Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

[sprinterguy]

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/new-metro-trains-colour-scheme-17659623

The 3 options for the colour scheme revealed.

Thanks for sharing.

It's reassuring to see that on the poll in the article at least, my favourite of the proposed liveries, option 3, has garnered most votes, with 53% of over 500 votes cast so far. Hopefully any official public consultation will attract similar responses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for sharing.

It's reassuring to see that on the poll in the article at least, my favourite of the proposed liveries, option 3, has garnered most votes, with 53% of over 500 votes cast so far. Hopefully any official public consultation will attract similar responses.

Clearly Merseyside PTE got it right, then!

Merseyrail Class 777

OK, slightly different shade of yellow and white doors but otherwise near identical.

 

[sprinterguy]

Clearly Merseyside PTE got it right, then!

OK, slightly different shade of yellow and white doors but otherwise near identical.

Yep, as soon as I knew that Stadler were in the running for the Tyne & Wear Metro fleet replacement I thought that the Merseyrail scheme would readily lend itself to the TW Metro operation.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Date for entry into service has now slipped to 2023.

 

[Paul_10]

Date for entry into service has now slipped to 2023.

I don't think that is any surprise, considering it will take about nearly 2 years to build and then testing them then I expect at least the summer of 2023 before any are in passenger service.

As it happens, the original dates were 2023 to 2025, then they suggested dates which always looked ambitious too me.

 

[simple simon]

now at over 1000 votes, option 3 still in the lead

I also voted for option 3, although the pebble design on the doors will be a pain for railway modellers building kits, etc (or wanting to 'fictitious livery' other trains) to replicate

 

[jkkne]

The right choice so far imo.

Though with 10 cancellations this morning, will they even have drivers to drive the shiny new trains

 

[Meerkat]

Are the new Stadlers 25KV ready, or just passive provision?
And are they sturdy enough to run on the mainline without special conditions (the current ones are double blocked aren’t they?)

 

[rdlover777]

i still personally prefer livery option A, whats wrong with Connex style liveries?

 

[MotCO]

i still personally prefer livery option A, whats wrong with Connex style liveries?

Same here. I still like the Connex livery - very smart.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is to discuss Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please create a new thread for that topic (or use an existing one, if there is one).

Thanks

 

[Scott M]

Seating layout is going down like a lead balloon on Metro’s Facebook post showcasing the new trains.

Edit: quotes from the screen captures below:

Too few seats, interior is terrible, designed around cramming as many people in during rush hour and events and not for the comfort of those who travel outside these times.

Plus not everyone likes to travel sideways or sit facing someone’s crotch or rear.

Unbelievable the lack of seats they have. It’s a long way to stand from Sunderland to monument :angry_face:

Look! USB ports so you can charge your phone! Nowhere left to sit on an average day but never mind.

Terrible seating plan

Even 1 side bus style 1 side benches would b better than this.

Bad bad choice

Where’s the seats? There’s half there and it’s a struggle to get a seat half the time anyway.

 

[Scott M]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is to discuss Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please create a new thread for that topic (or use an existing one, if there is one).

Thanks

Would it be worth us having our own sub forum like the London Underground has? We used to have one big thread but there seems to have been a mod decision to split everything up now so things are getting very scattered - we even had a thread moved to the Speculative Ideas forum a few days ago.

Plus worried we are kinda hogging the Other Public Transport forum - our threads currently account for 7 of the first page threads.

 

[Killingworth]

Seating layout is going down like a lead balloon on Metro’s Facebook post showcasing the new trains.

I travelled from Newcastle to Sunderland yesterday, a distance of about 15 miles taking almost half an hour. It's 53 minutes from Sunderland to the Airport.

I asked sone fellow travellers what they thought about the new seating arrangements. Less than impressed would be a fair summary. Currently they had big issues with closures and long delays due to train breakdowns, infrastructure failures and renewals - and strikes.

There was a cynicism about all aspects of the system and a conviction that nobody in responsibility must actually have to rely on the Metro to keep their jobs or get to any engagement on time. Comfort on longer journeys was clearly not thought to have been a priority in the future planning.

