Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

[Dstock7080]

 

[D365]

They look like the Class 777s for Merseyrail.

Not unexpected. I think they’re from the same ”family”.

 

[Ilovetrains43]

Not unexpected. I think they’re from the same ”family”.

I know but I thought they would follow a different design to the Merseyrail ones as they are a TOC Mainline operator and Tyne and Wear Metro are a 'Metro' company.

 

[danielnez1]

I know but I thought they would follow a different design to the Merseyrail ones as they are a TOC Mainline operator and Tyne and Wear Metro are a 'Metro' company.

The Metro operates alongside mainline trains on the Pelaw - Sunderland/South Hylton branch which is owned by Network Rail.

 

[DanNCL]

I know but I thought they would follow a different design to the Merseyrail ones as they are a TOC Mainline operator and Tyne and Wear Metro are a 'Metro' company.

Both networks are very similar. Both were formed in the late 1970s/early 1980s through merging suburban lines radiating out of the cities into new tunnels through the City Centres, both are PTE funded, and both operate with similar frequencies and distances between stops. The reason Merseyrail is classed as a TOC whilst Metro isn't stems back to ownership ultimately - Merseyrail was part of British Rail so was privatised in the 1990s with a Merseytravel funded franchised TOC running the services and Railtrack (now Network Rail) inheriting the track - Metro was directly operated by Nexus (or TWPTE as they were known back then) and so weren't affected by the privatisation of British Rail, and both the services and track remained owned by the PTE. Since the Sunderland extension opened in 2002, Metro now operates over Network Rail track too, and if anything Metro actually shares more track with other national rail services than Merseyrail!

You may have noticed that the Metro design is significantly cut down in height compared to the Merseyrail design, which is because of the limited clearances in the tunnels under Newcastle.

 

[Ilovetrains43]

Both networks are very similar. Both were formed in the late 1970s/early 1980s through merging suburban lines radiating out of the cities into new tunnels through the City Centres, both are PTE funded, and both operate with similar frequencies and distances between stops. The reason Merseyrail is classed as a TOC whilst Metro isn't stems back to ownership ultimately - Merseyrail was part of British Rail so was privatised in the 1990s with a Merseytravel funded franchised TOC running the services and Railtrack (now Network Rail) inheriting the track - Metro was directly operated by Nexus (or TWPTE as they were known back then) and so weren't affected by the privatisation of British Rail, and both the services and track remained owned by the PTE. Since the Sunderland extension opened in 2002, Metro now operates over Network Rail track too, and if anything Metro actually shares more track with other national rail services than Merseyrail!

You may have noticed that the Metro design is significantly cut down in height compared to the Merseyrail design, which is because of the limited clearances in the tunnels under Newcastle.

No, I didn't notice I thought they were Merseyrail 777s at first (I thought Tyne & Wear might have been trying to trick us but then I noticed the Metro-style on it.

 

[Ilovetrains43]

The Metro operates alongside mainline trains on the Pelaw - Sunderland/South Hylton branch which is owned by Network Rail.

Oh, I didn't know that thank you. Learn something new every day.

 

[D365]

The South Shields branch will be converted to mainline standard in order so that Metro and mainline freight can share a pair of tracks, rather than one bi-directional track for each. In a similar manner to how the Sunderland/South Hilton route operates.

 

[Ilovetrains43]

Didn't know that, thanks D365!

 

[DanNCL]

The South Shields branch will be converted to mainline standard in order so that Metro and mainline freight can share a pair of tracks, rather than one bi-directional track for each. In a similar manner to how the Sunderland/South Hilton route operates.

Only between Pelaw and just east of Jarrow. The rest of the branch will remain Metro only and won’t be equipped with AWS and TPWS.

The work will be carried out in 2023, mostly during a 12 week closure of the line from Pelaw to South Shields. The opportunity is being taken at the same time to improve the track drainage on the section that’ll be shared between Metro and Freight.

Of course, Metro and Freight have shared tracks before without any need for AWS or TPWS to be installed, as freight operated over Metro tracks between Benton and the Rowntrees site near Fawdon - the Rowntrees site is actually still open but hasn’t been rail connected since the late 1980s.

 

[D365]

Of course, Metro and Freight have shared tracks before without any need for AWS or TPWS to be installed, as freight operated over Metro tracks between Benton and the Rowntrees site near Fawdon - the Rowntrees site is actually still open but hasn’t been rail connected since the late 1980s.

Presumably a lot of paperwork was involved to maintain that dual use.

 

[Skie]

They look like the Class 777s for Merseyrail.

Only superficially. Essentially everything about them is different (traction package, bodyshell, doors, wheels, lights etc etc.) but they might share a colour scheme.

