Tyne and Wear Metro

[ModernRailways]

I see that this Tyne and Wear Metro master thread has now been running for over three years. Congratulations on this.

It has been the inspiration for quite a number of threads that enable various light rail projects to set up their own dedicated master threads.

It was a Tyne and Wear Refurbishment thread until last week. The content had just become about anything Metro so I sent a message to the Mods asking if it could be changed to 'Tyne and Wear Metro Master Thread'. They changed it, and it seems some others have also changed, although I don't really frequent this part of the forum, just wait for the notification for this specific thread.

Always good to see new people getting involved though, can sometimes help add a more passenger approach instead of enthusiast/railway employee.
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3rd service suspension between Heworth and Monument this month due to a failed train, getting beyond laughable now and you start to wonder what on earth are Nexus/DBTW going to do about it. Can't use the weather as a back up now. I think Im right in saying there must of been about 4 unplanned service suspensions in the last 2 weeks, worrying times.

I too want to see what Nexus/DB will do. It's too often now, although to give Metro their due, today the buses they had out and the buses tickets were accepted on was great! Plenty of buses to keep people moving and I bet that didn't come cheap! Metro frontline staff as always helping people out. Drivers however still no announcements. I was stuck in the tunnel before Central for 5 minutes without a single word from the driver. So many people started panicking because they had no information as to what was happening. Thankfully I managed to find out by checking on my phone and told a few people near me a train had failed somewhere and that soon spread through the carriage.

I do wish Metro would implement a rule like London Underground whereby drivers must make an announcement if after 30 seconds (maybe 1 minute on Metro) the train still hasn't started moving even if it's just to say 'We are being held at a red signal, I'm trying to contact my Control to find what's happening. Sorry for the delay.'

 

[142094]

I do wish Metro would implement a rule like London Underground whereby drivers must make an announcement if after 30 seconds (maybe 1 minute on Metro) the train still hasn't started moving even if it's just to say 'We are being held at a red signal, I'm trying to contact my Control to find what's happening. Sorry for the delay.'

The Rule Book states that a driver should only make an announcement when it is safe to do so. In many cases, especially during the morning/evening peak, a train will be held to allow the one in front to clear the station ahead (usually caused by a lot of people getting on a say South Shields train and the one behind travelling short to Pelaw). If this was to be announced every time it happened, you'd have to make an awful lot of announcements each day.

Add to this the problems in contacting control - when there is disruption, the priority should be dealing with the driver of the failed train, and seeing as there are only a limited number of system controllers, if every driver was to radio in, then it would be chaos. Plus, no point in control sending out an all trains message until they actually know what is going on, and how long the delay is likely to be.
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I see that this Tyne and Wear Metro master thread has now been running for over three years. Congratulations on this.

It has been the inspiration for quite a number of threads that enable various light rail projects to set up their own dedicated master threads.

Aye, a lot has happened in those three years as well. Interesting to go back and read things and see how it compares to today.

 

[transmanche]

I do wish Metro would implement a rule like London Underground whereby drivers must make an announcement if after 30 seconds (maybe 1 minute on Metro) the train still hasn't started moving even if it's just to say 'We are being held at a red signal, I'm trying to contact my Control to find what's happening. Sorry for the delay.'

In many cases, especially during the morning/evening peak, a train will be held to allow the one in front to clear the station ahead (usually caused by a lot of people getting on a say South Shields train and the one behind travelling short to Pelaw). If this was to be announced every time it happened, you'd have to make an awful lot of announcements each day.

LU have the 30 second rule mainly to so that passengers are aware there isn't something major wrong. And yes sometimes it will mean the driver has to make a lot of announcements.

In the example above, the driver may be able to work it out without needing to contact control. Similarly heading 'out' at South Gosforth, a simple "We're just being held at a red signal whilst we wait for a train coming from the Airport/going to the coast to cross in front of us" will suffice and reassure passengers that all is normal.

 

[ModernRailways]

LU have the 30 second rule mainly to so that passengers are aware there isn't something major wrong. And yes sometimes it will mean the driver has to make a lot of announcements.

In the example above, the driver may be able to work it out without needing to contact control. Similarly heading 'out' at South Gosforth, a simple "We're just being held at a red signal whilst we wait for a train coming from the Airport/going to the coast to cross in front of us" will suffice and reassure passengers that all is normal.

