• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Twyford Tfl Rail Delay

Status
Not open for further replies.

jacksonbang

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2016
Messages
70
I was caught up in the exciting new timetable roll out at Twyford yesterday and ended up being 40 minutes late into Paddington. I aimed to catch a Tfl service that was cancelled along with the next 2 or 3.

After considerable effort I found the delay compensation option on Tfl website but no option for Twyford Station.

Does anyone have any advice for this?

Thanks.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
I was caught up in the exciting new timetable roll out at Twyford yesterday and ended up being 40 minutes late into Paddington. I aimed to catch a Tfl service that was cancelled along with the next 2 or 3.

After considerable effort I found the delay compensation option on Tfl website but no option for Twyford Station.

Does anyone have any advice for this?

Thanks.
Opps, seems the system has not update yet.
I would suggest you to call in TfL hotline for delay refund, or to send a webform contact (through "complaints" to TfL Rail)
Also, it would be best to tell them to update the system.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,936
This of course raises the point that TFL compensation is far less generous than National Rail Delay Repay. 30 min instead of 15 min and loads of exclusions.
 

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
This of course raises the point that TFL compensation is far less generous than National Rail Delay Repay. 30 min instead of 15 min and loads of exclusions.
It is quite a "downgrade", which doesn't suit the promise of TfL for improvements
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
It is quite a "downgrade", which doesn't suit the promise of TfL for improvements

TfL Rail hasn't been impressive so far with a few problems, including communication during disruption, delay compensation and service recovery etc.
 
Last edited:

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,027
Location
West Wiltshire
Opps, seems the system has not update yet.
I would suggest you to call in TfL hotline for delay refund, or to send a webform contact (through "complaints" to TfL Rail)
Also, it would be best to tell them to update the system.

Wasn't it advertised as TfL rail taking over from 15 Dec, but TfL fares will not apply until fares change 2 Jan
Therefore presumably it is still existing fares compensation until 1 Jan

Am I missing something ?
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
Wasn't it advertised as TfL rail taking over from 15 Dec, but TfL fares will not apply until fares change 2 Jan
Therefore presumably it is still existing fares compensation until 1 Jan

Am I missing something ?

But the ToC is TfL Rail so their compensation arrangement applies, likewise if it was a GWR service then their Delay Repay scheme would apply.
 

jacksonbang

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2016
Messages
70
This is the response I got from Tfl. I had no idea signalling issues were not included in compensation payouts.

"From 07:02, as you may be aware we had severe delays and train cancellations / suspensions on TfL Rail services due to signalling problems in the Slough area.

The Slough area / signalling systems is managed and owned by Network Rail.

Under our service delay refund scheme (SDR), if customers have been delayed for 30 minutes or more for reasons within our control, we'll refund the single cost of the disrupted journey.

We're not liable for third party action such as security alerts, person ill on train, adverse weather or Network Rail problems.

I'm sorry that my answer wasn't more favourable."
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,504
This is the response I got from Tfl. I had no idea signalling issues were not included in compensation payouts.

"From 07:02, as you may be aware we had severe delays and train cancellations / suspensions on TfL Rail services due to signalling problems in the Slough area.

The Slough area / signalling systems is managed and owned by Network Rail.

Under our service delay refund scheme (SDR), if customers have been delayed for 30 minutes or more for reasons within our control, we'll refund the single cost of the disrupted journey.

We're not liable for third party action such as security alerts, person ill on train, adverse weather or Network Rail problems.

I'm sorry that my answer wasn't more favourable."
What? network rail are contracted to provide signalling services to TfL rail so I would argue the delay is the fault of their contractors. It would be like arguing that driver shortages are not TfL's fault because they have contracted the operation to MTR
 

packermac

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
543
Location
Swanage
What network rail are contracted to provide signalling services to TfL rail so I would argue the delay is the fault of their contractors.
I guess it is down to each TOC to include or exclude what they want. Although I have not finished yet I started to download all the a couple of months ago in free moments I started downloading the various passenger charters, specifically to review in respect of cancelations in relation to delay repay. Major differences, so this does not surprise me at all.
 

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
I guess it is down to each TOC to include or exclude what they want. Although I have not finished yet I started to download all the a couple of months ago in free moments I started downloading the various passenger charters, specifically to review in respect of cancelations in relation to delay repay. Major differences, so this does not surprise me at all.
I think the case worth a escalation to London Travelwatch if appeal is not successful.
Also worth mentioning the downgrade of passenger welfare for delays for services transferred from GWR to TfL.

