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Two Together Railcard returns 3 March 2014

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PermitToTravel

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So just to clarify, hopefully a ticketing expert on here can help. If I manage to buy ALR tickets with Two Together discount and sucessfully get them in my hand, can a guard then turn round and tell me they aren't valid?

What would happen then? A ticket irregularity form with the original ticket confiscated? Could I complete a rover with one of these?

The railcard twitter site is very ambiguous and the railcard spokesperson says they are speaking to the TOC's about accepting two together railcards on rovers.

This isn't codified in the contract, so if you are sold the ticket, it's valid.
 
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RJ

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I had a look through all available rovers and rangers to determine their 2TR discount status;

Discount showing as available;
All Line Rover 7/14 Day
Cherwell Didcot/Oxford/Reading Day Ranger
Chesire Day Ranger
Cotswold 1 Day
Cotswold 3 Day
Coast and Peaks 4 in 8
Cumbria Day Ranger
Cumbria Round Robin
Cumbrian Coast Day Ranger
Dales Rambler
Devon Evening Ranger
Devon Ranger
East Yorkshire Round Robin
East Mids Day Ranger
East Mids Rover/Flexi
FoDC / Flexi
FoSS / Flexi
FOSW / Flexi
Freedom of Scotland
Hadrians Wall Country Line
Heart of England Rover / Flexi
Heart of Wessex Ranger
Kennet Day Ranger
Lakes Day Ranger
Lancashire Day Ranger
Lincolnshire Day Ranger
Looe Valley Explorer
North East Rover / Flexi
North East Round Robin
North West Rover / Flexi
North West Round Robin
North Country Flexi Rover
Oxford Evening Out
Oxfordshire Day Ranger
Ride Cornwall
South Pennines Day Ranger
St Ives Line Day Ranger
Thames Branches Day Ranger
Thames Rover
Tyne & Tees Day Ranger
Valleys Line Day Explorer
West Midlands Day Ranger
Yorkshire Coast Day Ranger

Discount not showing available;
Aintree - Liverpool Rover
Aintree Races Rover
Anglia Plus 3 Days in 7
Anglia Plus Day Ranger
Bicester Village Day Ranger
Bittern Line Family/Senior Ranger
Bittern One Day Ranger
Britrail
Cambrian Coast Evening Family Ranger
Cambrian Coaster Day Ranger
Cambrian Coaster Family Day Ranger
Central Scotland Rover
Cherwell Didcot/Oxford/Reading Family Day Ranger
Child All Day ticket
Dales Rambler Family
Dartmoor Sunday Rover
Dartmoor Sunday Rover Family
Daysave Day/Flexi/Week
Daysave TB/TBM/TM
Daytripper Exchange
Derbyshire Wayfarer From Nottingham/Beeston
Derbyshire Wayfarer / Group
Explore North Wales Flexi
Explore South Wales Flexi
Explore Wales Flexi
Freedom of Bristol (All zones)
Freedom of the Coastway
Glasgow Conference Rover
GM Concession Wayfarer
GM Evening/Group Wayfarer
GM Rail Ranger
GM Wayfarer
Go Staff Pass (All zones)
Highland Rover
Heart of Wales Circular Ranger
Island Line Day Ranger / Family
Kent Rover
Lakes Family Day Ranger
Merseyrail Family Day Ticket
Moorslink Day Ranger / Family
M Travel Saveaway (All zones)
Network 1 Day
Network Daytripper / Family
North Downs Day Ranger
North Wales All Zone
Northern Family and Friends
Red Rover
Ride Cornwall Family
Shakespeare Explorer / Family
South Yorkshire Railmaster
South Yorkshire Travelmaster
Southend Bus Rover
St Ives Day Group / Family
Valley Night Rider
West Wales Day Ranger
West Yorkshire Day Rover
West Yorkshire Family Day Rover
West Yorkshire Train Day Rover
West Midlands Family Day Ranger
Wherry Line Ranger / Family / Senior
Yorkshire Coast Family Ranger
 
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185

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Was being asked about this today. I can't believe most of the info on here isn't....

1. On Toc's websites
2. On ATOCs website or the retail intranet
3. On the TTR ATOC website
4. BR Fares


As said in previous threads, it's like they want it to fail.
 

RJ

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Was being asked about this today. I can't believe most of the info on here isn't....

1. On Toc's websites
2. On ATOCs website or the retail intranet
3. On the TTR ATOC website
4. BR Fares


As said in previous threads, it's like they want it to fail.

Has it been fed back to them though?
 

