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TVM out of order: permit to travel

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urbophile

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I booked online a ticket for travel tomorrow between Cressington and Huddersfield, via Liverpool South Parkway. Cressington is only one stop from Parkway, but as the fare is the same I wanted to avoid having to pay the £1 or so for that bit of the journey (yes I am a Yorkshireman). I went to Parkway to collect the tickets (including reservation) from the TVM but although it was selling tickets for cash it was not taking cards or issuing prebooked tickets.

I had an interesting conversation with a very courteous and friendly member of Merseyrail staff. She explained that the ticket office was unable to issue the tickets because it is run by Merseyrail whereas the TVM belongs to Northern (the train I will be using is Transpennine Express). She said that if I had been travelling today she could have issued a permit to travel, but they are unable to issue these in advance so I would need to pick one up tomorrow (if the machine is still not working).

That would be fine but it still means I would be liable to pay the (Merseyrail) fare from Cressington. According to the conditions of carriage that is the case even if it is impossible for me to collect my ticket for reasons beyond my control. The staff member was very understanding and reasonable about this and said that if there was any problem getting through the barrier tomorrow to mention her name and she would sort it out.

So there is no real problem for me tomorrow (and I would shrug my shoulders and pay the extra fare to Merseyrail if I had to). But it highlights several things.

[1] There is only one ticket vending machine at this station marketed as an international hub serving the airport. It is frequently breaking down. The ticket office doubles (in Merseyrail style) as a shop selling magazines, drinks, confectionery etc. Frequently the queues are long and it is easy to miss a train despite leaving plenty of time.

[2] The station is served by five TOCs (it will be six, temporarily, when Lime Street is closed for a month shortly). Yet there seems to be little co-ordination between Merseyrail who operate the station, and the other TOCs, including Northern who are responsible for this machine.

[3] It's outrageous for a passenger who has already paid for the journey, and has confirmation of that with an email and booking reference, to be treated as if they were a fare dodger just because they are unable to get hold of the right piece of card.

[4] If one is making a journey on a connecting train from a station without a TVM, it is inconvenient to have to make a prior journey to another station simply to pick up a prebooked ticket. Worse than that if the journey was in vain as in my case. Why can't booking office staff print the tickets if a machine is unavailable?

[5] In other countries e-tickets are common. I believe there are some services in Britain where there are available. Since a ticket is simply proof of purchase of the right to travel, why is it impossible in this technological age to accept electronic evidence?

[6] Bearing in mind that this particular station, along with many others, is likely to be used by many people, British and foreign, with little familiarity with the Kafka-esque workings of the British railway system, finding a much more user-friendly system is surely a priority.
 
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causton

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[1] There is only one ticket vending machine at this station marketed as an international hub serving the airport. It is frequently breaking down. The ticket office doubles (in Merseyrail style) as a shop selling magazines, drinks, confectionery etc. Frequently the queues are long and it is easy to miss a train despite leaving plenty of time.
Correct - although the mention of queues etc is not that relevant because you had 'plenty of time', coming before your journey to pick up the ticket.

[2] The station is served by five TOCs (it will be six, temporarily, when Lime Street is closed for a month shortly). Yet there seems to be little co-ordination between Merseyrail who operate the station, and the other TOCs, including Northern who are responsible for this machine.
Only really Northern and Merseyrail will be interested in this station - it is quite far away from the core area of most other TOCs for them to be interested. So Northern should really put a second machine in, IMO.

[3] It's outrageous for a passenger who has already paid for the journey, and has confirmation of that with an email and booking reference, to be treated as if they were a fare dodger just because they are unable to get hold of the right piece of card.
You would be amazed how many people I have caught trying to get someone else through the barrier with their email, or having refunded the tickets still trying to pick them up, etc.
[4] If one is making a journey on a connecting train from a station without a TVM, it is inconvenient to have to make a prior journey to another station simply to pick up a prebooked ticket. Worse than that if the journey was in vain as in my case. Why can't booking office staff print the tickets if a machine is unavailable?
Merseyrail, as a local metro operator, do not care about ToD (ticket on departure - booked through Internet or Telesales etc) bookings. That is their choice and apparently it is not mandatory as they seem to get away with it. They cannot print it as they do not deal with ToD - and in some cases reservations - at all, which is a bit backwards in this day and age I agree.

[5] In other countries e-tickets are common. I believe there are some services in Britain where there are available. Since a ticket is simply proof of purchase of the right to travel, why is it impossible in this technological age to accept electronic evidence?
Same as quote 3. E-tickets are developing and expanding across the country as time goes on, but hasn't quite reached everywhere yet.