Once again, TfL Rail and London Overground should be forced by DfT to operate a Delay Repay system in line with other TOCs, on top of what they do for delay refund (which is inferior)
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,504
I guess it is down to each TOC to include or exclude what they want. Although I have not finished yet I started to download all the a couple of months ago in free moments I started downloading the various passenger charters, specifically to review in respect of cancelations in relation to delay repay. Major differences, so this does not surprise me at all.
I would class signal failures as unambiguously within the responsibility of the TOC or its contractors.
 

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
I would class signal failures as unambiguously within the responsibility of the TOC or its contractors.
Indeed, and for delay repays by all TOCs, they will pay out for any reasons (whether it is within their control).
Seems TfL Delay Refund system is a interferior one (only pays out things fully within their control).

I am sure that TfL do cash some compensation from Network Rail for signal failure.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
I thought DfT were standardising Delay Repay across TOCs? Under the scenario outlined in this thread there now appears to be an incentive during times of disruption at Twyford for passengers to use GWR services rather than TfL Rail!
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,504
I thought DfT were standardising Delay Repay across TOCs? Under the scenario outlined in this thread there now appears to be an incentive during times of disruption at Twyford for passengers to use GWR services rather than TfL Rail!
TfL rail services are devolved to the gla not the national franchising system run by the DFT.
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,504
Yet if you live in Twyford you can't vote in the GLA elections.
If you live in Euston you can't vote in the Scottish assembly elections, that doesn't prevent the Caledonian sleeper being a devolved service. Or the transport for Wales services being devolved to the Welsh government which go into Birmingham and other English location s
 

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
Yet if you live in Twyford you can't vote in the GLA elections.
There's always a debate regarding to TfL not accountable to people out of Greater London.
Anyway, we now get a valid case to London Travelwatch about the inferior (or downgraded) delay repay (compare to other TOCs) issue to London Travelwatch.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
I think the case worth a escalation to London Travelwatch if appeal is not successful.
Also worth mentioning the downgrade of passenger welfare for delays for services transferred from GWR to TfL.

Once again, TfL Rail and London Overground should be forced by DfT to operate a Delay Repay system in line with other TOCs, on top of what they do for delay refund (which is inferior)

Agreed, also it might be worth escalating this to your MP, the more people that do this the better, then TfL might be forced to implement Delay Repay
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
There's always a debate regarding to TfL not accountable to people out of Greater London.
Anyway, we now get a valid case to London Travelwatch about the inferior (or downgraded) delay repay (compare to other TOCs) issue to London Travelwatch.

I wonder if this was an issue over on the eastern side where TfL took over from Greater Anglia? Excluding delays caused by NR is not on in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
I don't see there's any mileage in making a complaint to London Travelwatch about the ridiculous delay compensation policy that TfL have on their rail services. The only compensation they must offer, for as long as TfL Rail and London Overground remain part of the National Rail network and apply the NRCoT, is 50% of the relevant portion of the ticket for 60+ minute delays. Whether they choose to have a policy of offering compenastion beyond that, is sometjing entirely within TfL's discretion.

However, the facts are that TfL have chosen to promise compensation (they confusingly call it a refund) of 100% of the fare paid for journeys within the London PAYG area, if you are delayed by 30+ minutes on a TfL Rail/LO service. But they limit this to causes "within our control".

Signalling failure is most definitely within their control - after all, signalling is an inherent part of the safe and normal operation of the railway, and they pay Network Rail for access to the tracks, which includes the requisite operation of the signalling.

Sothe operation of the signalling is something they have, from the viewpoint of the consumer, decided to outsource to a third party - no different to how the operation of the trains and stations themselves (in terms of staff) is outsourced to private companies like Arriva and MTR, and how the manufacture and maintenance of the trains is outsourced to Bombardier and so on.

No-one could credibly suggest that a failure to have sufficient serviceable trains to operate the service would be something outside of TfL's control, despite it being something they are not literally themselves doing (having outsourced it). Neither would it be credible to say it's outside their control if they don't have enough drivers. A signalling failure is no different. The fact that there's a monopoly on tracks and signalling is neither here nor there - it's an outsourced part of the operation!

It's rather rich for TfL to take this approach in any case, as they (or their contracted operator) will be handsomely compensated by Network Rail for a signalling failure such as this. Of course TfL may well disagree with paying the owed compensation in this case, but then of course they would. After all, they're the ones potentially losing the ability to profit over your misery, and they're currently quite tight up financially.

Given we are talking about a Twyford to Paddington journey, the relevant portion of the fare is likely to be rather greater than for a Zone 1 Underground journey. So I wouldn't think it necessarily disproportionate to consider the option of Court action if they continue to refuse what they owe.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,504
TfL get to double dip on signal failures , my understanding is that tfl receive the compensation from network rail and they also receive fine revenue from MTR to incentivise service recovery.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
After considerable effort I found the delay compensation option on Tfl website but no option for Twyford Station.
I wonder if it has changed since Tuesday, but the web page now says, "If you're claiming a refund for a delay on TfL Rail and can't see your station in the list, call us on 0343 222 1234."