Paul Kelly

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BRFares is not an official source.
It uses official data though - but is not updated between National Fares Manual (NFM) changeover dates. It's just very weird that this railcard has been introduced right in the middle of an NFM period rather than at a changeover date in January, May or September. As far as I know the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement requires new permanent fares to only be introduced at NFM changeover dates; I wonder why this doesn't apply to new railcards, since this in effect results in lots of new fares being available. I'm sure this has caused things to be less clear than it should have been; the introduction does not seem to have been as well thought through as it could be given the length of time the railcard has been in gestation!
 

RJ

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Finally had my first request for a 2TR ticket this weekend! However, the customers wanted an inboundary Zone 1-6 Travelcard, so they were out of luck. Like Groupsave, it's only available with Travelcards if they're outboundary!
 

Hadders

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Did the customer realise that out that an out-boundary travelcard from a station just outside the boundary with the 2TR discount applied would be cheaper than an undiscounted inboundary travelcard ;)
 

BHXDMT

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I had a look through all available rovers and rangers to determine their 2TR discount status;

Further to your post, ATOC have issued a further brief on which Rovers/Rangers have 2 Together discount.

Rovers/Rangers which have 2 Together discount are;

All Line Rover 7 Days
All Line Rover 14 Days
Anglia Plus 3-in-7 Flexi Rover
Anglia Plus Day Ranger
Atlantic Coast Line Ranger
Cambrian Coaster Day Ranger
Central Scotland Rover
Cherwell Valley Ranger Didcot
Cherwell Valley Ranger Oxford
Cherwell Valley Ranger Reading
Cheshire Day Ranger
Coast and Peak 4 in 8 Day Rover
Cumbria Day Ranger
Cumbria Round Robin
Cumbrian Coast Day Ranger
Dales Rambler Day Ranger
Devon Day / Evening Ranger
East Midlands Day Ranger
East Midlands Day Rover
East Midlands Rover
East Yorkshire Round Robin
Explore North & Mid Wales Flexi Rover
Explore South Wales Flexi Rover
Explore Wales Flexipass
Freedom of Devon & Cornwall 3 in 7
Freedom of Devon & Cornwall 8 in 15
Freedom of North East 4 in 8
Freedom of North East 7 day
Freedom of North West 4 in 8
Freedom of North West 7 day
Freedom of Scotland Travelpass 4 in 8
Freedom of Scotland Travelpass 8 in 15
Freedom of Severn & Solent 3 in 7
Freedom of Severn & Solent 8 in 15
Freedom of South West 3 in 7
Freedom of South West 8 in 15
Hadrians Wall Day Ranger
Heart of England 3 in 7
Heart of England 7 Day
Heart of Wales Circular Day Ranger
Heart of Wessex Day Ranger
Highland Rover 4 in 8
Kennet Day Ranger
Lakes Day Ranger
Lancashire Day Ranger
Lincolnshire Day Ranger
Looe Valley Explorer
Maritime Line Ranger
North Country 4 in 8 Rover
North Downs Day Ranger
North East Round Robin
North Wales Rover
North West Round Robin
Oxford Evening Out
Oxfordshire Day Ranger
Ride Cornwall
Shakespeare Explorer 1 Day
Shakespeare Explorer 4 Days
South Pennines Day Ranger
St Ives Bay Line Ranger
Tamar Valley Line Ranger
Tarka Line Ranger
Thames Branches Day Ranger
Thames Rover 3 day
Thames Rover 7 day
Tyne & Tees Day Ranger
West Midlands Day Ranger
West Wales Day Ranger
Yorkshire Coast Day Ranger

And Sleeper Tickets where the passenger boards the train before 0430.
 

Be3G

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Further to your post, ATOC have issued a further brief on which Rovers/Rangers have 2 Together discount.

Rovers/Rangers which have 2 Together discount are;

All Line Rover 7 Days
All Line Rover 14 Days

[…]

And Sleeper Tickets where the passenger boards the train before 0430.

Hooray! Thanks for the information.
 

Shempz

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Did the customer realise that out that an out-boundary travelcard from a station just outside the boundary with the 2TR discount applied would be cheaper than an undiscounted inboundary travelcard ;)


...or did RJ helpfully suggest that to them? :)
 

Polarbear

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On the subject of discounted rover tickets, would I be correct in assuming that rovers purchased with the Two Together RC would not be valid for travel before 09:30 on weekdays?

If so, it would seem to be rather badly thought out given that most rail rovers start to be available around 08:45 - 09:00.

A 09:30 bar would also limit the usefulness of an All Line Rover too.
 

hairyhandedfool

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You would not be able to use a Two Together discounted ticket between 0430 and 0930 on a weekday as that is part of the conditions attached to having the discounted ticket.
 
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transmanche

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On the subject of discounted rover tickets, would I be correct in assuming that rovers purchased with the Two Together RC would not be valid for travel before 09:30 on weekdays?

If so, it would seem to be rather badly thought out given that most rail rovers start to be available around 08:45 - 09:00.
It's no different in principle to buying Travelcards with a Network Railcard.