 

[Volvictof]

Only between Pelaw and just east of Jarrow. The rest of the branch will remain Metro only and won’t be equipped with AWS and TPWS.

The work will be carried out in 2023, mostly during a 12 week closure of the line from Pelaw to South Shields. The opportunity is being taken at the same time to improve the track drainage on the section that’ll be shared between Metro and Freight.

Of course, Metro and Freight have shared tracks before without any need for AWS or TPWS to be installed, as freight operated over Metro tracks between Benton and the Rowntrees site near Fawdon - the Rowntrees site is actually still open but hasn’t been rail connected since the late 1980s.

Just out of interest. How did they get from Benton to Fawdon? Did they use the Depot avoiding line or was there something else in place at the time?

 

[507020]

Only between Pelaw and just east of Jarrow. The rest of the branch will remain Metro only and won’t be equipped with AWS and TPWS.

So what does the Metro use instead?

 

[DanNCL]

Another video has been published showing the first of the new trains on the final assembly line at Stadler's St Margrethen site.

Just out of interest. How did they get from Benton to Fawdon? Did they use the Depot avoiding line or was there something else in place at the time?

Freight used the depot avoiding line.

So what does the Metro use instead?

Metro uses it's own "indusi" system, which is similar but not identical to the PZB system used by DB.

 

[XAM2175]

So what does the Metro use instead?

Metro uses it's own "indusi" system, which is similar but not identical to the PZB system used by DB.

More precisely, Indusi installations in Germany have evolved into the current PZB90.

Conveniently, because the on-track inductors sit immediately outside the right-hand running rail, it can be installed alongside AWS and TPWS without interference.

 

[swt_passenger]

More precisely, Indusi installations in Germany have evolved into the current PZB90.

Conveniently, because the on-track inductors sit immediately outside the right-hand running rail, it can be installed alongside AWS and TPWS without interference.

Or inside the left hand rail, as on TW Metro…

http://www.traintesting.com/images/East_Boldon.jpg

 

[507020]

More precisely, Indusi installations in Germany have evolved into the current PZB90.

Conveniently, because the on-track inductors sit immediately outside the right-hand running rail, it can be installed alongside AWS and TPWS without interference.

So is it installed alongside AWS and TPWS between Pelaw and Sunderland? Will the Stadler units also be fitted with AWS, TPWS and ETCS for compatibility with any other lines which the metro may be extended onto in the next 40 years?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will the Stadler units also be fitted with AWS, TPWS and ETCS for compatibility with any other lines which the metro may be extended onto in the next 40 years?

Nexus said in a Q&A a while ago they’d have an “Indusi style” system #, with the capability to retrofit ETCS if it was ever needed. I doubt it would be cost effective to fit AWS/TPWS to 46 trains, compared to extending “Indusi” over what is only ever going to be a short extension. They’re not going to go far on anywhere with existing 25kV, they’re not going up the Blyth and Tyne, there’s not that many possible extensions…

# “Indusi style” = ALTPRO (Croatia) RAS90 Automatic Train Protection.

 

[DanNCL]

So is it installed alongside AWS and TPWS between Pelaw and Sunderland? Will the Stadler units also be fitted with AWS, TPWS and ETCS for compatibility with any other lines which the metro may be extended onto in the next 40 years?

Yes, both Indusi and AWS/TPWS are fitted between Pelaw Metro Junction and Sunderland. Although Network Rail owned, the line between Sunderland and South Hylton is only equipped with Indusi - on the rare occasions a non-Metro train has to run down there (for example the Network Rail 950 which has made a few visits to South Hylton) they run without any form of train protection at a restricted speed.

Nexus said in a Q&A a while ago they’d have an “Indusi style” system #, with the capability to retrofit ETCS if it was ever needed. I doubt it would be cost effective to fit AWS/TPWS to 46 trains, compared to extending “Indusi” over what is only ever going to be a short extension. They’re not going to go far on anywhere with existing 25kV, they’re not going up the Blyth and Tyne, there’s not that many possible extensions…

# “Indusi style” = ALTPRO (Croatia) RAS90 Automatic Train Protection.

AWS and TPWS were part of the specification for the new fleet so if the new trains are delivered without (I did notice that there wasn’t an AWS “sunflower” or a TPWS panel in the mock-up cab that’s been delivered) it’ll be down to cost cutting by Nexus. Stadler products generally come with passive provision for ETCS retrofit as standard.

 

[XAM2175]

Or inside the left hand rail, as on TW Metro…

Oops

(I did notice that there wasn’t an AWS “sunflower” or a TPWS panel in the mock-up cab that’s been delivered)

Any chance they're being emulated by the ETCS controller and as such will instead be shown on the DMI?

