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Two men refuse disabled woman seats (when there were no seat reservations)

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Master29

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ssengers-Facebook-refused-reserved-seats.html

Cat Lee, from Hebden Bridge in West Yorkshire, booked the seats on the Virgin East Coast service from King's Cross to Skipton yesterday.

She wrote: 'Meet these gentlemen. Travelling from London Kings Cross on the 18:03 to Skipton.
'Charming fellows took reserved seats from Rach & I. As a disabled passenger, I stated why I needed my reserve seat. They didn't budge.

'I'm sure their wives and mothers would be proud of them.'

One of the men in the picture last night contacted MailOnline but did not wish to be named. He claimed that Mrs Lee said she could not stand because she suffered from groin pain but did not claim to be disabled or appear distressed.
Due to earlier delays, Virgin Trains staff had not had time to put up reservation tickets on the back of seats. The man said there had been an announcement on the train stating seat reservations were no longer valid – meaning the passengers were under no obligation to give up their seats.
Seems pretty straight forward on the face of it but this is the DailyMail so that in itself should be thought provoking. One wonders if she spoke to the TM as it seems she didn't. Pain in the arris the pop ups but all media is like this now. This was Virgin East Coast by the way.
 
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howittpie

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Though it now appears that there were no reserved seats on the train due to earlier cancellations. Got this from the Evening Standard can't do a link as on my phone.
 
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northwichcat

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Can someone post the relevant parts of the 'story' so people don't have to click through and fund the Daily Mail in doing so.
 

Master29

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Can someone post the relevant parts of the 'story' so people don't have to click through and fund the Daily Mail in doing so.


A disabled woman who suffers crippling pain claims she was forced to stand on a train for more than an hour after two men 'refused' to move from her reserved seats.

Cat Lee, from Hebden Bridge in West Yorkshire, booked the seats on the Virgin East Coast service from King's Cross to Skipton yesterday.

When the 43-year-old and her friend boarded the train, the men apparently refused to move so she posted their pictures on social media.
She wrote: 'Meet these gentlemen. Travelling from London Kings Cross on the 18:03 to Skipton.
'Charming fellows took reserved seats from Rach & I. As a disabled passenger, I stated why I needed my reserve seat. They didn't budge.
'I'm sure their wives and mothers would be proud of them.'
One of the men in the picture last night contacted MailOnline but did not wish to be named. He claimed that Mrs Lee said she could not stand because she suffered from groin pain but did not claim to be disabled or appear distressed.
Due to earlier delays, Virgin Trains staff had not had time to put up reservation tickets on the back of seats. The man said there had been an announcement on the train stating seat reservations were no longer valid – meaning the passengers were under no obligation to give up their seats.

I think the last bit does clarify things a bit but still if true a bit of a shameful episode.
 

96tommy

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Don't know who to believe... the fact that reservations were cancelled on the train changes the story completely but they still should have moved. I wonder if she asked anybody in the priority seats if she could sit there. pretty sure the labels state that priority given to the elderly, pregnant and disabled?
 

Master29

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Don't know who to believe... the fact that reservations were cancelled on the train changes the story completely but they still should have moved. I wonder if she asked anybody in the priority seats if she could sit there. pretty sure the labels state that priority given to the elderly, pregnant and disabled?

I think priority seats were created to encompass a wider range of issues and not just the elderly or disabled. Pregnant mothers spring to mind. This in no way changes anything on this thread however.
 

camperdown9

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Don't know...difficult.

If she really is disabled would someone not of offered her a seat? Could she not of spoken to the onboard staff and asked if they could help find her a seat?

I didn't grow up in England and as kids we were told if a bus or a train was full to give up our seats for the elderly, those with walking issues and also for women. I moved to England when I was in my 20's and as a fit and healthy young guy I once offered my seat on the tube to a middle aged lady. The response I got was not pleasant. She told me that she was every bit my equal. That she wasn't somehow weak or inferior to me and that I was was being sexist by assuming that she needed a seat more than me.
 

Bletchleyite

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First thing, reservations were not placed. Therefore, as confirmed by the guard[1], they do not apply. This means that everyone has the same entitlement to a seat on that train as they would have were reservations not offered on that train. In such a case, that means it would be the right thing to do to give up a seat for someone who is disabled, but not necessarily for a carer who is able to stand.

Second thing, does anyone find that the reading of the article shows the passengers who did not get their reserved seat as maybe showing rather a level of entitlement and, possibly, having not been polite in requesting the occupiers if they could have the seats? In such circumstances I would move if asked politely, I would not move if asked rudely.

Third thing, was their issue addressed to the guard, who could have found alternatives, in First Class if necessary? The article does not say; perhaps they prefer to "name and shame" people who have broken no rule whatsoever than to follow the appropriate procedure in the event of a reservation not being honoured?

I fear we are not getting the full story here, as ever in this kind of case.

[1] I wish TOCs would display prominent signs explaining the rules in case of reservations not being displayed. It almost doesn't matter what the rules are, what matters is that they are stated and applied consistently rather than people guessing.
 
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6Gman

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Don't know...difficult.

If she really is disabled would someone not of offered her a seat? Could she not of spoken to the onboard staff and asked if they could help find her a seat?

I didn't grow up in England and as kids we were told if a bus or a train was full to give up our seats for the elderly, those with walking issues and also for women. I moved to England when I was in my 20's and as a fit and healthy young guy I once offered my seat on the tube to a middle aged lady. The response I got was not pleasant. She told me that she was every bit my equal. That she wasn't somehow weak or inferior to me and that I was was being sexist by assuming that she needed a seat more than me.

She could have spoken to onboard staff - but with a disability she may have found getting through the train to find them difficult. (I believe she was travelling with her husband who - depending on the nature of her disability - may not have wanted to leave her.)
 