Of course I was travelling in school half term and off peak. I was reminded that when the Metro began it was every 3 or 4 minutes between South Gosforth and Pelaw. It's not that now, and the original plans included underground platforms capable of extention to take trains twice as long. But that was before bus deregulation.

 

[transmanche]

I asked sone fellow travellers what they thought about the new seating arrangements. Less than impressed would be a fair summary.

I guess they didn't bother to take part in the consultation which fed into the spec for the new trains...

I was reminded that when the Metro began it was every 3 or 4 minutes between South Gosforth and Pelaw. It's not that now, and the original plans included underground platforms capable of extention to take trains twice as long.

I don't think twice as long, but 50% longer. The current units can work three in multiple, so I guess the provision allowed them to move the false walls to allow 3-unit trains at peak times.

But that was before bus deregulation.

Indeed. The whole concept of Metro was based on an integrated transport system with an integrated ticketing system. Deregulation killed that, and passenger numbers are still lower than pre-deregulation. (And that's despite building extensions to the Airport and South Hylton, plus two additional stations at Northumberland Park and Simonside.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess they didn't bother to take part in the consultation which fed into the spec for the new trains...

To be fair none have been built yet, so it's not too late to change it if that makes sense. I'd go S-stock like myself (and wish Merseyrail were doing the same).

 

[ainsworth74]

Plus worried we are kinda hogging the Other Public Transport forum - our threads currently account for 7 of the first page threads.

Perhaps but the thread at the bottom of this section was last active on 28 January nearly a month ago. Which suggest that the overall level of activity isn't particularly high in which case there's no real issue having one system having several thread on the "front page".

The oldest thread on on the first page of the LU section was 26 January which makes it almost as active as the entirety of the rest of "Other Public Transport".

On the other hand if we had a Tyne & Wear Metro section how old would the thread at the bottom of the first page of that be? I went back as far as the end of 2018 and didn't find enough Tyne & Wear Metro threads to fill the first page of a sub-forum...

 

[transmanche]

To be fair none have been built yet, so it's not too late to change it if that makes sense.

No, but contracts have been signed and change requests often prove to be prohibitively expensive.

I believe Sunderland Council was the only PTE member strongly in favour of retaining some transverse seats. But as some people in Sunderland would say: "we've had our vote, the people have made their choice, let's just get on and deliver it".

I'd go S-stock like myself (and wish Merseyrail were doing the same).

That was always my preference.

I'm often very sceptical of consultations. But I responded to this one and it seemed comprehensive and fair to me. It had lots of publicity the local media. Such as this article in the Evening Chronicle from 12 October 2016:

Ever wished Metro carriages had a better lay out to beat the morning rush? Nexus, which owns the Metro network, is urging passengers to get involved in a new project which will help shape how new rolling stock on the network is laid out.

Or this from ITV News Tyne Tees:

The Tyne and Wear Metro is getting a new fleet of Metrocars and wants people from the North East to be involved in shaping the new design. Nexus, who runs the metro, are working with Newcastle University to host a series of pop-up labs across Tyne and Wear, where people can share their experiences of using the Metro and ideas for the next generation of trains.

As the ITV report suggests, the consultation itself was organised by Newcastle University's OpenLab
and was quite proactive in getting out there and trying to get the public involved.

In fact, the MetroFutures website is still live.

 

[ModernRailways]

To be fair none have been built yet, so it's not too late to change it if that makes sense. I'd go S-stock like myself (and wish Merseyrail were doing the same).

The S7 Stock have the exact same seating arrangements as the new Metro stock will have minus the lack of bike bays. The S8 stock running on the Met line is different and does have mainly longitudinal with some bays of 4, but that is due to the distance they travel and average journey length when they are most used (longer journeys during peaks, off-peak you'll often find the Met line carrying copious amounts of fresh air). Surveys/Consultations (quite in depth) have been done and the majority of people make short quick trips (20 mins or less), and most people do prefer longitudinal seating. From a safety perspective longitudinal allows you to see everything going on, there is no chance of someone coming behind you. For those people who do make longer journeys they will often find at the starting station they are likely to get a seat, and on the return a seat will likely become available for them to have as someone else leaves the train. During the peaks when they are least likely to get a seat, I believe most would choose being able to board the first train over waiting to get a seat. Of course, some people need a seat, and so the same would apply as currently does, there will still be priority seating.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm often very sceptical of consultations. But I responded to this one and it seemed comprehensive and fair to me. It had lots of publicity the local media. Such as this article in the Evening Chronicle from 12 October 2016:

