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Two strikes and you're out....or are you....

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ComUtoR

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- 'the tests are based on science' ; talk about ignorance- this is the most cost-effiective method they can devise- so science is always right is it?- you also have zero facts it bears a relation;

Facts posted. The most cost effect method is NOT to make candidates sit a selection test of this magnitude. The most cost effective method would be not have the tests.

- the best drivers do not necessarily pass- this hardly needs to be explained surely? The people who were best at passing that kind of test were the ones who passed through to the next part....that is all that can be proven;

How can the best Drivers not pass. Your right about proving suitability to the next part and that is part of what the test is designed for. The best Drivers can ONLY be determined by driving trains. You cannot make the statement to say those who do not drive trains are the best drivers because, well, they don't drive trains.

- trains did not run well? Mallard? Guess the drive of the Mallard passed the group bourdon test prior to that famous run....different operation, granted;

I'm sorry if you believe that the good old days were running well and better than today's standards but they weren't. We run a safer railway with more services taking more passengers.

- of course, everyone fills out the application form honestly....

Why lie ? If its only arbitrary and they don't read it then its kinda pointless to lie.

- the tests are arbitrary- that is indisputable- they do not represent railway operations- this is beyond dispute;

So you know this for sure and can prove that. You are an existing Driver and have passed the tests. If it is indisputable they why do they exist ? They exist because those who do the training and work higher up in the industry know that they do prove suitability for the role. I would really like to know why you believe they do not reflect railway operations without actually carrying out railway operations on a day to day basis.


Once again guys and girls who were previously discouraged- and it's easy to see how- just attempt the tests- that's what you need to do- if you fail once or even twice- you can still make it - work on facts- not on claptrap- and yep- like everything else in life...luck comes into it.... GOOD LUCK!

Yes again, feel free to take the tests.

What about skill ? The FACTS are that people WILL fail and that it is very difficult, nearly impossible, to just wing it. The FACT is that the standards have been set and you MUST pass the tests.
 
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To reiterate, if you have failed in the old process- you still have two attempts. ...Blah blah blah... JUST GO FOR IT!

But that has been known for over 2 years! Ever since the new testing have commenced!
You sir have just rediscovered America!
 

Class73

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Not for me, for the others who are discouraged by the self-absorbed claptrap on here-

HAVE ANOTHER GO

Unfortunately some posts on this thread don't understand the use of logic- here it is simply:

By your logic, all MPs are the best for the job. That is not the case as I'm sure we all know...well, if we follow current affairs anyway.

The simple message, yet again and there is no need to reply if you want to take this on board

IF YOU HAVE FAILED- BE CAREFUL WITH THE FORUMS- JUST HAVE ANOTHER GO- AND GOOD LUCK!
 

Rugd1022

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Not for me, for the others who are discouraged by the self-absorbed claptrap on here-

HAVE ANOTHER GO

Unfortunately some posts on this thread don't understand the use of logic- here it is simply:

By your logic, all MPs are the best for the job. That is not the case as I'm sure we all know...well, if we follow current affairs anyway.

The simple message, yet again and there is no need to reply if you want to take this on board

IF YOU HAVE FAILED- BE CAREFUL WITH THE FORUMS- JUST HAVE ANOTHER GO- AND GOOD LUCK!

Self absorbed clap trap...? You really don't get it do you?

Oh the irony... however, I do wish you the best of luck in your application to become a driver. Just do me a favour and stay well away from anywhere on my route card ;)
 

Class73

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Not that tired old childish reply...

Don't be intimidated by people with nothing better to do than to disparage your chances and avoid giving you some encouragement- JUST KEEP GOING- IGNORE THE NONSENSE
 

Dave1987

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Dakta is correct. The tests bear no reality to day to day operation on the railway.

This is why the view peddled by some on here that if you cannot do the tests you should give up and not keep trying is just wrong.

The best drivers are not those who pass the tests. The tests are simply the best way they think they have of trying to ascertain whether or not someone can be a train driver in an hour or two. It's simplistic and irrelevant at best and wildly arbitrary and pointless at worst. But it's quick and painless for the TOCs.

