Two new stations: Bermuda Park and Coventry (previously Ricoh) Arena

[DynamicSpirit]

I meant it was a possibility, although it's bad idea anyway. Is there a specific reason why it's not preferable to extend the New St. to International/Coventry stoppers to Leamington Spa? As far as I know, there's 1 spare path between International and Coventry and if necessary, stopping pattern in existing services could be changed to accommodate an extra train.

Aren't those services normally run by EMUs? I imagine an EMU would have some difficulty running on the non-electrified line to Leamington!

 

[Hophead]

Is there a specific reason why it's not preferable to extend the New St. to International/Coventry stoppers to Leamington Spa? As far as I know, there's 1 spare path between International and Coventry and if necessary, stopping pattern in existing services could be changed to accommodate an extra train.

Lack of electrification

 

[TSR :D]

Aren't those services normally run by EMUs? I imagine an EMU would have some difficulty running on the non-electrified line to Leamington!

Isn't Leamington-Coventry line going to be electrified as part of electric spine? With all electrification projects going on at moment, it wouldn't be too hard to find a few DMUs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Isn't Leamington-Coventry line going to be electrified as part of electric spine? With all electrification projects going on at moment, it wouldn't be too hard to find a few DMUs.

It is indeed planned to be electrified as part of the electric spine. However there is as yet no date for this to happen, and at the very earliest it won't be until some years after Kenilworth station opens and the Coventry-Leamington shuttle is running.

I think DMUs are likely to be in very short supply for some years even with the electrification programs. Loads of DMU-operated lines in the North of England are overcrowded and desparately need longer trains, which will probably account for most of the stock released by electrification. Then there's the issue of how long we can carry on using pacers for...

 

[The Planner]

Extending the International stoppers is going to need more stock as well as being a nightmare to path based on the current timetable. It gets chased by the Virgin and the next LM to Euston. If you held it until after those left you would have to run to Cov non stop or you screw the XC to Bournemouth. Changing the stopping pattern of other LMs potentially ruins connectivity south of Cov.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Maybe someone should look at options to build a new railway to take all those express trains off the overcrowded Birmingham to Coventry corridor?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

But they need to stop at BHM, BHI and COV so what do you bypass? It's a shame it's only a two track railway, but it would be prohibitively expensive to four track it so we are stuck.

Am I right in thinking that XC will want to go Oxford - MKC - Rugby - Coventry - Birmingham when the East - West opens? Will that be the Manchester train which already goes via Coventry (which makes more sense to me) or do they want to try and cram the Newcastle train which currently goes via Warwick up the Coventry corridor too?

 

[The Planner]

I have always been led to believe that a XC via E-W would go via the Trent Valley and is extra to what is there now. XC would give their right arm to get the current Newcastle via the Cov corridor along with the Bournemouths.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

This is going off topic so it will be my last question on the matter, but where will XC get the stock for such a service? Would it call at any Trent Valley stations? (Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth might justify a stop?) and where will it terminate? Manchester or Liverpool make sense I guess.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is going off topic so it will be my last question on the matter, but where will XC get the stock for such a service? Would it call at any Trent Valley stations? (Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth might justify a stop?) and where will it terminate? Manchester or Liverpool make sense I guess.

Network Rail included a prospective 'third XC' in the recent Western route study, running from 2019 as a Basingstoke to Man Picc, via Reading, Oxford, EWR and WCML. By then it could be run by a fast EMU throughout; so probably have to be new build for 110 mph running on the WCML, (or very unlikely 125 mph if fitted with tilt).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But they need to stop at BHM, BHI and COV so what do you bypass? It's a shame it's only a two track railway, but it would be prohibitively expensive to four track it so we are stuck.

Oddly, I'm sure I recall reading a newspaper article back in the 80s (may have been early 90s) about lack of investment in the railways, which cited the Birmingham-Coventry line as a line that desperately needed four-tracking, but thanks to lack of investment there was no money to do it.

Even with HS2 coming, it arguably still needs to be 4-tracked to allow decent local and long-distance services. But as you say, it would be very expensive to do.

 

[The Planner]

It doesnt need complete 4 tracking and the plan was never to do it all, it was always Stechford to Beechwood Tunnel. I suspect you wouldnt even need that much.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Given some relatively modest upgrades (more double track Cov to Leamington, speed increases/headway reductions on Nuneaton to Coventry) there are already opportunities to run XC services down the Trent Valley then down Nuneaton/Coventry/Leamington. In a previous RUS, it was even suggested that Chiltern might be interested. It would be much faster for places north of Stafford to go that route rather than via Brum although there are the issues of going from the up TV line to Cov line and crossing Coventry station which is a shame as it could offer some useful advantages for diesel now and electric later.

