Tyne & Wear ideas and suggestions

[jh64]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tyne-wear-metro-fleet-replacement-awarded-to-stadler.157260

If the plan is indeed to run the short distance to the Metro Centre using battery power, where exactly will the link to the existing network be? It looks simple to add points to cross back over to the main line just before Gateshead Stadium, but that only really works if you're approaching from Sunderland without getting into the faff of reversing direction and changing cabs. Without doing something like tunnel-digging or bridge-building, I'm having trouble picturing how it'd work.

 

[MetroCar4058]

If the plan is indeed to run the short distance to the Metro Centre using battery power, where exactly will the link to the existing network be? It looks simple to add points to cross back over to the main line just before Gateshead Stadium, but that only really works if you're approaching from Sunderland without getting into the faff of reversing direction and changing cabs. Without doing something like tunnel-digging or bridge-building, I'm having trouble picturing how it'd work.

Quite frankly, there isn't a solid plan yet. Those plans are being worked on over the next couple of years. I'd expect a shuttle from Central Mainline along the old North of Tyne part of the route to Carlisle.

Don't really see this as a major area of future expansion if I'm honest.

 

[transmanche]

If the plan is indeed to run the short distance to the Metro Centre using battery power, where exactly will the link to the existing network be?

Which particular set of plans though? There seem to be various different plans over the years, but none ever seem to get close to fruition. Even seemingly 'quick wins' like converting freight-only routes for passenger service never get progressed.

From the Metro Futures document in 2016:

West Newcastle
An opportunity exists to use the original Carlisle line out of Newcastle Central station, then via a new alignment alongside Scotswood Road. This would potentially extend the reach of local rail into West Newcastle, electrified at 25kV AC but integrated with the Metro system using dual-voltage trains. The area could also be linked to the Metrocentre via a bridge across the river Tyne.

Recent developments in the Gallowgate area mean that the potential to extend the Metro system further westwards from St James is greatly reduced, and would be very expensive given the need to create new tunnels below deep building foundations and arterial highways.

Metro to Metrocentre
Metrocentre is a major leisure, retail and employment site as well as acting as a transport hub for Western Gateshead. The existing rail service provides frequent links to Newcastle and Hexham, and hourly to Sunderland. Some of the opportunities described in this document could provide new rail links to serve Metrocentre - for example to South East Northumberland. Two further opportunities are worthy of exploration: using the line through Gateshead to access Heworth, South Tyneside and Sunderland directly, avoiding the congested Newcastle Central Station; and using an existing freight spur between Bensham and Team Valley to connect to the route to the new A1 Park and Ride site.

All a bit vague and aspirational and I've not seen anything concrete since, other than another 'kicking the can down the road' article from the Newcastle Chronicle in November 2019:

A huge extension of the network into areas including Newcastle’s West End, the Metrocentre, and Washington has been talked about for years. And councillors are now calling on transport bosses to take the next step towards making those plans a reality. During discussions about Metro operator Nexus’ budget this week, North Tyneside councillor Carl Johnson urged transport chiefs to put money towards feasibility studies that would determine what expansion of the network is possible and which areas to prioritise.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Don't really see this as a major area of future expansion if I'm honest.

They've been talking about it since forever, but I really don't see the point. The existing Northern shuttle from Newcastle mainly carries fresh air, really what is needed is better bus priority around Dunston Staithes (and for Go to make the X66 non-stop, using high capacity buses, again).

Extending to Washington should be the first priority, but Nexus are clueless so...

 

[transmanche]

They've been talking about it since forever, but I really don't see the point. The existing Northern shuttle from Newcastle mainly carries fresh air

The 'shuttle' is no more. The 3tph between Central and Metrocentre are all part of longer routes (Middlesbrough-Hexham, Morpeth-Carlisle and Newcastle-Carlisle).

There are two main problems with the train service:

• Changing from Metro/bus to rail in Newcastle. This can be a faff, so a direct Metro connection would help.
• Ticketing. Transfare prices are ridiculous. So, if you're using a Stagecoach bus to get into central Newcastle, you might as well get a DayRider and take the 100. (Or if you're in Gateshead, using a GNE bus/day pass and the X66.)

 

[hacman]

The 'shuttle' is no more. The 3tph between Central and Metrocentre are all part of longer routes (Middlesbrough-Hexham, Morpeth-Carlisle and Newcastle-Carlisle).

There are two main problems with the train service:

• Changing from Metro/bus to rail in Newcastle. This can be a faff, so a direct Metro connection would help.
• Ticketing. Transfare prices are ridiculous. So, if you're using a Stagecoach bus to get into central Newcastle, you might as well get a DayRider and take the 100. (Or if you're in Gateshead, using a GNE bus/day pass and the X66.)

Then there is the third issue - it's not advertised well at all.