J-2739

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First thing, reservations were not placed. Therefore, as confirmed by the guard[1], they do not apply. This means that everyone has the same entitlement to a seat on that train as they would have were reservations not offered on that train. In such a case, that means it would be the right thing to do to give up a seat for someone who is disabled, but not necessarily for a carer who is able to stand.


The paper I read (Metro) contradicts this for some reason.
 

Gareth Marston

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Can't see the fuss wasn't their a big thing made about overcrowding on VTEC services being a lie spread by archaic nationalisers recently?:oops:

She could have easily found a seat if true.
 

Bletchleyite

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The paper I read (Metro) contradicts this for some reason.

It can be seen from the photograph on Twitter that reservations were not placed; they are not present on the seats. VTEC does not have electronic displays. The only other possibility is a passenger having removed them, but this is not being alleged.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
She could have easily found a seat if true.

The photograph appears to have been taken from a seat.
 
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lincolnshire

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I am suprised that no one has passed comment about here pluging in her heating pad in the socket as its not designed for that use as the socket states when you read after diss missing the Virgin crap thats above it.

Sounds like someone after some money out of Virgin or a free journey.

She could have joined Mr. Jermey Corben on the floor if he had been travelling on the same train.
 

Tim R-T-C

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Not all VTEC trains have sockets anyway, IIRC the unrefurbished Mk3 sets do not have plugs in standard. She should have booked first if the heat pads are so essential.

The story does sound like a disputes/prosecutions thread, with endless extra reasons being added on - she was disabled, needed a heated pad, the passengers were talking about luxury holidays, the train was busy... et al.
 

Zoidberg

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What a non-story.

What prevents this woman and her minder understanding that "reservations not valid" = "reservations not valid".

The matter should have been taken up with on-board staff, as mentioned up-thread. If the woman was unable to move from where she was, she could have sent her minder to find the Train Manager.
 
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Jonny

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Besides, if that was me in such a picture, I would be getting in touch with the Information Commissioner and/or the relevant Press watchdog.
 

trainophile

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Do we know the age group of the two men who "refused to move"? If they were getting on a bit themselves, and there were seats occupied by younger folk, I don't really blame them not relinquishing the seats they were in. I'd have thought younger people should do the decent thing in such a situation.
 

Darandio

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Do we know the age group of the two men who "refused to move"? If they were getting on a bit themselves, and there were seats occupied by younger folk, I don't really blame them not relinquishing the seats they were in. I'd have thought younger people should do the decent thing in such a situation.

You could take a guess if you like, theres a picture in the first link.
 

TUC

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Wouldn't it be better-and deliverable in terms of small enough numbers-that even where reservatons are generally cancelled on a train, those made for passengers who have booked assistance are maintained and labelled (even if somtimes the location of the seat has had to change to another carriage).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do we know the age group of the two men who "refused to move"? If they were getting on a bit themselves, and there were seats occupied by younger folk, I don't really blame them not relinquishing the seats they were in. I'd have thought younger people should do the decent thing in such a situation.

Have a look at the photo.
 

BigCj34

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I think passengers are entitled to be annoyed if they can't sit down on a seat they specifically reserved. It would be slightly annoying if I booked a seat with a table and power socket and couldn't get one, but a lot more so if I cannot sit down at all. Should passengers who cannot get a seat despite having reserved one get compensation?

In the defence of the two gentlemen, if they could not see a visible disability and it was difficult to prove then they may be a bit skeptical of the lady's claim. Maybe it's time there should be a National Rail Tfl style blue badge? Or surely is flashing a disability railcard enough?
 

TUC

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Besides, if that was me in such a picture, I would be getting in touch with the Information Commissioner and/or the relevant Press watchdog.

There's no law against randomly taking or publishing photos-as rail enthusists should well know.
 

trainophile

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Oops sorry :oops: . I didn't open the link as I thought the posted text was the full story.

So, about 40-ish then. Looks like they might have come from the office and needed to work, as they are dressed in casual business clothes.

Yes, the guard should have been asked to find seats for the two women. The fact that those two men were in their original reserved places counts for nothing if reservations are not in use, so unless the entire train was rammed something could have been sorted out.
 

johnr57

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Hey maybe reservations were not in place but surely as gentlemen somebody would realise the issue and give up their seat to a worthy cause as appears in this case, as I do frequently on packed tpe between Lds and York it's a human issue not vtec policy issue


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Darandio

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Hey maybe reservations were not in place but surely as gentlemen somebody would realise the issue and give up their seat to a worthy cause as appears in this case, as I do frequently on packed tpe between Lds and York it's a human issue not vtec policy issue

It's not that easy to see that there is an issue. However, a quote in the article (apparently from the father of one of the men) states that the woman sat all the way.

I'm cynical, especially when I read stuff in the Mail, and this seems to me more of a gripe of not being able to sit in the reserved seats. Reading completely unrelated quotes about the guys talking about expensive holidays etc reinforces it for me.
 

dviner

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The news reports I've seen about this have varying levels of information regarding what happened - including "the train was packed, so it wasn't possible to go find the guard", VT saying "nothing about this incident has been reported to us".

We weren't there, we didn't witness the incident, we don't know what was said between the parties involved, or how it was phrased.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Don't know if it was a smart phone that she took the photo on, but if it was, why didn't she tweet VTEC, who could have then contacted the guard?
 

broadgage

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Would a plug in heating pad have tripped a local fuse/breaker in the socket?

I very much doubt it. A full single size electric blanket is often only about 60 or at the most 100 watts.
I would expect that an electrically heated pad would have a lower loading, in at least rough proportion to the area being heated.
So unlikely to exceed 40 watts, and probably less. Many laptop PCs use more than that especially if charging the internal battery.
 
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