That was my point exactly. Surely a quick announcement to the passengers won't kill them! A quick announcement before/after they've contacted their controller won't hurt the system and in fact it will probably make it better as people know what's going on instead of just plain panicking.

Surely, informative announcements are better than none or am I alone in thinking that?

 

[Paul_10]

That was my point exactly. Surely a quick announcement to the passengers won't kill them! A quick announcement before/after they've contacted their controller won't hurt the system and in fact it will probably make it better as people know what's going on instead of just plain panicking.

Surely, informative announcements are better than none or am I alone in thinking that?

I think this will be more practical and useful if say a train has stopped at a red signal but it was outside the peak hours as being held at a red signal would more likely to mean there could be a problem ahead. As 142094 pointed out, trains can get held at red signals during the peak times due to increased amount of passengers and trains and i'm sure passengers then won't start get all worrying being held at a red signal for a min or two during the peak because even they will know there will be trains ahead although with all the disruption lately, maybe people are worrying more these days!

I suppose on the other hand, not all passengers will know where the signals are so if a train stops in a tunnel especially then you can see why passengers may start to mutter and wonder what is going on.

 

[142094]

Do passengers need to be constantly told every little thing that goes on, and on a similar line, do they panic at a 30 second delay? I'd expect after a few minutes yes, but 30 seconds isn't exactly all day. As I said before, 90% of the time a delay will be due to waiting for the train ahead. Imagine having to announce that at every station, or even every other station.

 

[transmanche]

Do passengers need to be constantly told every little thing that goes on, and on a similar line, do they panic at a 30 second delay?

As noted above, LU introduced a 30 second policy - and they do tend to research things quite thoroughly before making changes. They obviously feel it's worth the 'effort'...

 

[ModernRailways]

Do passengers need to be constantly told every little thing that goes on, and on a similar line, do they panic at a 30 second delay? I'd expect after a few minutes yes, but 30 seconds isn't exactly all day. As I said before, 90% of the time a delay will be due to waiting for the train ahead. Imagine having to announce that at every station, or even every other station.

Yes, passengers do need to be told. Maybe not after 30 seconds but people do need to know.

As for the peaks I agree. However, a driver still could make an announcement saying 'We're just waiting for the platform to clear at the next station and then we shall be on the move again. Sorry for the delay.'

Will it really kill them to speak? On Saturday I was held at Hebburn, we were waiting for the train to come up from Jarrow, but nobody else knew that. A quick announcement saying 'We're just being held at a red signal whilst we wait for the train from Jarrow to clear the line ahead. Sorry for the delay.' would suffice.

The drivers now don't make any announcements other than the odd 'You don't board the train when the warning tone has sounded.' To me that's wrong since the warning tone is the Metro's version of the hustle alarm meaning get on the train now or stand clear of the doors. If the passenger boarded before the doors closed but during the warning tone then there is no issue.
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Maybe passengers won't notice a 30 second delay but after a minute or so people start wondering, then another minute passes and people want to know why. If an announcement was made at that 30 seconds it stops people from wondering after a minute or two because they know why they've stopped.

 

[Paul_10]

As for the peaks I agree. However, a driver still could make an announcement saying 'We're just waiting for the platform to clear at the next station and then we shall be on the move again. Sorry for the delay.'

Will it really kill them to speak? On Saturday I was held at Hebburn, we were waiting for the train to come up from Jarrow, but nobody else knew that. A quick announcement saying 'We're just being held at a red signal whilst we wait for the train from Jarrow to clear the line ahead. Sorry for the delay.' would suffice.

I disagree, I think there should only be an announcement if there is an unexpected red signal and around wait around 5 mins at least if it has not changed to yellow/green, even if they don't know why the signal has remained on red.

In the case you mentioned above, the driver would probably know why he/she is being held at a red and some passengers may even know why(in this case, to allow the train from Jarrow to arrive in Hebburn so the line is clear) so again unless its around 5 mins and the train still has not arrived or the signal has not changed to green despite the train arriving onto the other platform then perhaps make an announcement.

 

[transmanche]

I disagree, I think there should only be an announcement if there is an unexpected red signal and around wait around 5 mins at least if it has not changed to yellow/green, even if they don't know why the signal has remained on red.

So that's five minutes where most of the passengers will think that the train has broken down. What does that do to passengers' perception of Metro's reliability?