 

[507020]

Yes, both Indusi and AWS/TPWS are fitted between Pelaw Metro Junction and Sunderland. Although Network Rail owned, the line between Sunderland and South Hylton is only equipped with Indusi - on the rare occasions a non-Metro train has to run down there (for example the Network Rail 950 which has made a few visits to South Hylton) they run without any form of train protection at a restricted speed.

Why is Sunderland - South Halton not owned by Nexus and do Nexus have any departmental stock to run on their own infrastructure? The Sprinter running towards a dead end terminus without any form of train protection must be interesting.

AWS and TPWS were part of the specification for the new fleet so if the new trains are delivered without (I did notice that there wasn’t an AWS “sunflower” or a TPWS panel in the mock-up cab that’s been delivered) it’ll be down to cost cutting by Nexus. Stadler products generally come with passive provision for ETCS retrofit as standard.

Any chance they're being emulated by the ETCS controller and as such will instead be shown on the DMI?

I have been in a Class 777 cab and it didn’t have a physical sunflower so I’m assuming it will be on the display. How common is this emulation on new stock?

 

[Tramfan]

Why is Sunderland - South Halton not owned by Nexus and do Nexus have any departmental stock to run on their own infrastructure? The Sprinter running towards a dead end terminus without any form of train protection must be interesting.


I have been in a Class 777 cab and it didn’t have a physical sunflower so I’m assuming it will be on the display. How common is this emulation on new stock?

Nexus have 3 Battery Locomotives for their infrastructure, as well as a Tamper and various other departmental wagons (for OHL/track) and an RHTT etc. The RHTT wagon is top and tailed by 2 Metrocars each year. In addition, one Metrocar (4002) is fitted with frames on the roof to allow for cameras to be fitted to survey the infrastructure, which has happened once or twice.

 

[DanNCL]

Any chance they're being emulated by the ETCS controller and as such will instead be shown on the DMI?

The AWS sunflower can be emulated by the ETCS display, but a reset button would still need to be installed. TPWS can't be emulated by the ETCS display.

Why is Sunderland - South Halton not owned by Nexus and do Nexus have any departmental stock to run on their own infrastructure? The Sprinter running towards a dead end terminus without any form of train protection must be interesting.

Makes most sense for it to be Network Rail owned as the only connection to it is from the national network and the wires are fed by Network Rail substations rather than Nexus substations.

Nexus do have their own departmental stock - three Hunslet battery-electric locos (numbered BL1-BL3 on Nexus infrastructure, also allocated TOPS numbers 97901-97903) as well as a tamper and a few wagons, one of which carries a watter jetting module during the leafall season and is hauled around Nexus infrastructure both by the battery locos and Metrocars top and tailed - formations of Loco+RHTT+Loco, Loco+RHTT+Metrocar and Metrocar+RHTT+Metrocar have all been. I'm only aware of one instance of any Nexus departmental stock making it onto Network Rail infrastructure, which was one of the battery locos back in the mid 2000s, I'm not sure what the purpose of that move was.

At a guess the use of non-Metro stock on departmental duties to South Hylton is likely permitted under the same rules that allow heritage railways to operate at 25mph without train protection. In addition to the 950, MPVs and 37+Mark 2 test trains have visited South Hylton. There are photos on flickr of the former two on the branch: https://flic.kr/p/GcmDwF and https://flic.kr/p/H7D3rM , I have seen a photo of a 37 hauled test train there too but haven't been able to find it again.

I have been in a Class 777 cab and it didn’t have a physical sunflower so I’m assuming it will be on the display. How common is this emulation on new stock?

The majority of new stock has this setup. The only outliers built in the last 10 years I can think of are the 387s and the 800/801/802/803s.

In addition, one Metrocar (4002) is fitted with frames on the roof to allow for cameras to be fitted to survey the infrastructure, which has happened once or twice.

4002 hasn't left Gosforth depot for more than a year. I would assume if Nexus still require the equipment that it'll have been fitted to another Metrocar by now, as the odds of 4002 running again, at least in the short term, are very low.

 

[Tramfan]

The AWS sunflower can be emulated by the ETCS display, but a reset button would still need to be installed. TPWS can't be emulated by the ETCS display.


Makes most sense for it to be Network Rail owned as the only connection to it is from the national network and the wires are fed by Network Rail substations rather than Nexus substations.