When I was resident in Newcastle our household had the Evening Chronicle delivered 6 days a week, and many neighbours received the Journal every morning - and a few received both (newspaper rounds teach a lot about social behaviour). My suspicion is that a lot fewer buy either today. Did the same information go into papers circulating in Sunderland, like the Norhern Echo?

However respondents to polls of this sort aren't always the best way to gauge public aproval of what is to be ultimately provided. I suspect the level of approval of the new trains will fall once the novelty wears off and the reality of the seating becomes known, especially from users travelling longer distances. I'm not surprised the Sunderland representative voted against the new style.

The Ideas for Future Metro Trains page on the Metro Futures website doesnt show any pictures suggesting the format now being ordered, quite the reverse.

(As one who frequently travels the 35 miles or so from Sheffield to Manchester by TPE in about 50 minutes I'm used to standing all the way, but two wrongs don't make anything right. Interesting comparison though, both on speed and comfort.)

 

[transmanche]

Did the same information go into papers circulating in Sunderland, like the Norhern Echo?

No idea. Other media covered. But if the Sunderland Echo, etc. chose not to run the story, there's only so much that Nexus and OpenLab can do...

However respondents to polls of this sort aren't always the best way to gauge public aproval of what is to be ultimately provided. I suspect the level of approval of the new trains will fall once the novelty wears off and the reality of the seating becomes known, especially from users travelling longer distances. I'm not surprised the Sunderland representative voted against the new style.

The Ideas for Future Metro Trains page on the Metro Futures website doesnt show any pictures suggesting the format now being ordered, quite the reverse.

The Metro Futures website was only one part of the consultation programme. At the pop-up events, for example, people were shown different options, such as this (which I have posted before, so apologies for repetition):

You might want to have a look at Metro trains for the future: what our passengers have said which documents the results of the consultation. But linear seating was clearly "the will of the people" in 2016: and, as such, the result deserves to be respected... ( ) despite our reservations.

 

[Killingworth]

No idea. Other media covered. But if the Sunderland Echo, etc. chose not to run the story, there's only so much that Nexus and OpenLab can do...

However respondents to polls of this sort aren't always the best way to gauge public aproval of what is to be ultimately provided. I suspect the level of approval of the new trains will fall once the novelty wears off and the reality of the seating becomes known, especially from users travelling longer distances. I'm not surprised the Sunderland representative voted against the new style.

The Metro Futures website was only one part of the consultation programme. At the pop-up events, for example, people were shown different options, such as this (which I have posted before, so apologies for repetition):

You might want to have a look at Metro trains for the future: what our passengers have said which documents the results of the consultation. But linear seating was clearly "the will of the people" in 2016: and, as such, the result deserves to be respected... ( ) despite our reservations.

And as I too said in a previous post, the will of the people should be respected. A significant percentage, about a third, wanted the same as now so a mixed layout, probably 2, would be fairer.

 

[transmanche]

And as I too said in a previous post, the will of the people should be respected. A significant percentage, about a third, wanted the same as now so a mixed layout, probably 2, would be fairer.

But the proportion of people who really like longitudinal seating is almost three times the number who really hate it.

Strip out the don't knows and don't cares and it's 62% versus 38% in favour of longitudinal seating.

We're not going to get mixed layout seating. It's a shame. But we just have to accept it. And I'm sure that just as I (and millions of other London Overground passengers got used to all-longitudinal seating) I'm sure that I (and millions of other Metro passengers) will too.

 

[Scott M]

However respondents to polls of this sort aren't always the best way to gauge public aproval of what is to be ultimately provided. I suspect the level of approval of the new trains will fall once the novelty wears off and the reality of the seating becomes known, especially from users travelling longer distances.