 

[Batman]

I thought the plan with Kenilworth was for it to be served by a stop in the Manchester - Bournmouth service for a few years until the line is electrified and the hourly Birmingham - Coventry stopper is extended to Leamington. The Cross Country stop could then either be eliminated or reduced to peak times only.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the plan with Kenilworth was for it to be served by a stop in the Manchester - Bournmouth service for a few years until the line is electrified and the hourly Birmingham - Coventry stopper is extended to Leamington. The Cross Country stop could then either be eliminated or reduced to peak times only.

I'm sure The Planner has repeatedly mentioned that XC have no intention of serving Kenilworth unless forced to by DfT.

A XC call has always seemed to be more a forum suggestion that a firm proposal.

It is after all LM that have been running trains to test the future timetable.

 

[LesF]

Peter Sargant, head of rail for Centro, said on Monday that Kenilworth station will be in operation 2016 while the electric spine will be around 2020 depending on the progress with other electrification. The Reading-Newcastle XC stops at Willington, a village between Derby and Burton, so why not at Kenilworth?

He also said the delay in re-routing the Reading-Newcastle XC is not due to the single track near Kenilworth as we had always understood, but to congestion Cov-New St. I would hope the extra path needed Cov-New St will not be at the expense of further disruption to the local services, currently with a 20min/40min service.

The only answer is 4-tracking Cov-New St as still proposed by Centro regardless of HS2.

 

[The Planner]

Id check that again. The Newcastle does not stop at Willington. Coventry New St does not need 4 tracking to enable the second XC, a much smaller scheme would allow it. As already mentioned, XC will not stop at Kenilworth....

 

[Batman]

Id check that again. The Newcastle does not stop at Willington. Coventry New St does not need 4 tracking to enable the second XC, a much smaller scheme would allow it. As already mentioned, XC will not stop at Kenilworth....

I always thought that it only required a timetable recast between Birmingham and Coventry to allow a 2nd XC service to run each hour.

In the southbound direction I imagine this would depart New Street at xx33, push the LM Euston service back to xx36 and push the ATW service back to xx39.

The international stopper could be at xx19 with the xx14 service skipping the stops at Stechford and Lea Hall. These stops could be added on to the xx54 service with the following XC service could be pushed back to xx07 now that a Rugeley service no longer uses that path.

Not sure about Northbound timetables though, that's when it could all fall apart.

 

[Class 170101]

Willington station is served by Class 170s running between Cardiff / Birmingham New Street and Nottingham.

 

[LesF]

Id check that again. The Newcastle does not stop at Willington. Coventry New St does not need 4 tracking to enable the second XC, a much smaller scheme would allow it. As already mentioned, XC will not stop at Kenilworth....

Apologies, The Planner, it's a XC that stops at Willington, but not the Newcastle one. My point was that a XC stops at a village with 3000 pop so why not at Kenilworth with 25,000? The 2 minutes lost by stopping would probably be regained by track redoubling, line speed improvements and track revisions at L Spa.
Agreed that 4-tracking Cov-New St is not necessary as one phase; it can be incremental as the traffic builds. A passing loop needs to serve 3 minor stations to allow an express to pass a local without holding it up, as the speed differential of the trains alone is not enough for overtaking. International to Stechford is the busiest bit. Stechford would need grade separation, as will Coventry if the electric spine is to be effective.

 

[edwin_m]

XC has no alternative to stopping at Willington (and Wilnecote and Water Orton) because they are the only operator on this route. Also the 170s that serve these stations have quicker door operation and shorter dwell times than Voyagers.

 

[The Planner]

. My point was that a XC stops at a village with 3000 pop so why not at Kenilworth with 25,000? The 2 minutes lost by stopping would probably be regained by track redoubling, line speed improvements and track revisions at L Spa.

Kenilworth is a new station fund project with a load of cash put in by Warwickshire. Who is going to fund those improvements? It is costing enough to get a crossover put in a Leamington so it can use the bay. XC dont want to stop there as they are a long distance operator and journey time is key to them. That is why Willington is only served on the Nottinghams. Double tracking wont solve anything as they dont get pathed out to allow something coming the other way. Linespeeds are also unlikely to recoup the time loss of 2½-3 minutes.

Agreed that 4-tracking Cov-New St is not necessary as one phase; it can be incremental as the traffic builds. A passing loop needs to serve 3 minor stations to allow an express to pass a local without holding it up, as the speed differential of the trains alone is not enough for overtaking.

Will have to disagree here, as that's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It doesn't need full 4 tracking at all. As I have said a few times now, it was only ever going to be Stechford to Beechwood. You timetable to allow a stopper to be overtaken in a shorter loop. Marston Green to just past Hampton in Arden would do that.

