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Tyne Tees Day Ranger - Grey Area

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Darandio

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Decided to go on a Tyne Tees Day Ranger again today and it was fairly good, weather was better than expected but the Redcar ticket office took the hard line this time.
My first train is 08:43 but the ranger doesn't start until 08:45. Generally I am allowed to purchase the ticket and let the guard decide whether he wants to charge me a single to the nearest station in order for the ranger to then become valid. This has happened many times before without question but this morning the lady in the ticket office insisted that I buy a single to South Bank along with the ranger. I explained that she had let me just have the ranger many times before but she still insisted. I then said, what if the train doesnt arrive until 08:45, she said that it wouldn't matter because I the ranger was now booked on the scheduled 08:43 service.
Now I am not an expert on tickets but the ranger isn't specifically booked on any service at all, it's an open ticket and should surely be valid on the 08:43 if it arrives after the ticket becomes valid. Against my will, I then purchased a single to South Bank for £2.40.
As for the train, it arrived at around 08:44:45 and I didn't board until after 08:45 anyway, then the guard just accepted the ranger so I had wasted the £2.40.
She is probably within her rights to question my timings but not to say that the ticket is now scheduled for that particular service.
Apart from that, the rest of the day went well, had some GC action in the first class replacement coach and managed to cram in some decent mileage!

P.S. Some of the older MTU's are starting to sound pretty good and are also clagging well too! That should start an argument.
 
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glynn80

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That is certainly incorrect, if it becomes 0845 and the train has not arrived (or departed) you can use it on that service. Although saying that ticket office staff do have a duty if they believe fare evasion will occur to combat that, regardless of whether the guard accepts it or not it isn't valid until 0845 and because the ticket office was open you wouldn't really be allowed to purchase tickets on board (if you did it would be at full fare or could be liable for penalty fare). I believe you would be entitled to a refund of the ticket but for £2.40 not really worth it.
 

Darandio

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That is certainly incorrect, if it becomes 0845 and the train has not arrived (or departed) you can use it on that service. Although saying that ticket office staff do have a duty if they believe fare evasion will occur to combat that, regardless of whether the guard accepts it or not it isn't valid until 0845 and because the ticket office was open you wouldn't really be allowed to purchase tickets on board (if you did it would be at full fare or could be liable for penalty fare). I believe you would be entitled to a refund of the ticket but for £2.40 not really worth it.

No, and I am not going to chase it up either, as you say, not worth it.
Yes, the ticket office do have a duty but I do believe it should be the guards discretion. Every other time I have done it and the train has arrived on time I have even pointed it out to the guard who has always said that he/she won't charge me for a two minute difference.
 

yorkie

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If you ask for a rover she has to sell a rover.

What then happens on the train is not a matter for her.

If she refuses to sell the rover (or is unable to) then you should be able to buy on board at no penalty.

Do guards not sell these on board anyway? NT will usually sell any ticket you want I thought?
 

Darandio

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If you ask for a rover she has to sell a rover.

What then happens on the train is not a matter for her.

If she refuses to sell the rover (or is unable to) then you should be able to buy on board at no penalty.

So does that class it as guards discretion then Yorkie, I know you have a lot more knowledge of it than me. What I thought was, and you have pointed it out, I can buy a ranger/rover then use it when I like?
 

glynn80

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If you ask for a rover she has to sell a rover.

What then happens on the train is not a matter for her.

If she refuses to sell the rover (or is unable to) then you should be able to buy on board at no penalty.

Do guards not sell these on board anyway? NT will usually sell any ticket you want I thought?

This isn't the case if they believe fare evasion will be committed if those tickets are sold e.g. an adult wanting to purchase a child travelcard for their son but their son not being by the ticket counter often the ticket office will refuse incase the adult were to use the ticket. I don't disagree that she was wrong to say it was schedules on any particular train as that obviously defeats the point of a rover but she is not under any obligation to sell tickets if she knowingly believes fare evasion will be committed (which in this case it was but for 2 minutes its very petty and thus the guard would allow it) . What happens on the train is a matter for ticket office staff as if they are to sell the incorrect tickets there would consequences...
 

hairyhandedfool

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The answer to this is in the restriction of the ticket.

