes, comparing the tiny Northern Ireland network to the UK one was silly - I was expecting them to do a comparison with another European country of comparable population density and size...

 

[me123]

Well, I'm watching in catch up. 8 minutes in, and a woman on the infamous "train that never arrives on time" asks why she should alter her life because of the "ineptitude" of the rail company. Perhaps because you have a professional duty to be at work on time? Perhaps because if you were using your car, you'd leave earlier if you were late because of congestion? And I'd love to meet the person who could accurately predict their arrival into central London in the rush hour to the minute.

Of course, I don't think that that train has a glowing punctuality record, and it does need improved. But when you can say with probably 100% accuracy that the train is not going to arrive on time, and that you're likely to be late into your work, perhaps you need to reconsider how you get to work rather than blaming the railways? Take a bit of responsibility for your own life.

I think I'm going to throw something at the screen if it doesn't pick up soon :\

 

[Darandio]

Was quite interesting to see the discussion about the 07:29 from Brighton and that is is apparently never on time.

It lived up to the reputation this morning, only 6 down at Streatham then eventually arriving at Victoria 58 minutes late!

 

[Tracky]

On the one hand delay attribution is a farce, however, if it were not there, would it have the potential to allow operators and network rail to take their eye off the ball in preventing delays? Might they also, due to less reporting, have less evidence of delay reasons to work on improving the situation and avoiding delays?

As for comparisons, I don't think there is a rail network in the world which compares to the British network. A complex system of tightly packed mainlines carrying local, commuter, high speed and freight traffic with track layouts altered and rationalised and in places eased.

 

[Tetchytyke]

a woman on the infamous "train that never arrives on time" asks why she should alter her life because of the "ineptitude" of the rail company. Perhaps because you have a professional duty to be at work on time? Perhaps because if you were using your car, you'd leave earlier if you were late because of congestion? And I'd love to meet the person who could accurately predict their arrival into central London in the rush hour to the minute.

I bet I could if I were using a limited-access road which had a limited number of spaces on it and a specified speed to be travelling at.

If the train company say a train will arrive at x time, it should arrive at x time, unless something out of the ordinary happens. Sadly this isn't something GoVia have got the hang of. I genuinely cannot remember the last time my London Midland train to work arrived in Euston on time, it is always 3-5 minutes late. That's not a disaster really- I can queue longer than that in Caffe Nero- but it IS incompetent. And at these prices competence shouldn't be an optional extra.

 

[ac6000cw]

As for comparisons, I don't think there is a rail network in the world which compares to the British network. A complex system of tightly packed mainlines carrying local, commuter, high speed and freight traffic with track layouts altered and rationalised and in places eased.

Germany, Switzerland or Japan might have made an interesting comparison - you'll never get an exact comparator anyway for all sorts of reasons.

 

[LAX54]

I bet I could if I were using a limited-access road which had a limited number of spaces on it and a specified speed to be travelling at.

If the train company say a train will arrive at x time, it should arrive at x time, unless something out of the ordinary happens. Sadly this isn't something GoVia have got the hang of. I genuinely cannot remember the last time my London Midland train to work arrived in Euston on time, it is always 3-5 minutes late. That's not a disaster really- I can queue longer than that in Caffe Nero- but it IS incompetent. And at these prices competence shouldn't be an optional extra.

TOO MANY trains it is as simple as that, one train late that may have nothing to do with your train, but will knock on for hours ! As for the person who moaned about the 0729, says she would have to get up and hour and half earlier?? what about the 0656 0706 0714 0715 0729 0732 0744......
or maybe a job that is not 50+ miles away ! (or live closer !)

 

[me123]

If the train company say a train will arrive at x time, it should arrive at x time, unless something out of the ordinary happens. Sadly this isn't something GoVia have got the hang of. I genuinely cannot remember the last time my London Midland train to work arrived in Euston on time, it is always 3-5 minutes late. That's not a disaster really- I can queue longer than that in Caffe Nero- but it IS incompetent. And at these prices competence shouldn't be an optional extra.

I completely agree that the train should arrive on time, and I'm not going to defend the atrocious punctuality record.