Agreed - not everyone responds to polls and opinion on Facebook is certainly negative towards the new layout. Killingworth’s post earlier also painted a less than favourable public opinion towards it, and my own friends have been surprised (and not in a good way) at the seating layout once it was revealed.

We do need more room for passengers at rush hour, and I suspect rush hour commuters account for a large portion of metro’s revenue, so they do have to cater towards them. However it does feel a bit like sacrificing the overall passenger experience to benefit those who travel during the few hours of rush hour each day.

Could a simple solution not be to have two stocks - make the majority of trains have the existing seating layout and have the peak core shuttles have longitudinal seating? Would keep everyone happy and wouldn’t be a headache from a maintenance perspective as the trains would otherwise be identical, seating aside. Could maybe paint the peak core shuttle trains a different colour to aid identification for both passengers and in the depot.

Speaking from first-hand experience of currently working away from home, this works well on London/West Midland trains - the Class 350/1 has spacious 2x2 seating and is used on long distance services and short distance services outside of rush hour, whereas the Class 350/2 has more cramped 3x2 seating and is used on rush hour commute services to pack more passengers on. The trains are otherwise identical other than the seating.

 

[Scott M]

Perhaps but the thread at the bottom of this section was last active on 28 January nearly a month ago. Which suggest that the overall level of activity isn't particularly high in which case there's no real issue having one system having several thread on the "front page".

The oldest thread on on the first page of the LU section was 26 January which makes it almost as active as the entirety of the rest of "Other Public Transport".

On the other hand if we had a Tyne & Wear Metro section how old would the thread at the bottom of the first page of that be? I went back as far as the end of 2018 and didn't find enough Tyne & Wear Metro threads to fill the first page of a sub-forum...

I do think the number of metro threads will increase as we previously seemed to just have one big thread instead of several little ones, but yes I do agree that the Other Public Transport forum is not too active as a whole.

 

[jkkne]

I kind of see Metro future proofing itself for the commuter with its seating plans.

You see towns on both sides of the river (let’s pick Hebburn as one) essentially turning into giant commuter housing estates in place of old industry and the allure of the metro is used by these developers. As Newcastle introduces its LEZ a reliable metro becomes even more desirable for the commuter.

It can’t just be me as regular user who is seeing services becoming busier especially around rush hours.

Where you’re talking stations further out who have a long commute the train is likely to be quiet enough to grab a seat. Commute from Pelaw and 10 minutes spacious standing into Newcastle sounds a dream versus the current crowd around a pole approach. Most rush hour trains empty out into the city so any commuting further tends to get a seat after Monument.

 

[transmanche]

Agreed - not everyone responds to polls and opinion on Facebook is certainly negative towards the new layout.

Facebook comments (and indeed RUKF posts) are an even worse way to try and gauge public opinion...

 

[ModernRailways]

We will now be receiving 46 new trains, not the 42 initially announced. This makes it an increase of 1 train on what we currently have.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can't see that the seating capacity of the new trains is noticeably lower than the old ones- there is a lot of wasted space with the "internal" cabs. A current double-set has 128 seats and 10 (maybe 12 if you snuggle in and get cosy) bum-perches.

From what I can see from the link @transmanche posted, the new trains have 101 seats and 28 bum perches/tip-up seats. So a small reduction in seats but a massive increase in standing capacity, which is what you really need on an urban transport system. Certainly travelling from Northumberland Park you could forget a seat in the peaks, so having somewhere comfy to stand is important, something the old trains lacked. And if you got a seat, chances are you had a crotch in your face anyway!

I'd still personally have gone for an S8 layout, although I'm not convinced you gain much from transverse seating, but in London most trains are longitudinal-only (including LO and the S7s- don't forget the S7+1s used to regularly get to Amersham!) and journey times are often longer in London. Most people are travelling into Newcastle and so the longest usual journey times are 20-30 mins. It's really no big deal.

I'm more sad the front seats will be no more!

 

[ModernRailways]

As of the current design they will have 104 seats, with 4 wheelchair areas, and 4 'multi-purpose' areas. The wheelchair areas have 3 perch seats, the 'multi-purpose' areas have 4 perch seats, making 28 perch seats. They then have capacity for 492 standees (6ppl/m2).