Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

[507020]

Interestingly Park Lane - South Hylton is actually owned by Nexus, but they effectively lease it back to Railtrack (now Network Rail) to build and operate on their behalf - this was the option chosen as there was little point in Nexus maintaining the short section due to the distance from the rest of the network, and the fact that when the Sunderland Direct project was planned and delivered Nexus would have had to contract in a construction company to reinstate this line, and Railtrack were already doing all of the remediation work between Pelaw and Sunderland anyway.

I’m surprised Railtrack managed to do it!

 

[hacman]

I’m surprised Railtrack managed to do it!

Nexus paid for the majority of it, so they were effectively a contractor.

That said, there are elements of the design that were significantly value-engineered - the entirety of Sunderland station being the biggest example, but this is also evident in the fact that there is no TPWS / AWS beyond Park Lane, the non-standard electrification design which has delayed repairs on a few occasions, the very spartan design of stations and shelters, the fact that Nexus didn't procure extra rolling stock, etc.

It's kind of a miracle that it happened at all, to be honest. We've seen how difficult it is to get funding for these sorts of schemes, and this was something quite unprecedented and unproven due to the light-rail / heavy-rail aspect and integration of multiple signal technologies.

 

[Bald Rick]

Nexus paid for the majority of it, so they were effectively a contractor.

That said, there are elements of the design that were significantly value-engineered - the entirety of Sunderland station being the biggest example, but this is also evident in the fact that there is no TPWS / AWS beyond Park Lane, the non-standard electrification design which has delayed repairs on a few occasions, the very spartan design of stations and shelters, the fact that Nexus didn't procure extra rolling stock, etc.

It's kind of a miracle that it happened at all, to be honest. We've seen how difficult it is to get funding for these sorts of schemes, and this was something quite unprecedented and unproven due to the light-rail / heavy-rail aspect and integration of multiple signal technologies.

to add to the complication, the main contractor went bust halfway through the build. (Christiani & Neilsen)

 

[DanNCL]

That said, there are elements of the design that were significantly value-engineered - the entirety of Sunderland station being the biggest example, but this is also evident in the fact that there is no TPWS / AWS beyond Park Lane, the non-standard electrification design which has delayed repairs on a few occasions, the very spartan design of stations and shelters, the fact that Nexus didn't procure extra rolling stock, etc.

The electrification used on the Sunderland line is largely the same as that used on the rest of the Metro network. Non-standard for the UK in that it's 1.5kV DC, but no more non standard that what's used on the rest of the Metro network.

The absence of AWS / TPWS beyond Park Lane isn't an issue, the number of times a year that a train not equipped with indusi protection has to run down the line is likely single digits, and mostly (though not always) outside of regular passenger service hours.

The lack of extra rolling stock for the extension was a huge mistake, but has ultimately made things easier for Nexus in the long run as it's allowing them to maintain a single train type - any units that could have been built for the opening of the Sunderland line in 2002 wouldn't be life expired when the original Metro fleet was being replaced and Nexus would have been stuck with them until the mid-2030s, by which point the current Stadler design will no doubt be out of production and yet another new type would have been needed.

 

[D365]

The lack of extra rolling stock for the extension was a huge mistake, but has ultimately made things easier for Nexus in the long run as it's allowing them to maintain a single train type - any units that could have been built for the opening of the Sunderland line in 2002 wouldn't be life expired when the original Metro fleet was being replaced and Nexus would have been stuck with them until the mid-2030s, by which point the current Stadler design will no doubt be out of production and yet another new type would have been needed.

Isn't the Stadler fleet creating a net reduction in units? Or will that be counteracted by vastly improved reliability?

 

[DanNCL]

Isn't the Stadler fleet creating a net reduction in units? Or will that be counteracted by vastly improved reliability?

It was originally but an option for extra units has since been taken up to make it a net increase, 46 new units being delivered, equivalent to 92 of the current Metrocars. Combined with vastly improved reliability (15 times more reliable than the existing fleet supposedly) it’ll make up for the lack of extra units in 2002 for the Sunderland extension.