If the ticket is restricted to trains timed to depart at 0845 or after, then it is not valid on the 0843, regardless when it turns up, and the ticket office are right to sell you the single ticket, as that would be the cheapest valid ticket for your journey.

If, however, it is valid at or after 0845 then provided the train leaves at or after 0845 then it is valid, however the ticket office would still be right to offer the single ticket unless she had information that the train was 2 minutes late or more, because it would still be thge cheapest valid ticket for your journey.

Personally I wouldn't be bothered about two minutes, but rules are rules.
 

Darandio

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The answer to this is in the restriction of the ticket.

If the ticket is restricted to trains timed to depart at 0845 or after, then it is not valid on the 0843, regardless when it turns up, and the ticket office are right to sell you the single ticket, as that would be the cheapest valid ticket for your journey.

If, however, it is valid at or after 0845 then provided the train leaves at or after 0845 then it is valid, however the ticket office would still be right to offer the single ticket unless she had information that the train was 2 minutes late or more, because it would still be thge cheapest valid ticket for your journey.

Personally I wouldn't be bothered about two minutes, but rules are rules.


I quote from the leaflet "Tyne & Tees Day Ranger tickets are available for travel from 08:45 Mondays to Fridays and anytime weekends and bank holidays"

I never actually stated that I was going to catch the 8:43 in the first place. For all she knew, I could of actually got the ticket and crossed the bridge in order to catch a train to Saltburn which would have been after 08:45 anyway. Never mind though, I am full of cold and my head hurts.
 

me123

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I'd have sold you the ticket myself; there was no proof that you were necessarily going to use that ticket against the T&Cs, purely circumstantial evidence. If you did use the ticket on the 08.43 train, the guard should then be the one to decide if it's valid; again I'd probably accept the ticket for the sake of 2 minutes but rules are rules and I would imagine that some people would rightly refuse the ticket.

In the case of this particular ranger ticket, if the train departs your station at 08.45 it is valid.

In short, if you ask for a ranger ticket you really should get that ticket; as has been said, you could have been travelling in the other direction or purchasing the ticket in advance for use later on in the day.
 

yorkie

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"Tyne Tees Day Ranger please"
"What train are you getting?"
"Not decided yet"

Simple...

The sooner rovers/rangers are available from machines/online, the better...
 

furryfeet

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then it is not valid on the 0843, regardless when it turns up

this response is misleading - the ticket is TIME restricted i.e. valid after a certain time.

It does not matter at what time the train was scheduled to leave - as long as it leaves ones station on or after 0845
 

Darandio

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So is the general opinion that I should have stood my ground on the fact that the train could have been and was late in a sense? As the thread title says, it still is a grey area because if you are allowed to give the guard discretion, then because of the 2 minute timescale we could then argue about seconds.
Overall, I paid £2.40 extra, not worth really complaining about but if I did 20 of these rangers a year, and I probably would providing they are still available, then I would be fairly out of pocket.
 

yorkie

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Yes, as it's a matter of principle.

Next time just say you don't know when you are leaving. Or, if you know you are travelling the day before, get it a day earlier.

Ticket office staff like this person really do annoy me. I find that it's more likely that ticket office staff moan about certain tickets than guards! They should stop trying to do the job of the guard and do what they are told to do which is sell tickets customers ask for.
 

hairyhandedfool

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The sooner rovers/rangers are available from machines/online, the better...

If they were on a machine do you think you could get it for travel on the 0843 then yorkie? or would it actually be programmed to only sell it after 0845 to avoid people "accidentally" purchasing it early, making absolutely no difference in this case? [retorical question, no need to answer]

this response is misleading - the ticket is TIME restricted i.e. valid after a certain time.