It is a method of reducing the number of applicants.

The message once again, is that if you fail just keep going and you might be ok on the second, or indeed, third time.

I'm gathering you failed the tests twice under the old system and feel very aggrieved by that fact. The fact is yes all people who failed the old tests have two more attempts at the new ones if the TOC wishes to do so. Need I or anyone else point out that the tests have be created by some very clever people to assess whether a candidate has the right attributes to undertake the intensive training and the job itself. If you don't like that fact it's a bit tough I'm afraid. Lambasting people on here for giving out a dose of reality check is going to do nothing in assisting you in your goals.
 

Rugd1022

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Not that tired old childish reply...

Don't be intimidated by people with nothing better to do than to disparage your chances and avoid giving you some encouragement- JUST KEEP GOING- IGNORE THE NONSENSE

Care to answer the two questions I put to you earlier..?

I'm not 'intimidating' anyone or trying to discourage them, far from it in fact, I wish everyone on here the very best of luck, even you, yet you continue to come across as someone who can't or won't answer a direct question that's put to you. Not a good sign if you want to become a train driver (I refer you to my previous point about how you might come across to an interviewer). How would you deal with degraded working, a fire, trespassers, a fatality, a derailment, near misses galore etc...? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Edit : I'm beginning to realise why some folk leave or stay away from this forum for months at a time...
 
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Class73

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You see how it all gathers with the 'I guess you failed stuff'....! Let's stay out of the kindergarten kids and stick with the message..

If you are worried, as many on here are, be careful of the delusions of grandeur and keep going as you might get in next time.....it's not a test for astronauts....

The tests are indisputably arbitrary, although made by 'very clever people', but don't be afraid to try again....that's the message for you guys worrying out there- and be careful of the rubbish!

GOOD LUCK YOU POSITIVE PEOPLE!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Care to answer the two questions I put to you earlier..?

I'm not 'intimidating' anyone or trying to discourage them, far from it in fact, I wish everyone on here the very best of luck, even you, yet you continue to come across as someone who can't or won't answer a direct question that's put to you. Not a good sign if you want to become a train driver (I refer you to my previous point about how you might come across to an interviewer). How would you deal with degraded working, a fire, trespassers, a fatality, a derailment, near misses galore etc...? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Edit : I'm beginning to realise why some folk leave or stay away from this forum for months at a time...

Didn't read the questions, remind me and I'll see what I can do
 

Rugd1022

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You see how it all gathers with the 'I guess you failed stuff'....! Let's stay out of the kindergarten kids and stick with the message..

If you are worried, as many on here are, be careful of the delusions of grandeur and keep going as you might get in next time.....it's not a test for astronauts....

The tests are indisputably arbitrary, although made by 'very clever people', but don't be afraid to try again....that's the message for you guys worrying out there- and be careful of the rubbish!

GOOD LUCK YOU POSITIVE PEOPLE!

A sense of deja vu is kicking in now.... care to actually answer my questions, instead of ingoring them and other poster's concerns altogether...?
 

90019

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You see how it all gathers with the 'I guess you failed stuff'....! Let's stay out of the kindergarten kids and stick with the message..

Are you going to actually answer the questions people have put to you or are you just going to keep babbling on making the same points in every post?
 
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Rugd1022

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You see how it all gathers with the 'I guess you failed stuff'....! Let's stay out of the kindergarten kids and stick with the message..

If you are worried, as many on here are, be careful of the delusions of grandeur and keep going as you might get in next time.....it's not a test for astronauts....

The tests are indisputably arbitrary, although made by 'very clever people', but don't be afraid to try again....that's the message for you guys worrying out there- and be careful of the rubbish!

GOOD LUCK YOU POSITIVE PEOPLE!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Didn't read the questions, remind me and I'll see what I can do

You are now coming across as an angry twelve year old who's had his train set taken away. My questions are on the previous page by the way...
 

Class73

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I can't be bothered going back to look- I don't want to post 1000 messages on a forum.