 

[tjohnson86]

Interesting what people are saying about lack of information from drivers, as in my experience if I've been travelling on the Airport/South Hylton line and have been held at a red signal for a couple of minutes or so, the driver actually does make an announcement explaining why the train isn't moving. I agree that drivers should make am announcement if there has been a hold-up for a few minutes, but I dont think people need to know after 30 seconds.

Number of train failures, and service suspensions due to these failures really is worrying, perhaps its a sign of metro showing its age? The upcoming major line closure could actually be a blessing in disguise for the trains due to the lack of peak services, meaning there should hopefully be some spare sets available for if any failures happen during the closure.

In other news 4031 is back in passenger service paired with 4022. Havent heard news of any new retruns/departures. Also I assume there will be nothing leaving or returning from Doncaster while the line closure is in place?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As noted above, LU introduced a 30 second policy - and they do tend to research things quite thoroughly before making changes. They obviously feel it's worth the 'effort'...

30 seconds? Quite a lot of Underground drivers make the red signal announcement as soon as the train comes to a halt only for it to move off again 10 seconds later!

 

[ModernRailways]

I disagree, I think there should only be an announcement if there is an unexpected red signal and around wait around 5 mins at least if it has not changed to yellow/green, even if they don't know why the signal has remained on red.

In the case you mentioned above, the driver would probably know why he/she is being held at a red and some passengers may even know why(in this case, to allow the train from Jarrow to arrive in Hebburn so the line is clear) so again unless its around 5 mins and the train still has not arrived or the signal has not changed to green despite the train arriving onto the other platform then perhaps make an announcement.

As mentioned that's 3 minutes (2 minutes people wouldn't particularly care) of people really starting to wonder. An announcement really wouldn't hurt.

Just because some passengers (or even all) know that the train is waiting for the train from Jarrow shouldn't mean people aren't made aware this is the reason though. It's always better to give some information rather than none at all.

30 seconds? Quite a lot of Underground drivers make the red signal announcement as soon as the train comes to a halt only for it to move off again 10 seconds later!

But people are aware as to why they've stopped. Maybe 10 seconds is a bit early, but when you stop in a tunnel a lot more people start to panic and they do so quicker because it's a tight space. 30 seconds worth of delay goes by ridiculously slowly, compared to when you're moving where you don't realise how long it's taking because you aren't clock watching - unless you're in a hurry.

 

[Paul_10]

So that's five minutes where most of the passengers will think that the train has broken down. What does that do to passengers' perception of Metro's reliability?

From my experience, I just don't see passengers worrying about a slight delay where passengers need an announcement because there is a back log of trains during the peak for example.

Maybe the passengers who do worry are the ones that leave things to the last second to get to work/meetings or whatever.

Maybe 5 mins is a bit of a while to wait before making an announcement but I just think its always best not to worry passengers about delays when in reality its only a slight hold up which won't cause much harm, unless again, your one of those passengers who leave things to the last second.

 

[transmanche]

From my experience, I just don't see passengers worrying about a slight delay[...]

How on earth do you know what people are thinking?!?!?! :roll:

 

[ModernRailways]

How on earth do you know what people are thinking?!?!?! :roll:

Exactly! I don't tell people, but you can tell by how people are acting. They will start looking around, may be sitting up properly, have a puzzled look on their face or could just be thinking 'Why we not moving'.

People shouldn't have to leave earlier than they already are, unless they are arriving with less than 5 minutes before they are due to start. If you're arriving with 8 minutes to spare then you shouldn't have to leave earlier and should be able to rely on Metro, or for them to at least tell you why you have been slightly delayed, if it's due to TSRs (Track Speed Restrictions) then the driver wouldn't say but if the train has stopped for a prolonged period of time then it should be pointed out as to why by the driver. It seriously wouldn't make a difference to their driving, but can guarantee now it would make a huge difference to the way the public see Metro as they would know about any disruption whether it be small or large, from a red signal due to a train ahead, all the way to the power lines being ripped down and you being stuck in a tunnel.

 

[bluenoxid]

Public transport research has shown that waiting time is perceived as twice the time for travel. For example, people perceive a 5 minute wait as 10 minute waits. Travel Time is approximately the same as actual time, although it can be perceived as slighly shorter in some circumstances where the journey is comfortable.