Off-peak Travelcards are valid from 09:30 (or earlier), but those bought with a Network Railcard are not valid until 10:00.
 

RJ

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You would not be able to use a Two Together discounted ticket between 0430 and 0930 on a weekday as that is part of the conditions attached to having the discounted ticket.

Indeed and the brief regarding the discount with Rovers and Rangers clarifies this;

...

Two Together Railcard discounts have been added to a number of Rovers and Rangers.

...

In all cases, the morning peak restriction on using a Two Together Railcard applies.

...

There have also been some requests for clarification of the morning peak restriction. Two Together Railcard discounted tickets cannot be used before 0930. The restriction is timed for trains scheduled to depart from 0430 to 0929 (inclusive) Mondays to Fridays. Therefore if a train is scheduled to depart at 0930 a Two Together Railcard discounted ticket will be valid. The morning peak restriction does not apply on weekends or public holidays.
 
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island

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On the subject of discounted rover tickets, would I be correct in assuming that rovers purchased with the Two Together RC would not be valid for travel before 09:30 on weekdays?

If so, it would seem to be rather badly thought out given that most rail rovers start to be available around 08:45 - 09:00.

A 09:30 bar would also limit the usefulness of an All Line Rover too.

Unless some easement is in place or the sleeper rule applies, then yes, you cannot use a rover with a Two Together Railcard discount on weekdays before 0930.
 

Polarbear

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Thanks to all for clarifying the position regarding the 09:30 bar with Rover tickets. The collective expertise on here is much appreciated! :D

It's a good job this forum exists to clarify such matters as to date, I've found that the guidance provided by publicity available in the public domain is woeful to say the least. It's almost as though the original intention was to exclude Rovers from the Two Together railcard & that they've been added into the offer at the last minute?

Thanks again.
 

RJ

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Did the customer realise that out that an out-boundary travelcard from a station just outside the boundary with the 2TR discount applied would be cheaper than an undiscounted inboundary travelcard ;)

...or did RJ helpfully suggest that to them? :)

I wouldn't do any such thing I'm afraid! Having gotten to understand and empathise with the customers since I started selling tickets in 2010, I have my reasons for this;

1. Customers ask for a ticket and trust the clerk to sell them the most appropriate ticket for their journey. To this end, many do not examine the ticket, but will remember the price. If the clerk complicates matters by selling a non standard fare, it causes problems for the next clerk when the customer expects to pay the same price, but doesn't know what to ask for. Selling a ticket from a different station adds a layer of unnecessary complexity which not all people will understand.

2. It reduces the potential for conflict with ticket inspection staff. Customers pay for their ticket and want no further hassle with it.

3. Sound advice has been provided for retail staff to sell the simplest and cheapest ticket for a customer's journey. I think it was in the Retail Standards Guide, which I can't seem to access directly online any more :(.

Customers who are intent of saving generally do their own research. That may involve them catching onto some loophole online or through word of mouth then coming and asking me about it. I'm always happy to explain things that people have asked about specifically. However, I never volunteer any information or sell odd tickets that have the potential to cause confusion. Unless of course, the customer asks specifically for them and demonstrates that they know what they're doing.
 
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David Goddard

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Customers who are intent of saving generally do their own research. That may involve them catching onto some loophole online or through word of mouth then coming and asking me about it. I'm always happy to explain things that people have asked about specifically. However, I never volunteer any information or sell odd tickets that have the potential to cause confusion. Unless of course, the customer asks specifically for them and demonstrates that they know what they're doing.

Thanks for that. Can you confirm that in these instances, a clerk is obliged to sell the ticket that the customer asks for? That was how I understand it.
For example there is a loophole that am aware of which I use, but have recently have had to start buying it online and collecting from a TVM because certain members of ticket office staff have refused to sell it to me.
 

island

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This discussion has been had a number of times and usually ends up going around in circles with some members saying a clerk is obliged to sell whatever ticket is requested (marking it "restrictions advised" if they think it is not valid for immediate travel) and others saying that a clerk is not obliged to sell a ticket which is obviously going to be used in a non-permitted manner.
 

yorksrob

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I buy tickets at all sorts of odd times from when I actually intend to travel. After advising on the validity of said ticket, I don't see why any clerk would be allowed to refuse to sell a ticket.
 

Haywain

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This discussion has been had a number of times and usually ends up going around in circles with some members saying a clerk is obliged to sell whatever ticket is requested (marking it "restrictions advised" if they think it is not valid for immediate travel) and others saying that a clerk is not obliged to sell a ticket which is obviously going to be used in a non-permitted manner.
And even if they are obliged to sell a ticket, how do you force an unwilling clerk to meet that obligation?
 

bb21

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And even if they are obliged to sell a ticket, how do you force an unwilling clerk to meet that obligation?