It does not matter at what time the train was scheduled to leave - as long as it leaves ones station on or after 0845

Re-read my post, I was not sure, at that point, what the restriction was, as it is not a ticket I sell. I said IF it is "valid for trains timed to depart at or after 0845" it is not valid, as the train was timed to depart at 0843, but IF it is "valid at or after 0845" then it would be valid on that service provided the train was late by atleast 2 minutes. Clearly this case is the latter.

I never actually stated that I was going to catch the 8:43 in the first place. For all she knew, I could of actually got the ticket and crossed the bridge in order to catch a train to Saltburn which would have been after 08:45 anyway. Never mind though, I am full of cold and my head hurts.

She would have had to have an indication of which way you are travelling in order to say you needed another ticket, you must surely have made some sort of indication, even if you didn't realise you had, or equally, you would have argued that you are not getting the 0843.

.... Or, if you know you are travelling the day before, get it a day earlier....

Can't argue with that, easy way round it so long as you don't say your going on the 0843!!

....Ticket office staff like this person really do annoy me. I find that it's more likely that ticket office staff moan about certain tickets than guards! They should stop trying to do the job of the guard and do what they are told to do which is sell tickets customers ask for.

Ticket offices must offer the cheapest through ticket for the journey(s) you are making, it is also their responsibility to point out the restrictions of any ticket, which may affect your journey.

Their other responsibility is to make sure that the ticket(s) you buy are valid for the journey(s) you are making, but perhaps we should forget that bit so we can have a go at the interfering old bat*!<(<(

[*for sarcastic value, no insult intended to any party]
 

rail-britain

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A similar problem exists with Off-Peak Day Return tickets
Normally valid after 09:00, Monday to Friday
However if your train is due to arrive at 08:50 and is 15 minutes late then you are still not permitted on that train, even though it will depart at 09:05
However, as a passenger you could equally argue that the ticket itself is valid at 09:05, even if the train is late, and in most cases the conductor will not take the matter further

The key point in rover terms is "not valid on trains timed to depart before 09:00"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Simple...
The sooner rovers/rangers are available from machines/online, the better...
Many are now available to purchase online, you just need to know how to find them on the trainsfares website!
The only main issue is you need to allow about a week to ensure you receive the ticket!
 

P156KWJ

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Decided to go on a Tyne Tees Day Ranger again today and it was fairly good, weather was better than expected but the Redcar ticket office took the hard line this time.
My first train is 08:43 but the ranger doesn't start until 08:45. Generally I am allowed to purchase the ticket and let the guard decide whether he wants to charge me a single to the nearest station in order for the ranger to then become valid. This has happened many times before without question but this morning the lady in the ticket office insisted that I buy a single to South Bank along with the ranger. I explained that she had let me just have the ranger many times before but she still insisted. I then said, what if the train doesnt arrive until 08:45, she said that it wouldn't matter because I the ranger was now booked on the scheduled 08:43 service.
Now I am not an expert on tickets but the ranger isn't specifically booked on any service at all, it's an open ticket and should surely be valid on the 08:43 if it arrives after the ticket becomes valid. Against my will, I then purchased a single to South Bank for £2.40.
As for the train, it arrived at around 08:44:45 and I didn't board until after 08:45 anyway, then the guard just accepted the ranger so I had wasted the £2.40.
She is probably within her rights to question my timings but not to say that the ticket is now scheduled for that particular service.
Apart from that, the rest of the day went well, had some GC action in the first class replacement coach and managed to cram in some decent mileage!

P.S. Some of the older MTU's are starting to sound pretty good and are also clagging well too! That should start an argument.


It's not supposed to be valid on GC :lol:
 

Darandio

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Isn't it? Oh, when did they change their rules?

Turns out that they never did change it in favour of the ranger ticket. It is still not valid as the leaflet suggests and they will only accept Rovers.

I have used a ranger before on GC thanks to the very nice guard but on this occasion Sulzer, I paid for a single to Northallerton.
 
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