Nexus do have their own departmental stock - three Hunslet battery-electric locos (numbered BL1-BL3 on Nexus infrastructure, also allocated TOPS numbers 97901-97903) as well as a tamper and a few wagons, one of which carries a watter jetting module during the leafall season and is hauled around Nexus infrastructure both by the battery locos and Metrocars top and tailed - formations of Loco+RHTT+Loco, Loco+RHTT+Metrocar and Metrocar+RHTT+Metrocar have all been. I'm only aware of one instance of any Nexus departmental stock making it onto Network Rail infrastructure, which was one of the battery locos back in the mid 2000s, I'm not sure what the purpose of that move was.

At a guess the use of non-Metro stock on departmental duties to South Hylton is likely permitted under the same rules that allow heritage railways to operate at 25mph without train protection. In addition to the 950, MPVs and 37+Mark 2 test trains have visited South Hylton. There are photos on flickr of the former two on the branch: https://flic.kr/p/GcmDwF and https://flic.kr/p/H7D3rM , I have seen a photo of a 37 hauled test train there too but haven't been able to find it again.


The majority of new stock has this setup. The only outliers built in the last 10 years I can think of are the 387s and the 800/801/802/803s.


4002 hasn't left Gosforth depot for more than a year. I would assume if Nexus still require the equipment that it'll have been fitted to another Metrocar by now, as the odds of 4002 running again, at least in the short term, are very low.

I think the surveying equipment was hired in when it was required rather than being owned by Nexus, but I'm fairly certain the brackets were never removed from 4002 as the car was specifically requested when the system was surveyed for a second time a couple of years ago. On the subject of 4002, it has been powered up and moving around under its own power recently, and looks to have had the door alarm pods fitted above the doors as per the rest of the fleet.

 

[DanNCL]

On the subject of 4002, it has been powered up and moving around under its own power recently, and looks to have had the door alarm pods fitted above the doors as per the rest of the fleet.

Interesting development from Gosforth there but a positive one nonetheless, it was starting to look like both 4001 and 4002 wouldn't be coming back!

 

[507020]

Nexus do have their own departmental stock - three Hunslet battery-electric locos (numbered BL1-BL3 on Nexus infrastructure, also allocated TOPS numbers 97901-97903) as well as a tamper and a few wagons, one of which carries a watter jetting module during the leafall season and is hauled around Nexus infrastructure both by the battery locos and Metrocars top and tailed - formations of Loco+RHTT+Loco, Loco+RHTT+Metrocar and Metrocar+RHTT+Metrocar have all been. I'm only aware of one instance of any Nexus departmental stock making it onto Network Rail infrastructure, which was one of the battery locos back in the mid 2000s, I'm not sure what the purpose of that move was.

In that case is it likely for any of the Metrocars to be retained as part of the departmental fleet once the Stadler units are in service or are they too worn out for that?

 

[DanNCL]

In that case is it likely for any of the Metrocars to be retained as part of the departmental fleet once the Stadler units are in service or are they too worn out for that?

Too early to tell I think. There’s not been anything to suggest either way at the minute.

 

[hacman]

Yes, both Indusi and AWS/TPWS are fitted between Pelaw Metro Junction and Sunderland. Although Network Rail owned, the line between Sunderland and South Hylton is only equipped with Indusi - on the rare occasions a non-Metro train has to run down there (for example the Network Rail 950 which has made a few visits to South Hylton) they run without any form of train protection at a restricted speed.


AWS and TPWS were part of the specification for the new fleet so if the new trains are delivered without (I did notice that there wasn’t an AWS “sunflower” or a TPWS panel in the mock-up cab that’s been delivered) it’ll be down to cost cutting by Nexus. Stadler products generally come with passive provision for ETCS retrofit as standard.

Why is Sunderland - South Halton not owned by Nexus and do Nexus have any departmental stock to run on their own infrastructure? The Sprinter running towards a dead end terminus without any form of train protection must be interesting.

Interestingly Park Lane - South Hylton is actually owned by Nexus, but they effectively lease it back to Railtrack (now Network Rail) to build and operate on their behalf - this was the option chosen as there was little point in Nexus maintaining the short section due to the distance from the rest of the network, and the fact that when the Sunderland Direct project was planned and delivered Nexus would have had to contract in a construction company to reinstate this line, and Railtrack were already doing all of the remediation work between Pelaw and Sunderland anyway.

 

[DanNCL]

Interestingly Park Lane - South Hylton is actually owned by Nexus, but they effectively lease it back to Railtrack (now Network Rail) to build and operate on their behalf - this was the option chosen as there was little point in Nexus maintaining the short section due to the distance from the rest of the network, and the fact that when the Sunderland Direct project was planned and delivered Nexus would have had to contract in a construction company to reinstate this line, and Railtrack were already doing all of the remediation work between Pelaw and Sunderland anyway.

Very interesting, I didn't know this and have been following developments on the Metro network for a long time! It certainly does make sense for it to work this way though!