Exactly. I have asked the exact same question before in debates where some people insist that they should be sold what they ask for, but never got a response to it.

Good luck forcing a sale I say.

(Yes, I understand all the arguments about staff potentially doing themselves out of a job as people switch to buying online, but that has no bearing on the issue in hand whatsoever if one finds himself in such a situation.)
 

RJ

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If someone at a ticket office rightly or wrongly doesn't want to sell something, there is no way of forcing them. I'm sure a refusal to issue a certain ticket for immediate travel would invoke Condition 3 of the NRCoC.

Sometimes, I work within the London Zones in Zone 5 or 6, but the discounts available on journeys within London and involving Zone 1 are very restrictive.

A couple bought a 2T railcard then asked for a return to Finsbury Park. This didn't even require use of the Underground, but it came up to over £10 - for each person! Imagine how it went down when I said it'd be cheaper to get One Day Travelcards, for which they weren't entitled to a discount!

A national railcard is a fantastic development, but I wonder if anything can be done to make it more attractive for leisure travellers within London?

In other news, there are reportedly issues at some ticket offices with the TIS systems unable to process 2TR discounted Advance fare sales.
 
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hassaanhc

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I wouldn't do any such thing I'm afraid! Having gotten to understand and empathise with the customers since I started selling tickets in 2010, I have my reasons for this;

1. Customers ask for a ticket and trust the clerk to sell them the most appropriate ticket for their journey. To this end, many do not examine the ticket, but will remember the price. If the clerk complicates matters by selling a non standard fare, it causes problems for the next clerk when the customer expects to pay the same price, but doesn't know what to ask for. Selling a ticket from a different station adds a layer of unnecessary complexity which not all people will understand.

2. It reduces the potential for conflict with ticket inspection staff. Customers pay for their ticket and want no further hassle with it.

3. Sound advice has been provided for retail staff to sell the simplest and cheapest ticket for a customer's journey. I think it was in the Retail Standards Guide, which I can't seem to access directly online any more :(.

Random question: If someone wanted tickets for two adults and one child and it was cheaper to have three adult tickets with GS3 discount, which one would you sell?
This links to both 1. And 3. where the other day my uncle wanted a Southall-Windsor&EtonCentral return for 2 adults and 1 child, which he thought was the case until I saw the tickets. When I pointed out they were three adult tickets he initially got concerned until I told him that it was £3 cheaper this way due to the GS3 discount giving them three adult tickets for the price of two. The price on them was slightly misleading too as the normal price was around £6 each but with the discount the tickets were showing £3.95 on them (he was surprised how a return for Southall-Slough which is shorter is more expensive until I explained what they'd done).
 

hairyhandedfool

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.....3. Sound advice has been provided for retail staff to sell the simplest and cheapest ticket for a customer's journey. I think it was in the Retail Standards Guide, which I can't seem to access directly online any more :(....

Best I could find in 30 seconds....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/105629559/ATOC-Retail-Standards-Guide-v6

The actual 'rules' are in the TSA, but, as has been proved on this forum, there are differing interpretations to it and the RSG is ATOCs way of trying to say what it would like to see happening.

Random question: If someone wanted tickets for two adults and one child and it was cheaper to have three adult tickets with GS3 discount, which one would you sell?....

A clerk should offer to sell the cheapest available through fare that is valid for the journey being made. A child can travel on an 'adult' ticket, so, if the GS3 ticket fits the bill, that should be offered.
 

island

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In other news, there are reportedly issues at some ticket offices with the TIS systems unable to process 2TR discounted Advance fare sales.

I wonder is that because they are not dropping two tickets in the basket at once? If you try to do them one at a time it won't give the discount.
 

leeklad

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Hi.

Recently posted message to Railcard Help (concerning Two Together) explaining that my son and I often use the same train travelling to away football matches, but that he occasionally then finds friends who are more interesting company than his father so nips off down the coach for a natter.

Got a very quick reply - on Easter Monday!! - very impressed. However the reply seems to duck my main question which was to query the definition of "together" - do we need to be adjacent physically or merely on the same train(s) for the entire journey.

Here's the reply:

In regards to your query I would advise that it would be best if you were to sit together to prevent any issues. The guard would require to see the Railcard to accept the tickets and if your son is not able to provide the Railcard when providing his ticket to the guard it may cause an issue.

This issue can also be addressed with the operator you are travelling with to confirm this with them however I would recommend sitting with each other to provide the tickets.


I wonder if anyone on this board is able to shed any further light on this question, perhaps from experiences in the pilot.

Thanks.
 

bb21

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As long as you are on the same train I cannot see any major issue.

If the guard wants to ensure that you are indeed travelling together, you can always call him back.
 
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