 

[Paul_10]

Exactly! I don't tell people, but you can tell by how people are acting. They will start looking around, may be sitting up properly, have a puzzled look on their face or could just be thinking 'Why we not moving'.

Or they could be thinking something completely irrelevant! I might not know what the passengers are thinking but from what I see and hear, from my experience I don't tend to find people starting to worry about a slight hold up because if they did they might talk to the passenger next to them or to a friend why they are being hold up for.

I'm sorry but I just can't buy into doing an announcement after 30 seconds of being held at a red signal, in over 95% of cases it would just be a waste of time and quite irrelevant really. I suggested 5 mins of being held up as that could mean there might be a traffic jam of trains ahead or the train in front may have a problem etc.

I do agree from what I hear on facebook, that drivers should probably do more frequent announcements when disruptions do occur even if they don't have any information to pass on from control, when you hear people being held up for 20 mins and no announcement being made then of course that is not good enough because passengers will then be wondering what is going on then and won't have a clue.

 

[transmanche]

I'm sorry but I just can't buy into doing an announcement after 30 seconds of being held at a red signal, in over 95% of cases it would just be a waste of time and quite irrelevant really.

The question you have to ask yourself is why London Underground (who operate a lot more trains than Metro) feel it is worthwhile. And if such a policy, whether (30 secs or 1 minute) was introduced - what negative effect would it have on your life?

 

[valenta]

Waiting at signals is common place on the metro, particularly at peak times. It wouldn't harm anybody to have announcements, but I question it's necessity.

For other occasions it may often be the case that we do not want to know what the problem is. I remember an occasion many years ago when the driver informed us that they were passing a signal at danger as it was deemed to have failed - I didn't want to be worried by this information and was aware of the concern of other passengers on this occasion. You have to be wary of too much information.

 

[Paul_10]

The question you have to ask yourself is why London Underground (who operate a lot more trains than Metro) feel it is worthwhile. And if such a policy, whether (30 secs or 1 minute) was introduced - what negative effect would it have on your life?

I can't speak for LU but if it works for them then great but imo, I see it fairly pointless especially if there is no disruption actually occurring. You could argue we would just have too many announcements anyways either manual or computerized by the PA's.

 

[transmanche]

I can't speak for LU but if it works for them then great but imo, I see it fairly pointless especially if there is no disruption actually occurring.

But that's the whole point of the announcements... to reassure passengers that there isn't any major disruption!

 

[ModernRailways]

I can't speak for LU but if it works for them then great but imo, I see it fairly pointless especially if there is no disruption actually occurring.

As mentioned that would actually be the aim. You would be letting passengers know there is no big disruption and that you are just being held by a train ahead occupying the platform and that it will be on the move soon.

 

[WestCoast]

But that's the whole point of the announcements... to reassure passengers that there isn't any major disruption!

However, too many announcements = passengers not listening due to information overload. Something which I believe LU suffers from.

 

[ModernRailways]

However, too many announcements = passengers not listening due to information overload. Something which I believe LU suffers from.

Metro already has too many announcements. However, when the driver speaks everybody listens - that is when you can actually hear them. They tend to have the volume turned right down.

Metro doesn't really experience trains stopping at red signals except for a handful of trains during the peaks, but an announcement should only be made after about 1 minute of the train being stopped, unless it's outside peak times in which case it should be 30 seconds. Whether that be from all passengers being unloaded and passengers already waiting boarded or just from approaching the red aspect.

I've had a few bus drivers who have advised passengers that further in their journey there has been a vehicle accident and so may be delayed. I've also heard some say when there has been a car crash ahead which has caused traffic that we are sitting in.

 

[blue sabre]

Metro already has too many announcements. However, when the driver speaks everybody listens - that is when you can actually hear them. They tend to have the volume turned right down.

Given your stance, that is a fantastic opening line! Personally, I'd rather they got on with driving the trains and stick to giving updates when there is some useful informaton.
Stopped at a red signal because there is a train ahead really that should be taken for granted. If there is a extraordinary reason for the delay (failed train etc) then I'd expect them to announce that we may be a while. Every time we stop at a red aspect? I don't think so.

 

[ModernRailways]

Given your stance, that is a fantastic opening line! Personally, I'd rather they got on with driving the trains and stick to giving updates when there is some useful informaton.
Stopped at a red signal because there is a train ahead really that should be taken for granted. If there is a extraordinary reason for the delay (failed train etc) then I'd expect them to announce that we may be a while. Every time we stop at a red aspect? I don't think so.