But, as grown adults and as professionals, we have a responsibility to arrive at work on time.

If I was in my car driving down the motorway, I might know that I ought to be able to do my journey in x minutes. However, due to congestion, I am frequently not able to achieve this time, and I am often late for work. As a result, I must adapt my life to the road conditions. And I believe the same should be true for rail commuters. If your train is always late (and this train is quite literally always late), you need to account for that. That woman needs to realise that "the train company said it would arrive at xx:xx" is not an excuse for being perpetually late for work and, like the road user, she should adapt. Perhaps she could take the train leaving just 14 minutes earlier (given that the frequency of the trains on the route is so high).

My suggestion is that either this isn't actually an issue for her, in which case she's just moaning for the sake of moaning. Or, if it is regularly impacting her work, she needs to either get on the earlier train, or consider that she may not be sufficiently dedicated to her work and should reconsider her career.

FWIW, the remainder of the programme picked up and became quite good towards the end. Glad to see that they didn't just stick with the moaning commuters, but actually looked at quite a few genuine problems, and indeed some solutions. I thought they did a decent job in the limited time they had whilst trying to appeal to the mass market. My TV has not been vandalised!

 

[CC 72100]

In the show's defense, I did feel that the latter half, certainly the funding re' Network Rail was the more interesting bit of the show, as it considered some of the more structural issues as opposed to the superficial ones (delays, rolling stock condition) that are already very clearly well known about.

I do find it strange how one good journey on Northern Irish railways suddenly means that they are getting everything right and us everything wrong though!

 

[northofthesand]

I thought the bloke stood up shouting to the crowd outside Finsbury Park was a character out of the Harry Enfield and chums show at first I had to rewind it and watch it again

 

[Aldaniti]

Like they also mentioned, Northern Ireland rail network is tiny in comparison to the UK. As they quite rightly pointed out renationalisation will not cure the congestion issues on the UK network. NR are the big problem and the are nationalised to all intents and purposes.

Size is irrelevant if you have effective management, the principles of railway operation remain the same. It is only because the structure and operation has been grossly over-complicated (no doubt partly by those with a vested interest) and operational management skill was allowed to evaporate with the advent of privatisation, that the railway is now the overly bureaucratic mess that it is. If you only take one example of a gross waste of money, it is the Delay Attribution system. But as a strong sceptic of privatisation, even I was astonished to hear that meetings costing hundreds if not thousands of pounds take place to discuss the size of birds and who pays the bill. Frankly, if it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. We really have lost sight of the wood for the trees. If I was less charitable I might say the lunatics are now running the asylum. Network Rail is racking up a huge debt which is supposed to be paid by inflation erosion (not so funny now that inflation is at, err zero!), God only knows how much of that has already gone on Delay Attribution and compensation payments! Write to Virgin and say you got toothache when travelling from Penrith to Carlisle and you might get twenty quid, more if you push it. They sent me fifty quid a couple of years ago as 'compensation' when I wrote to praise a member of staff. It will end in disaster, mark my words. The only credible long-term solution is to re-nationalise as and when franchises expire. It can be done, we have East Coast as a reasonably successful example of that. The only thing we can't do is replace all that operational experience that was lost in the late nineties, but you have to start somewhere for the long term good.

 

[yorksrob]

Simply stating over again "Nobody ever had a good word to say about BR" probably wasn't the most scientific assessment of the achievements and shortcomings of the former state operator, but to be fair to Ms Mountford, it was still more considered and comprehensive than the Major Government's arguments for privatisation in the 1990's.

 

[Crossover]

The train divides at Birmingham New Street and wondered where the other portion goes to?

By the sound of it, one half continues to Shrewsbury whilst the other half terminates and forms a new service back to Euston. It happens on a regular basis at Chester I believe, with a few double Voyagers arriving, the fron thalf detaching and going on to Holyhead whilst the set left behind goes onto another diagram

 

[cjmillsnun]

The problem with delay attribution is that the whole process just circulates money round and costs a lot in administration. It would be better not to bother, but then you don't want to remove any incentive not to cause delays from network rail and the TOCs. I think having a simplified penalty regime with fixed payouts so it ends up costing both NR and the TOCs money when their services are delayed whatever the cause would be simpler and cheaper, if less "fair".