Quite few people actually know the rail link exists, or that it's anywhere near as frequent as it is, or that you can use NetworkOne passes on it, or that the pricing for single/return tickets on the train are quite reasonable. With most trips between Newcastle Central and Metrocentre timed for about 7 minutes, it's actually a bit quicker too in terms of actual journey time - and this could be reduced even further if the track to the east of Dunston station was improved.

The bus companies on the other hand advertise quite prominently - I'm not sure if it's still the case but there was even branding at platform level for the X66 on Gateshead station at one point!

Nexus and Northern would do very well to look at integrating certain routes in the area as a sort of "Metro+" service with through tickets and acceptance of NetworkOne and MetroSaver tickets - it would be a very good way to virtually extend Metro without actually doing much more than branding and adding some lines on a map, and could if done well provide the basis for a business case for actual expansion.

Obvious trial targets for this would be Blaydon via Metrocentre (if not a bit further out - perhaps even as far as Hexham), Cramlington and perhaps Seaham.

 

[Scott M]

If the plan is indeed to run the short distance to the Metro Centre using battery power, where exactly will the link to the existing network be? It looks simple to add points to cross back over to the main line just before Gateshead Stadium, but that only really works if you're approaching from Sunderland without getting into the faff of reversing direction and changing cabs. Without doing something like tunnel-digging or bridge-building, I'm having trouble picturing how it'd work.

Plus where would you run Metrocentre services from - would South Shields, Sunderland, St James and Airport all get Metrocentre services?

They've been talking about it since forever, but I really don't see the point. The existing Northern shuttle from Newcastle mainly carries fresh air, really what is needed is better bus priority around Dunston Staithes (and for Go to make the X66 non-stop, using high capacity buses, again).

Extending to Washington should be the first priority, but Nexus are clueless so...

Took the X66 for the first time a while few months ago, and was surprised to see it isn't an express anymore.

The 'shuttle' is no more. The 3tph between Central and Metrocentre are all part of longer routes (Middlesbrough-Hexham, Morpeth-Carlisle and Newcastle-Carlisle).

There are two main problems with the train service:

• Changing from Metro/bus to rail in Newcastle. This can be a faff, so a direct Metro connection would help.
• Ticketing. Transfare prices are ridiculous. So, if you're using a Stagecoach bus to get into central Newcastle, you might as well get a DayRider and take the 100. (Or if you're in Gateshead, using a GNE bus/day pass and the X66.)

I take the train now since the X66 isn't an express anymore and find the ticket prices to be quite good if I am honest. Don't find it too much of a fuss to change either, just a case of walking to a train platform instead of a bus stop. I do buy my tickets on the trainline app however, so saves me the fuss of going to the ticket office. Do think Northern could benefit from utilising Platform 1 a bit more though, to save the hassle of having to go across the bridges. Appreciate this does add time however.

Nexus and Northern would do very well to look at integrating certain routes in the area as a sort of "Metro+" service with through tickets and acceptance of NetworkOne and MetroSaver tickets - it would be a very good way to virtually extend Metro without actually doing much more than branding and adding some lines on a map, and could if done well provide the basis for a business case for actual expansion.

Obvious trial targets for this would be Blaydon via Metrocentre (if not a bit further out - perhaps even as far as Hexham), Cramlington and perhaps Seaham.

Very good idea that. Could just add Metrocentre as a 4th 'zone' (maybe zone 'M'). E.g. you could buy a Zone A+B+C+M daysaver.

 

[sprinterguy]

Plus where would you run Metrocentre services from - would South Shields, Sunderland, St James and Airport all get Metrocentre services?

Using purely existing services and a Gateshead link, my initial thought was that South Shields services would run to and from the Metrocentre, as Sunderland already has an hourly heavy rail Metrocentre link and I believe that there was political drive behind giving Sunderland direct Metro services to the Airport. A substitute Pelaw - St James via South Gosforth and The Coast service would additionally operate in place of current services from South Shields, as I'm assuming there's only limited demand for Metro travel between South and North Tyneside when buses or the ferry are more direct.

The downside of such a plan is that it cuts off the South Shields branch's direct service to Newcastle, which is surely unpalatable. Perhaps 2tph South Shields - Metrocentre, to suit limited capacity on the heavy rail Bensham - Metrocentre section, and 3tph into Newcastle and round the coast as per the current route? It's possible that any speculative Metrocentre services would have to wait for the implementation of other additional services such as the 'Wearside loop' via Washington.

 

[Meerkat]

If the new trains can operate easily on 25KV NR lines then I would have thought it would be best to wire Pelaw Metro Jcn to High Level Bridge then run Sunderland Metros through Central and out to Metrocentre. The tricky bit would be fitting in new Metro height platforms southside of Central (they need different height platforms don’t they??)

 

[deanmachine]

Using purely existing services and a Gateshead link, my initial thought was that South Shields services would run to and from the Metrocentre, as Sunderland already has an hourly heavy rail Metrocentre link and I believe that there was political drive behind giving Sunderland direct Metro services to the Airport. A substitute Pelaw - St James via South Gosforth and The Coast service would additionally operate in place of current services from South Shields, as I'm assuming there's only limited demand for Metro travel between South and North Tyneside when buses or the ferry are more direct.