What I meant by too many announcements are for the stations. Three announcements is unnecessary.

Being stopped at a red signal and telling people why, whether it be a train ahead or a possible signal failure really wouldn't affect how the trains are being driven and it would be useful for those who don't know why they have stopped.

Being stopped at a red signal doesn't always mean a train ahead. Usually it does but there could be a signal failure, track circuit failure and whole host of other things.

How many times do trains stop at red signals? Very few from the trains I've been on, even during the peak. Most of the time, it's because there has been a slight gap which has meant a Pelaw train has had longer dwell times due to a larger passenger demand which has meant that the train following will be held between Heworth and Pelaw whilst the Pelaw train heads into the sidings. An announcement to tell passengers this would go down well on the train being held.

If it was such a big deal for drivers to do so, then why do a handful already do this? I've been on one or two trains now where drivers have made announcements (even when there hasn't actually been a delay). The driver sounded the same, so it may just have been him who does it but people weren't starting to look agitated, or start fidgeting after we had been held for about 2 minutes. Nobody really cared, however when no announcement is made people care, and start to look agitated, fidgety, or panicky.

 

[142094]

In other news 4031 is back in passenger service paired with 4022. Havent heard news of any new retruns/departures. Also I assume there will be nothing leaving or returning from Doncaster while the line closure is in place?

There probably will be at least one going down or coming back in that period, the only thing is that it will have to wait until a break in the possession for the train to go around the Coast.

Being stopped at a red signal doesn't always mean a train ahead. Usually it does but there could be a signal failure, track circuit failure and whole host of other things.

A lot more trains stop at red signals compared to those that have to stop due to a track circuit failure. Plus I'm sure most people have the savvy to understand that if a train isn't moving, it is either being held at a red signal or is waiting to depart on time.

However, when the driver speaks everybody listens - that is when you can actually hear them. They tend to have the volume turned right down.

Really? The next time a train terminates or when there is an engineering possession on, look at how many people do not listen to the driver and remain on the train. No amount of announcements will shift some people, and they are either so oblivious to what is going on or just downright thick that they don't notice everyone else getting off the train or the saloon lights being turned off.

I hope that anyone needs to be reassured about a delay after 30 seconds doesn't travel by bus as they'd have a heart attack. Someone mentioned contacting control again, and I'll repeat what I said earlier. If all 39 drivers (seeing as there are 39 sets out in the peak hours) were to contact control for a 30 second delay, there would be chaos. The radio channel should be kept clear for drivers who actually need to contact control for whatever reason, such as an emergency, to report an incident or the alike.

Anyone who starts to panic after a delay of only a few minutes should have set off much earlier for their journey.

 

[ModernRailways]

I hope that anyone needs to be reassured about a delay after 30 seconds doesn't travel by bus as they'd have a heart attack. Someone mentioned contacting control again, and I'll repeat what I said earlier. If all 39 drivers (seeing as there are 39 sets out in the peak hours) were to contact control for a 30 second delay, there would be chaos. The radio channel should be kept clear for drivers who actually need to contact control for whatever reason, such as an emergency, to report an incident or the alike.

I never said that drivers would have to contact control after 30 seconds. The driver would only make an announcement to passengers letting them know why they've stopped. If after maybe 2 or 3 minutes of the train being stopped then the driver should contact control. However, this does all depend on what time of day it is.


Unrelated matter, there are no trains Monument to Heworth again, but this is at the request of the police. Reports of a gas leak which has meant no trains through the area. As usual people are moaning though on Facebook about something that Metro can't do anything about!

 

[Paul_10]

There probably will be at least one going down or coming back in that period, the only thing is that it will have to wait until a break in the possession for the train to go around the Coast.

If that is the case then surely the project is going to fall further behind schedule then? You seem to know more than most but from what I seen, a certain number of trains will terminate at Longbenton during the peaks, so surely they can get trains in and out of the eastern half of the depot or will the work include on some junctions leading to the depot?

If what you say is true, then maybe there is still time for one more set to head to Doncaster and that will be it for 3 weeks but I have to admit, I'm getting the impression things have slowed down slightly again, still seem around just over 2 months between a set leaving for Doncaster and back out on the system, I'm sure Huw said the aim was for sets to be away for 3-4 weeks?