Unfortunately, some people don't really realise what a debate or a forum means or some of the definitions. That makes it really hard to have a sensible debate.

I put a message of encouragement to those who are wavering or teetering on not trying again- I know people who have given up. But I am saying there is no need- you can pass the tests- then its up to the interview.

The danger with forums is that too much is speculation or misleading or anecdotal or just argumentative as there's nothing better to do.

There was a good bit of advice a few posts ago- get the information you need and don't read the forums- addictions and obsessions are easy to develop. Get the facts.

I was unaware of the regs for the new process, some people are unaware too and might want to try applying again- the message was for those people.
 

Rugd1022

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I can't be bothered going back to look- I don't want to post 1000 messages on a forum.

Unfortunately, some people don't really realise what a debate or a forum means or some of the definitions. That makes it really hard to have a sensible debate.

I put a message of encouragement to those who are wavering or teetering on not trying again- I know people who have given up. But I am saying there is no need- you can pass the tests- then its up to the interview.

The danger with forums is that too much is speculation or misleading or anecdotal or just argumentative as there's nothing better to do.

There was a good bit of advice a few posts ago- get the information you need and don't read the forums- addictions and obsessions are easy to develop. Get the facts.

I was unaware of the regs for the new process, some people are unaware too and might want to try applying again- the message was for those people.

If you can't be bothered then why should anyone else be bothered to read your constant childish replies or point things out to you..?

I never thought I'd ever say this on a railway forum, but I sincerely hope you are never allowed anywhere near the operational side of the network. The only encouragement you need is to grow up a little.

As for 'facts', well, I've pointed a few out to you, as have others, all with good genuine intentions yet you still ignore them, or 'can't be bothered' with them.

This used to be a great place to exchange views and offer advice and encouragement. Sadly this is no longer the case.
 

Class73

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oh dear....the insults have begun...inability to debate methinks.

Give me some of that popcorn!

So its' farewell to Regd as he bows out of the forum.......we'll see...

Psychometric tests are universally questioned as to their validity. This is indisputable.

Therefore, if you remember university or school debating society...

'The tests are arbitrary..' - discuss in less than 2000 posts lol

It's just a debate thats all.

AGAIN, if you are in the situation where you are wondering whether to give up as some have that I know of - DO NOT- BEWARE of the 'grandees' of the forum that will attempt to disparage you- just ignore them.

GOOD LUCK IN THOSE TESTS!!!!
 

Rugd1022

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No 'insult's were fired in your direction, just plain speaking, good advice and genuine interest, that's all. Will you answer any of the specific questions put to you, they are after all, part of the debate...?
 

Class73

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*grabs popcorn*

hahahaha- throw me some of that popcorn!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You are now coming across as an angry twelve year old who's had his train set taken away.

hmmm...seems pretty insulting.

Notice that there are several who are so up tight they can crack walnuts between their cheeks and feel it is their place to decide on your suitability to be on the railway. Such comments as 'hope I don't see you on my route card'.

Ignore these self-appointed arbiters of your suitability to work in the railway industry- and rest assured from what you have read....they really do let all sorts in!
 

Dave1987

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Has anyone on here ever told someone who has failed the previous tests that they shouldn't bother applying again under the new testing regime? The only point I can see that you have made is that you do not believe the tests determine your ability to be a train driver. A lot of people on here would probably agree with that to some degree but it's a fact that you have to pass them. Some of people who do there upmost to pass those tests don't pass out at the end of it so they are not infallible but they do weed the number of candidates down based on aptitude.
 
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GB

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I'm still waiting for an answer on what information has been invented to put people off....

However, and to be honest, I do partly agree the tests are not the be all and end all. We have had people pass the tests but go on to fail the course and also we have had people fail the tests but would have made good drivers. You have also got the situation of all the current ex BR drivers who can do the job perfectly well but many openly state they probably wouldn't have passed the tests if they had to take them.

Also on a side note. I know one person who failed the old tests twice, passed the new test and has been an excellent driver.