I think tearing the whole thing up and forming more alliances like the SWT/NR alliance would be better.

 

[ac6000cw]

I think tearing the whole thing up and forming more alliances like the SWT/NR alliance would be better.

I generally agree, but you have to be careful not remove all the financial incentives/penalties - they are an important 'bottom line' item to focus management attention on fixing recurring problems. Without that things could easily drift towards a 'nobody cares' situation.

 

[LAX54]

So, it will basically be a re-run of this, except with different colours on the trains?

No same colour on some as they used the same footage !

 

[Dave1987]

Size is irrelevant if you have effective management, the principles of railway operation remain the same. It is only because the structure and operation has been grossly over-complicated (no doubt partly by those with a vested interest) and operational management skill was allowed to evaporate with the advent of privatisation, that the railway is now the overly bureaucratic mess that it is. If you only take one example of a gross waste of money, it is the Delay Attribution system. But as a strong sceptic of privatisation, even I was astonished to hear that meetings costing hundreds if not thousands of pounds take place to discuss the size of birds and who pays the bill. Frankly, if it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. We really have lost sight of the wood for the trees. If I was less charitable I might say the lunatics are now running the asylum. Network Rail is racking up a huge debt which is supposed to be paid by inflation erosion (not so funny now that inflation is at, err zero!), God only knows how much of that has already gone on Delay Attribution and compensation payments! Write to Virgin and say you got toothache when travelling from Penrith to Carlisle and you might get twenty quid, more if you push it. They sent me fifty quid a couple of years ago as 'compensation' when I wrote to praise a member of staff. It will end in disaster, mark my words. The only credible long-term solution is to re-nationalise as and when franchises expire. It can be done, we have East Coast as a reasonably successful example of that. The only thing we can't do is replace all that operational experience that was lost in the late nineties, but you have to start somewhere for the long term good.

Again how is renationalisation going to cure the core issues on the network? The railway is too congested and nationalisation wont do anything to stop that. The delay attribution is born of the "right time railway" method of thinking in that every delay has to have a reason and accountability and you could argue that the modern day passenger has inadvertently caused that by wanting compensation for delays.

The East Coast is one line that National Express made a complete hash of so wasn't difficult for DOR to do a better job. Would love to see a nationalised railway make Southeastern magically work properly. Even the head of NR said he wouldn't want to go back to BR. The program clearly said that the big elephant in the room and the big problem is Network Rail which is nationalised to all intents and purposes.

 

[yorksrob]

The program clearly said that the big elephant in the room and the big problem is Network Rail which is nationalised to all intents and purposes.

And what would your solution be to that. Sell it off ? I don't recall them suggesting that.

The programme pointed out quite a few foibles of our modern railway (which have been well versed here), however the underlying impression I got was that with some tweaking and best practice, the current system could probably work better, but don't expect miracles. Evolution not revolution.

 

[MP33]

An addition to cliché watch.

A shot of, or a visit to the old British Railways HQ at Marylebone.

 

[Dave1987]

And what would your solution be to that. Sell it off ? I don't recall them suggesting that.

The programme pointed out quite a few foibles of our modern railway (which have been well versed here), however the underlying impression I got was that with some tweaking and best practice, the current system could probably work better, but don't expect miracles. Evolution not revolution.

I've seen countless amounts of money wasted by Network Rail, and I'm sure it is the same around the country. Now I am by no means saying that NR should be put into private hands at all. But I believe the current system needs tweaking. The whole delay attribution is definitely a monster that has been created by the compensation culture we now have in this country. Take away the penalties to NR and the TOCs for if a train is slightly delayed and put something that is reasonable in place. So both get penalised only if trains are delayed due to something preventable by either.

 

[GodAtum]

I completely agree that the train should arrive on time, and I'm not going to defend the atrocious punctuality record.

But, as grown adults and as professionals, we have a responsibility to arrive at work on time.