The downside of such a plan is that it cuts off the South Shields branch's direct service to Newcastle, which is surely unpalatable. Perhaps 2tph South Shields - Metrocentre, to suit limited capacity on the heavy rail Bensham - Metrocentre section, and 3tph into Newcastle and round the coast as per the current route? It's possible that any speculative Metrocentre services would have to wait for the implementation of other additional services such as the 'Wearside loop' via Washington.

I'm not sure cutting any tph from South Shields to Newcastle would be realistic at all, there's probably not that much demand for people wanting to go to the Metrocentre over Newcastle itself. I don't think people have that much issue just switching onto the X66 at Gateshead, no-one I know does at least.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not sure cutting any tph from South Shields to Newcastle would be realistic at all, there's probably not that much demand for people wanting to go to the Metrocentre over Newcastle itself. I don't think people have that much issue just switching onto the X66 at Gateshead, no-one I know does at least.

Aye, probably falls into the "will never happen" category.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nexus and Northern would do very well to look at integrating certain routes in the area as a sort of "Metro+" service with through tickets and acceptance of NetworkOne and MetroSaver

NetworkOne tickets, including the DayRover, are already valid between Sunderland and Blaydon on the trains. Again, you wouldn't realise it from the (chronic lack of) advertising!

 

[jkkne]

I think the appeal of the Metrocentre in its current position is being vastly overstated versus even 10 years ago.

if you had properly managed and advertised integration, anyone from Shields who wanted to use a train over the frankly more than acceptable bus could simply hop off at Heworth and go from there.

plus the more long distance you make the metro the less appealing the new seat design becomes.

 

[Scott M]

Using purely existing services and a Gateshead link, my initial thought was that South Shields services would run to and from the Metrocentre, as Sunderland already has an hourly heavy rail Metrocentre link and I believe that there was political drive behind giving Sunderland direct Metro services to the Airport. A substitute Pelaw - St James via South Gosforth and The Coast service would additionally operate in place of current services from South Shields, as I'm assuming there's only limited demand for Metro travel between South and North Tyneside when buses or the ferry are more direct.

The downside of such a plan is that it cuts off the South Shields branch's direct service to Newcastle, which is surely unpalatable. Perhaps 2tph South Shields - Metrocentre, to suit limited capacity on the heavy rail Bensham - Metrocentre section, and 3tph into Newcastle and round the coast as per the current route? It's possible that any speculative Metrocentre services would have to wait for the implementation of other additional services such as the 'Wearside loop' via Washington.

Can Bede - Pelaw cope with 5tph (single track sections)?

NetworkOne tickets, including the DayRover, are already valid between Sunderland and Blaydon on the trains. Again, you wouldn't realise it from the (chronic lack of) advertising!

Have to admit I was unaware of that myself - had been buying metro daysaver and train tickets separate.

I think the appeal of the Metrocentre in its current position is being vastly overstated versus even 10 years ago.

if you had properly managed and advertised integration, anyone from Shields who wanted to use a train over the frankly more than acceptable bus could simply hop off at Heworth and go from there.

plus the more long distance you make the metro the less appealing the new seat design becomes.

Think it is only 1tph from Heworth, so can't exactly just hop on - have to plan a bit in advance which metro to take to time the train correctly. Newcastle is a bit more forgiving, 2-3tph from there (plus a nicer wait at Central than at Heworth).

 

[sprinterguy]

Can Bede - Pelaw cope with 5tph (single track sections)?

It's coped fine with that frequency for many years to date.

 

[CLH]

It's coped fine with that frequency for many years to date.

I believe there's also the transforming cities bid going in/gone in to dual it.

 

[Scott M]

It's coped fine with that frequency for many years to date.

Ah yes, was thinking peak is a 15 min frequency but it's 12.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Have to admit I was unaware of that myself - had been buying metro daysaver and train tickets separate.

The Metro DaySaver is not valid Newcastle-Blaydon. I'm talking about the Network One Day Rover (the eight quid one).

Ah yes, was thinking peak is a 15 min frequency but it's 12.

It used to be a 10 min frequency, and coped then too.

I think the appeal of the Metrocentre in its current position is being vastly overstated versus even 10 years ago.

Agreed. The appeal of the MetroCentre is the free parking. Other than that, it doesn't really offer anything that Eldon Square doesn't.

The X66 and the 100 certainly aren't the flagship services they used to be, and there's a reason for that.

 

[Scott M]

The Metro DaySaver is not valid Newcastle-Blaydon. I'm talking about the Network One Day Rover (the eight quid one).

Fair - still good to know I can just get one ticket instead of two though.

Agreed. The appeal of the MetroCentre is the free parking. Other than that, it doesn't really offer anything that Eldon Square doesn't.

The new food area of Eldon Square and The Gate have made Newcastle take off.

‘’,’.