However, given the amount of people that apply for drivers jobs you have to have some sort of selection process and you can debate all night long about the merits of psychometrics but no amount of bickering on here will change it.
 

Class73

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I'm still waiting for an answer on what information has been invented to put people off....

However, and to be honest, I do partly agree the tests are not the be all and end all. We have had people pass the tests but go on to fail the course and also we have had people fail the tests but would have made good drivers. You have also got the situation of all the current ex BR drivers who can do the job perfectly well but many openly state they probably wouldn't have passed the tests if they had to take them.

Also on a side note. I know one person who failed the old tests twice, passed the new test and has been an excellent driver.

However, given the amount of people that apply for drivers jobs you have to have some sort of selection process and you can debate all night long about the merits of psychometrics but no amount of bickering on here will change it.

Phew! Some common sense at last!

Noones bickering about it- well at least I'm not....!

Love to answer questions but social life calls.....will return later to see what's left- might have to charge for my time...

good post btw
 

dakta

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I passed the old assessments, only took them once, but got through (which was lucky because few did)

I'll be sitting the new ones (well some of them) next week, I will do my best not to fail, but if I did, I'm wondering how easy it's going to be to tell myself I'm probably not the required standard to be a train driver, given there's some tocs out there that would probably still accept my old pass (current toc application doesn't).

I did find a document online that insinutated that my old pass should be accepted, but i've always beleived this to be a matter of discretion, and it might be that the old test was invalidated completely, though some toc's ive applied for seem to have accepted it.
 
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321446

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Phew. That's my sanity restored. Had a long reply typed out but then researched how to block people on here.

Onward with the discussion Folks!!
 

387star

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I passed the old assessments, only took them once, but got through (which was lucky because few did)

I'll be sitting the new ones (well some of them) next week, I will do my best not to fail, but if I did, I'm wondering how easy it's going to be to tell myself I'm probably not the required standard to be a train driver, given there's some tocs out there that would probably still accept my old pass (current toc application doesn't).

I did find a document online that insinutated that my old pass should be accepted, but i've always beleived this to be a matter of discretion, and it might be that the old test was invalidated completely, though some toc's ive applied for seem to have accepted it.

The old tests were surely tougher due to the mechanics test

Then there was the dtg reactions which killed loads.. Now there's no major killer aside from the dot test
 

90019

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Unfortunately, some people don't really realise what a debate or a forum means or some of the definitions. That makes it really hard to have a sensible debate.

rofl.gif



You owe me a new irony meter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm still waiting for an answer on what information has been invented to put people off....

As am I, but I doubt it'll be forthcoming.
 

dakta

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The old tests were surely tougher due to the mechanics test

Then there was the dtg reactions which killed loads.. Now there's no major killer aside from the dot test

To be honest, I've no idea, there's some aspects of the new tests that sound (from the description) tougher than the old ones. I do hope I am wrong!

Whilst the test is IMO quite functional and succesful in the context of reducing numbers of suitable candidates in a given pool of applicants, its just too shaky for me to be appropriate for deciding who is unlikely to be a good driver 'from this day forward'.

If someone really wants to judge me unsuitable for a role for life, i'd think the tests to be far more intensive and exhaustive. I'd want to do an hours worth of group bourdon and build up a proper meaningful average not just a 'sprint' for a time period so short that the calculated score can be totally thrown off by coughing at a bad time.

Anyway, i'm against the two strikes out policy, I know I can't change it but it's one of those things I'm just not with.
 
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ComUtoR

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dakta. If you have passed with the old system then why didn't you go on to become a Driver ? Did it expire for some reason ?

If you did pass with the old system then are there any TOC's that will still accept that as a pass and why not apply to them ? As you have been through it you can imagine that sitting through it again may cause undue stress.

The tests are designed in such a way that someone who passes once, should pass every time so you should go in with a large degree of confidence. No doubt there is some but I haven't heard people failing the second time with something they managed on the first attempt. Its usually the same part that lets them down.