This of course raises the point that TFL compensation is far less generous than National Rail Delay Repay. 30 min instead of 15 min and loads of exclusions.
Yes, 30 mins delay before you can claim instead of 15 mins. But a full refund as opposed to a 25% refund (for 15 mins) or 50% refund (for 30 mins) under GWR's scheme.

This is the response I got from Tfl. I had no idea signalling issues were not included in compensation payouts.
That does seem to be incorrect. Especially as on London Underground or DLR, a similar signalling issue would qualify for a refund. Normally, such refunds are paid if the "rail industry" is at fault, rather than just solely the operator.

I suspect that the person dealing with your refund has misunderstood the rules. I'd suggest giving the helpline a call.
 

packermac

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
543
Location
Swanage
Sothe operation of the signalling is something they have, from the viewpoint of the consumer, decided to outsource to a third party - no different to how the operation of the trains and stations themselves (in terms of staff) is outsourced to private companies like Arriva and MTR, and how the manufacture and maintenance of the trains is outsourced to Bombardier and so on.

.
Not sure TFL chose NR as a contractor for signalling it is what you are given by the government. It is not true outsourcing in say the way MTR is. It is like saying BA outsources to NATS for all its flights within UK airspace. In both cases you get what you are given.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
Not sure TFL chose NR as a contractor for signalling it is what you are given by the government. It is not true outsourcing in say the way MTR is. It is like saying BA outsources to NATS for all its flights within UK airspace. In both cases you get what you are given.
The kind of outsourcing doesn't really make a difference legally though - ultimately, from the customer's perspective, they have entered a contract for carriage with TfL('s operator). How they decide to perform their obligation of carriage is up to them, be that by train, bus, taxi or horseback. If the method of transport is sufficiently late compared to the advertised timetable then compensation is due. Only for "force majeure" events is this not the case - the examples given in the Conditions do not include anything within the rail industry's responsibility. Only things like security alerts and customer incidents are exemplified.

I'm sure this is just a first-level customer service person rejecting a claim for an invalid reason, as seems ever so common nowadays. But it's still no more acceptable than a person travelling with a ticket for an invalid reason. For as long as this imbalance persists I'll continue to view all TOCs who engage in sharp practices like this as two-faced.
 

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
The kind of outsourcing doesn't really make a difference legally though - ultimately, from the customer's perspective, they have entered a contract for carriage with TfL('s operator). How they decide to perform their obligation of carriage is up to them, be that by train, bus, taxi or horseback. If the method of transport is sufficiently late compared to the advertised timetable then compensation is due. Only for "force majeure" events is this not the case - the examples given in the Conditions do not include anything within the rail industry's responsibility. Only things like security alerts and customer incidents are exemplified.

I'm sure this is just a first-level customer service person rejecting a claim for an invalid reason, as seems ever so common nowadays. But it's still no more acceptable than a person travelling with a ticket for an invalid reason. For as long as this imbalance persists I'll continue to view all TOCs who engage in sharp practices like this as two-faced.
I think TfL may not have specifically trained customer service officer for national rail-side delays, and hence cause such a "basic" problem
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
15,982
Location
0036
The kind of outsourcing doesn't really make a difference legally though - ultimately, from the customer's perspective, they have entered a contract for carriage with TfL('s operator). How they decide to perform their obligation of carriage is up to them, be that by train, bus, taxi or horseback. If the method of transport is sufficiently late compared to the advertised timetable then compensation is due.
Indeed. “Sufficiently late” in this instance is one hour, as defined in the contract (the NRCoT). The OP was 40 minutes late.

Whilst most TOCs have chosen to compensate passengers who are 15 minutes late for any reason in their published customer charters/DelayRepay policies, TfL Rail has not.
 

hkstudent

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
1,357
Location
SE London
Indeed. “Sufficiently late” in this instance is one hour, as defined in the contract (the NRCoT). The OP was 40 minutes late.

Whilst most TOCs have chosen to compensate passengers who are 15 minutes late for any reason in their published customer charters/DelayRepay policies, TfL Rail has not.
As TOCs are required to run delay repay scheme as required by franchise agreement, but not TfL.
For example, Southeastern was required to run a 15-minute delay repay scheme (from the old 30-minute delay repay) at the short franchise extension early this year.

It frustrating that despite TfL claimed they can run better than private train companies, they seems not running well in customer protection (especially for delay repay and may be stranded passenger assistance). A "downgrade" from what GWR was offering.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top