If I was in my car driving down the motorway, I might know that I ought to be able to do my journey in x minutes. However, due to congestion, I am frequently not able to achieve this time, and I am often late for work. As a result, I must adapt my life to the road conditions. And I believe the same should be true for rail commuters. If your train is always late (and this train is quite literally always late), you need to account for that. That woman needs to realise that "the train company said it would arrive at xx:xx" is not an excuse for being perpetually late for work and, like the road user, she should adapt. Perhaps she could take the train leaving just 14 minutes earlier (given that the frequency of the trains on the route is so high).

My suggestion is that either this isn't actually an issue for her, in which case she's just moaning for the sake of moaning. Or, if it is regularly impacting her work, she needs to either get on the earlier train, or consider that she may not be sufficiently dedicated to her work and should reconsider her career.

FWIW, the remainder of the programme picked up and became quite good towards the end. Glad to see that they didn't just stick with the moaning commuters, but actually looked at quite a few genuine problems, and indeed some solutions. I thought they did a decent job in the limited time they had whilst trying to appeal to the mass market. My TV has not been vandalised!

My suggestion would be for the TOC to change the timetable so it matches what the train actually does.

 

[me123]

^ I would agree, although it would of course be very politically sensitive. It would lead to an increased journey time on paper, which would make the trains appear "slower". It would look like they were fiddling the timetable to manipulate their performance figures (which they kind of would be doing) and they would be fixing the problem on the surface without actually fixing the core problem (which, again, they would kind of be doing).

 

[Tetchytyke]

TOO MANY trains it is as simple as that, one train late that may have nothing to do with your train, but will knock on for hours !

And if it happens once in a while that's fine, even small things like getting a wheelchair passenger on board can account for a couple of minutes.

But when it happens every single day it is incompetence. Either the timetable is wrong or the operator is wrong. Usually a bit of both. I know my train's usually delayed because London Midland are incapable of getting the ECS for the Watford Flyer out of Euston on time, meaning it arrives into Watford late and holds us up whilst it gets into the bay. As far as I can tell that's because they've cut crew turnaround times right back to the bone, meaning that a late-arriving crew will just be late for the rest of their entire shift.

I do find it strange how one good journey on Northern Irish railways suddenly means that they are getting everything right and us everything wrong though!

I don't think Translink are getting everything right, but they are doing a very good job. It's not just on the trains, either, Ulster Bus are just as good.

The fact that one company is responsible for most of the transport in Ulster helps. Whether that company is state or private doesn't matter so much, although the idea of handing all the transport to one company would be "interesting".

 

[DaiGog]

I completely agree that the train should arrive on time, and I'm not going to defend the atrocious punctuality record.

But, as grown adults and as professionals, we have a responsibility to arrive at work on time.

If I was in my car driving down the motorway, I might know that I ought to be able to do my journey in x minutes. However, due to congestion, I am frequently not able to achieve this time, and I am often late for work. As a result, I must adapt my life to the road conditions. And I believe the same should be true for rail commuters. If your train is always late (and this train is quite literally always late), you need to account for that. That woman needs to realise that "the train company said it would arrive at xx:xx" is not an excuse for being perpetually late for work and, like the road user, she should adapt. Perhaps she could take the train leaving just 14 minutes earlier (given that the frequency of the trains on the route is so high).

My suggestion is that either this isn't actually an issue for her, in which case she's just moaning for the sake of moaning. Or, if it is regularly impacting her work, she needs to either get on the earlier train, or consider that she may not be sufficiently dedicated to her work and should reconsider her career.

Quite. If it's such an issue for her that she's arriving late at work every day then surely her employer would be on her back about it all the time? If she worked for me I'd be reminding her of her obligation to start work at the time I pay her to start - accepting that the delay to that train is beyond her control, it's not her employer's fault either and the buck stops with her. So yes, moaning for the sake of moaning I fear.

 

[martynbristow]

I think tearing the whole thing up and forming more alliances like the SWT/NR alliance would be better.

It's not that simple. SWT work out of a single terminal they solely operate and have a monopoly over the route running lots of services. You can't make those kind of calls on say West Coast. It's not a 1 size fits all solution.