International to Stechford is the busiest bit. Stechford would need grade separation, as will Coventry if the electric spine is to be effective.

Stechford has one path an hour crossing over, and not all of those are used as they are freight, it does not need grade separation in the slightest, just a faster junction with flashing yellows. As for Electric Spine, that still isn't a committed thing.

 

[Techniquest]

Just arrived at this thread, so could someone please catch me up on if there is news on the new stations between Coventry and Nuneaton?

As for 4-tracking Coventry-New Street, I'm pretty sure there's not a lot of room on a large chunk of the route. If memory serves, there would be some on the Up side at Berkswell, but the Down side has all that new housing almost right alongside the railway. I'm not convinced even a passing loop would fit on that side.

Marston Green I can't see any room either without some shifting of car park and bus stops on the Up side, then of course the western end of the runway at Birmingham Airport's on the Down side.

Of course, any capacity increase would be more than welcome!

 

[Trog]

Looking at the fence lines from the train I would suspect that land was bought at some time to allow extra tracks on the north side of the line east of Stechford perhaps to allow the early separation of traffic to Bescot and onto the Grand Junction lines.

 

[LesF]

Trog, land was bought by the rail companies between the wars for 4-tracking. We're still waiting.
Techniquest, Arena and Bermuda stations are under construction. The planned bay plat at Coventry will have to wait. There is no stock available to increase the frequency until electrification elsewhere releases stock. See previous posts on this thread.
According to Centro, only one building needs to be sacrificed to 4-track the bit they want to do. It's an office. They also say that the bridges are ready for 4 tracks at M42, Tile Hill and A46. At A45 there are 2 bridges. The one for the eastbound carriageway that was built when the road was dualled, is suitable for 4 tracks without rebuilding it. The other one is the original 1840's brick arch bridge that Solihull council want to replace. Centro is pressing them to make it span 4 tracks.
People often point to the extreme disruption during the West Coast upgrade in the noughties as evidence that 4-tracking is not on. But the problems with WCRM were due to working on live tracks with short possessions. Where new tracks were added, as in Trent Valley, the work went smoothly because it was offline.

 

[The Planner]

The A45 bridge will be replaced shortly and will be 4 track width.

 

[Techniquest]

Trog, land was bought by the rail companies between the wars for 4-tracking. We're still waiting.
Techniquest, Arena and Bermuda stations are under construction. The planned bay plat at Coventry will have to wait. There is no stock available to increase the frequency until electrification elsewhere releases stock. See previous posts on this thread.
According to Centro, only one building needs to be sacrificed to 4-track the bit they want to do. It's an office. They also say that the bridges are ready for 4 tracks at M42, Tile Hill and A46. At A45 there are 2 bridges. The one for the eastbound carriageway that was built when the road was dualled, is suitable for 4 tracks without rebuilding it. The other one is the original 1840's brick arch bridge that Solihull council want to replace. Centro is pressing them to make it span 4 tracks.
People often point to the extreme disruption during the West Coast upgrade in the noughties as evidence that 4-tracking is not on. But the problems with WCRM were due to working on live tracks with short possessions. Where new tracks were added, as in Trent Valley, the work went smoothly because it was offline.

Thanks for the very useful post, where is that bridge that they want to get rid of?

 

[nuneatonmark]

Re the Coventry to Nuneaton line. Both Bermuda Park and Arena Park stops are in the May timetable. When I went past last week, there was still a lot of construction to do. Is it stands, come May, there will be two more stations but still the lone 153 shuttling back and forth once an hour - not very impressive.

As for 'phase 2' which includes longer, more frequent services and the bay platform. The hold up was money, but the MP for Nuneaton - Marcus Jones confirmed a few months back that central government would fund the 'gap' BUT no schedule has been released as to when it will start.

 

[LesF]

Techniquest, no bridge is to be got rid of. If you mean the A45 bridge that's to be replaced, it's between International and the M42.
Nuneatonmark, you're privileged if you've seen the May timetable. Where is it?

The slow progress on the Cov-Nun upgrade is frustrating but it's worth the wait if we get there in the end. The original "NuCKLe" plan (I hate the acronym, let's call it the Godiva line) had the bay plat at Cov and a flight of steps up to Warwick Road so people alighting there would have to go up the steps, across the road and down the existing steps into the station. This was because of concerns of overcrowding on the narrow part of plat 1 under Warwick Road if passengers from the bay plat used it coming from an event at the Ricoh, such as football fans (all 6 of them?). This has snowballed into a major upgrade of Cov station where passenger numbers have doubled and are forecast to double again. Cov station masterplan is on the Cov and Warks LEP website.

 

[The Planner]

It will be on Real Time Trains. The time taken for the stops will just be taken out the turnaround time, more than likely at Nuneaton.