[6] Bearing in mind that this particular station, along with many others, is likely to be used by many people, British and foreign, with little familiarity with the Kafka-esque workings of the British railway system, finding a much more user-friendly system is surely a priority.
I have seen the cards they give out at Liverpool South Parkway - and they are actually one of the most user-friendly solutions I have found - it is a little business card that is stamped and signed to allow travel with the reference number/email/whatever the passenger has. Unfortunately, they do not issue it the day before.

Not really defending the situation, as IMO in this day and age Merseyrail not accepting cards/ToD collections is a bit backwards, and that is the crux of your issue, as if they let you pick up your ticket from your starting station none of this would have happened. Unfortunately the railway is nowhere near as simple as anyone thinks and the situation persists!
 

sheff1

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Bearing in mind that this particular station, along with many others, is likely to be used by many people, British and foreign, with little familiarity with the Kafka-esque workings of the British railway system, finding a much more user-friendly system is surely a priority.

Unfortunately finding and implementing a better system is not a priority to those who have the power to do so.

Meanwhile, I am flying into Sweden in the near future and have already printed, at home, the tickets for the 3 rail journeys (one of which starts from an unstaffed station) I will be making. I could, if I wished, choose to show the tickets on a smartphone, tablet or laptop but I prefer paper.
 

najaB

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Meanwhile, I am flying into Sweden in the near future and have already printed, at home, the tickets for the 3 rail journeys (one of which starts from an unstaffed station) I will be making.
Would I be right in assuming that those are fixed itinerary journeys?
 

Bletchleyite

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As Merseyrail can't resolve (bad though that is) I would be inclined to pay the extra Merseyrail fare and seek to get a refund from Northern for failure to provide the collection facility they agreed at the time of booking.

The Merseyrail thing is a disgrace, though. I still think RDG/ATOC should tell them to pack in their insularity (disrespect of Railcards, ToD, disinterest in integration) or be expelled from membership and stand alone with the complete loss of any benefits from through ticketing (commission etc).
 
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sheff1

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Would I be right in assuming that those are fixed itinerary journeys?

They are, as are most 'long distance' journeys in Sweden, but when I travel to Germany I can print tickets for non-fixed journeys, including those involving multiple operators, before I leave the UK.
 

Bletchleyite

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They are, as are most 'long distance' journeys in Sweden, but when I travel to Germany I can print tickets for non-fixed journeys, including those involving multiple operators, before I leave the UK.

With online verification or mostly-online verification there is no reason walk-up fares cannot be done using barcodes. It would be much more secure than orange card, because even if there was a need to wait for the "grip" to be recorded in some cases, it could record a huge amount of detail[1] and automatically identify and flag some fraud, e.g. re-use or partial re-use.

[1] I'd probably start with:-
- Guard number/name
- Train reporting number
- GPS/cell locate location (display "between X and Y stations")
- Precise date and time

Much, much more than a biro scribble!
 
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gray1404

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I can only imagine how many of these authorities to travel will be getting issued once Lime Street closes.

It does put my mind at ease that they do issue such at Liverpool South Parkway.

I normally travel from Formby to Brighton via Liverpool South Parkway and Stafford (sometimes via Birmingham New Street) and London with London Midland. When I board the train at Formby I always try to get off at Liverpool Central and head across to Lime Street to collect my LM ticket rather then staying on until Liverpool South Parkway.

There is always that worry that I will be stuck at Liverpool South Parkway without a ticket if the one TVM is out of service. I also just tend to have the reference number written down, so I guess the staff would just have to accept this and take my word for it as to the journey details. Although I guess (subject to battery) I could produce my booking confirmation on my phone.
 

mallard

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Unfortunately finding and implementing a better system is not a priority to those who have the power to do so.

Exactly. We may as well get used to it. The current government regime openly hates public transport and doesn't care in the slightest for anyone north of Watford. Your only value to TOCs is the fare you pay, and if they can increase that by imposing penalties and fines, they'll absolutely try. The chances of getting even the most marginal of transport improvements (even "cheap" improvements like fixing the horribly broken ticketing system) in the Midlands/North within the next decade are precisely zero. Even those that have previously been announced and committed to are being cancelled hand-over-fist. Even Passenger Focus has been abolished. </rant>

Meanwhile, I am flying into Sweden in the near future and have already printed, at home, the tickets for the 3 rail journeys (one of which starts from an unstaffed station) I will be making. I could, if I wished, choose to show the tickets on a smartphone, tablet or laptop but I prefer paper.