@ml I thought the old mechanical was gone but there was a new style one. DTG reactions ? was that the coloured dots test with the earphones and pedal ? Did you take both old and new ?
 

dakta

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dakta. If you have passed with the old system then why didn't you go on to become a Driver ? Did it expire for some reason ?

Yeah, I did the one thing you shouldn't do - get disheartened.

I actually got headhunted by a company doing engine performance tuning, so I found myself suddenly very busy in a job I loved, it took all my time, most of personal life too, but I was relatively happy so didn't want to rock the apple cart by trying to shift elsewhere, most people don't get their second choice of a career, let alone their first so I decided to be grateful and whilst i've thrown the odd application in, i've tried to make do in the meantime so ive not applied intensively.

The problem with this is, you should never get used to failure, and you shouldn't get disheartened. I accept not everyone who wants to be a train driver will get to be a train driver, but it'l never happen unless you apply, hence I've had a bit of a re-evaluation and here I am. :/

My first interview was when I was 20, i'm now turning 27 in a week or two, I don't want to waste my life, or anyone elses time, but in those 7 years its always been the number one thing I feel I want to do for a living, so like I say, here I am.

I did actually expect, when i passed the first set of tests, that to be the last time I took them, I remember thinking afterwards 'not likely you'll have to go through that pain again!'. Hmm!
 
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Rugd1022

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hahahaha- throw me some of that popcorn!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You are now coming across as an angry twelve year old who's had his train set taken away.

hmmm...seems pretty insulting.

Notice that there are several who are so up tight they can crack walnuts between their cheeks and feel it is their place to decide on your suitability to be on the railway. Such comments as 'hope I don't see you on my route card'.

Ignore these self-appointed arbiters of your suitability to work in the railway industry- and rest assured from what you have read....they really do let all sorts in!

Again with the irony... :roll:

No insult included in any of my previous posts in this thread, no misleading anecdotes or 'self appointed arbiter' wotnot, just simple statements, well meant advice and opinions based on many years of experience, and above all a good dose of reality.

Just one final missive from me before I nip off to book on for a tidy little ballast job - you may or may not be aware that any potential employer will have checked out your online presence, including everything you've written here. Worth bearing in mind if you are applying for a driving vacancy, as it could well be thrown back at you in an interview situation.

Good luck and toodle ooh.
 

ComUtoR

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Yeah, I did the one thing you shouldn't do - get disheartened.

I know that feeling.

I do see a lot of people applying to take the test but having no intention of then going to be a Driver. I also see a lot of people on here saying they have taken the test but are awaiting the next stage. Or not making it through the DMI stage. TOC recruitment has a lot to answer for. This new talent pool may see a fair number of applicants having their tests expire which is no good for anyone.

My first interview was when I was 20, i'm now turning 27 in a week or two, I don't want to waste my life, or anyone elses time, but in those 7 years its always been the number one thing I feel I want to do for a living, so like I say, here I am.

You got years ahead of you :) I don't know where I stand with old vs young and I see both ends struggling to cope as this dream job often hits you like the proverbial steam train.

When you look back the assessment will pail into insignificance compared to Rules, Traction, Roads, Hours and the constant assessments that have to be done.
 

dakta

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Do you ever think, that might be why people don't get a lot of sympathy off qualified professionals in the industry when it comes to the psychometric tests?

I am as guilty as anyone of having that 'its behind us, onto the next challenge' feeling when i finally became aware i'd gotten through.

Do you think attitudes would be any different, if the psychometric tests were a mandatory 5 year thing, rather than just upon entry? Theoretically, and I somewhat agree, if you can do it once you can do it all the time. But I can see, being somewhat a realist, people would get caught on the hop. two chances only!

Obviously the idea is to test if you can train effectively as a train driver, so it'd a bit moot.

You can look at it in two ways, two chances to pass. However I'll be honest, in my situation which might be a bit unique, but not that uncommon, technically I've two chances to fail :P I'm quite confident I can, but will I? :P

Another thing, and maybe someone will know why, but why does your assessment stop when you fail a particular stage. You only have to retake failed assessments, so why not do the results at the end?
 
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