Any sane person should prefer paper tickets. The whole idea of having a ticket that's tied to a device with limited battery capacity that's already the most attractive-to-pickpockets item on my person is (in my opinion) just crazy. Phone gets stolen or runs out of power (e.g. due to a massively delayed train with no power sockets)? Not only are you now stranded with no way of calling for help, you'll more than likely end up with a court summons for not having a train ticket.

The UK railways desperately need to move into the 21st century when it comes to ticketing. There's no good reason why every ticket (no matter how it's delivered) can't have a unique barcode that's scanned on the train. That would cut down illegal ticket re-use/duplication, allow for easy automatic delay compensation for all ticket types and provide accurate ticket usage data to replace the utterly hopeless, easily "gamed"/"raided" and competition-stifling relic of the 1980s that is ORCATS.

Of course, while we have a government that takes sadistic pleasure in screwing over the travelling public, nothing nearly that sensible is ever going to happen.
 

Clip

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Any sane person should prefer paper tickets. The whole idea of having a ticket that's tied to a device with limited battery capacity that's already the most attractive-to-pickpockets item on my person is (in my opinion) just crazy. Phone gets stolen or runs out of power (e.g. due to a massively delayed train with no power sockets)? Not only are you now stranded with no way of calling for help, you'll more than likely end up with a court summons for not having a train ticket.

.


And what happens when your wallet gets pickpocketed and that houses your paper tickets AND your cash? Maybe whilst youre actually on your journey on the train.... What happens then oh sane person?
 

mallard

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And what happens when your wallet gets pickpocketed and that houses your paper tickets AND your cash? Maybe whilst youre actually on your journey on the train.... What happens then oh sane person?

Then at least you've got a phone to call for help... What exactly is the "advantage" of having a ticket on your phone anyway? It has obvious disadvantages as I pointed out, but I can't really see an "upside" that would make it worthwhile.

Maybe saving the TOC a tiny amount of money by not printing a paper ticket? I'm sure the app development costs more than that would save... I suppose in the case where you don't live near a (reliable) TVM-equipped station, want to buy a ticket online, can't wait for delivery and don't own a printer?
 

AlterEgo

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Then at least you've got a phone to call for help... What exactly is the "advantage" of having a ticket on your phone anyway? It has obvious disadvantages as I pointed out, but I can't really see an "upside" that would make it worthwhile.

Maybe saving the TOC a tiny amount of money by not printing a paper ticket? I'm sure the app development costs more than that would save... I suppose in the case where you don't live near a (reliable) TVM-equipped station, want to buy a ticket online, can't wait for delivery and don't own a printer?

The advantage to someone like me - who lives through their phone - is that it is very unlikely to be lost or run flat. The ticket is less likely to be lost, become damaged, etc.

That isn't the same for everyone, but there are different horses for different courses as they say.
 

6Gman

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And what happens when your wallet gets pickpocketed and that houses your paper tickets AND your cash? Maybe whilst youre actually on your journey on the train.... What happens then oh sane person?

You report it as a crime and then follow the laid-down procedures to get you home.
 

Clip

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You report it as a crime and then follow the laid-down procedures to get you home.


So what we all agree on then is that whatever happens whether it is a paper ticket that gets lost or your phone that gets lost/runs out of battery you will be treated exactly the same in both cases?

Phew, for a minute there I thought we'd be going round in circles just like on the digital railcard thread.
 

gray1404

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I dread to think what is going to happen when Liverpool Lime Street is closed, I could imagine the TVM at Liverpool South Parkway will be out of order many times and cause a lot of problems.
 

M28361M

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From looking at complaints on Twitter I see that the machine at LPY was out of order again today! However there are couple of interesting comments from Merseyrail in the conversation (hopefully if you start at this tweet you can see the whole thread)

@merseyrail machine at LSP not working for pre-booked collection again! Be a disaster when lime st closes. Why can't ticket office provide?

Hi Paul, sorry for the inconvenience. Our system doesn't allow collection from staff sorry. We will be installing additional(1)

machines during to closure. Sorry again for the inconvenience caused Paul. (2) ^DM

Thanks DM but surely you can update your office system. It's not rocket science. Crazy that a main hub can't do what Hunts X can.

(aside - can Hunts Cross really issue TOD bookings?)

We are working to introduce more ways to collect tickets/ online ticketing in the future Paul. Thanks for you feedback. ^DM

So, if Merseyrail's twitter team are to be believed we could be getting extra ticket machines at Liverpool South Parkway and they are "working" to introduce more ways to collect tickets. Interesting...
 
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