 

[D365]

It was originally but an option for extra units has since been taken up to make it a net increase, 46 new units being delivered, equivalent to 92 of the current Metrocars. Combined with vastly improved reliability (15 times more reliable than the existing fleet supposedly) it’ll make up for the lack of extra units in 2002 for the Sunderland extension.

The extra units are billed as being for an increased frequency on the South Shields branch.

 

[DanNCL]

The extra units are billed as being for an increased frequency on the South Shields branch.

The “increased frequency” is only restoring what was in place before the Sunderland extension was opened and the current fleet was stretched.

 

[D365]

The “increased frequency” is only restoring what was in place before the Sunderland extension was opened and the current fleet was stretched.

Ah! I wasn't aware of that.

 

[DanNCL]

Ah! I wasn't aware of that.

Nexus like to make out that a 10 minute frequency to South Shields is only possible with Metro Flow, I guess they probably had to in order to get the funding for it. They keep quiet about the fact that they ran trains there every 10 minutes up until 2000 without the dual tracking!

 

[ModernRailways]

Nexus like to make out that a 10 minute frequency to South Shields is only possible with Metro Flow, I guess they probably had to in order to get the funding for it. They keep quiet about the fact that they ran trains there every 10 minutes up until 2000 without the dual tracking!

They did, but with the Sunderland extension it was made more difficult as trying to path trains amongst the freight etc and keeping a standardised frequency is not easy and typically wouldn't be compatible with the current requirements for Pelaw junction. You could argue a 3/4 minute service could be run down towards South Shields on the current network if everything worked as it should, and this is evident on GNR days.

The lack of extra rolling stock for the extension was a huge mistake, but has ultimately made things easier for Nexus in the long run as it's allowing them to maintain a single train type - any units that could have been built for the opening of the Sunderland line in 2002 wouldn't be life expired when the original Metro fleet was being replaced and Nexus would have been stuck with them until the mid-2030s, by which point the current Stadler design will no doubt be out of production and yet another new type would have been needed.

New rolling stock for the Sunderland extension would've been welcomed, and there is no issue with having different units with different life expiries. For example, if the Stadler units get delivered and they have a fault which grounds them all then we are going to be without a network till we can get them back to working order. If new stock was delivered for the extension then services would be able to continue, albeit limited as there wouldn't be that many additional units.

The main issue with fleet is that it should've all been replaced around 2010. A new fleet ordered around 2004/2005 with full new sets in service by 2010, not sending off the current life-expired sets for another refurbishment in 2010.

 

[hacman]

The electrification used on the Sunderland line is largely the same as that used on the rest of the Metro network. Non-standard for the UK in that it's 1.5kV DC, but no more non standard that what's used on the rest of the Metro network.

This is exactly my point - it's non-standard compared to everything else that Network Rail deal with, and as such, there is not the same stock of parts that you'd normally have. And Metro as a whole is the only system in the UK that uses this form of electrification - that's about as non-standard as it gets!

Indeed when there were issues a few years ago, it resulted in the line being partly closed for several weeks while hardware was sourced to perform repairs, and Network Rail even stated in the press at the time that they were not exactly happy with how it was designed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have just noticed on a picture of these that unlike say London Underground, there do not appear to be any overhead grab rails in the saloon, which means that standing would not be feasible in between the seats. Does this not completely negate the point of side facing seats? Seems a significant flaw to me and easily fixed too.

 

[Volvictof]

I have just noticed on a picture of these that unlike say London Underground, there do not appear to be any overhead grab rails in the saloon, which means that standing would not be feasible in between the seats. Does this not completely negate the point of side facing seats? Seems a significant flaw to me and easily fixed too.

if rumours are to be believed there is a good reason for this. T&W metro has a pretty big problem with the windows being kicked out by kids. Unfortunately they can’t make the windows any harder to kick out as this is actually a safety feature to allow emergency egress so they instead have taken away any points near windows onto which you can grab onto and swing your feet at the windows. (This is how the kids are doing it). This does leave 2 problems in my mind; how do the passengers safely stand up during the journey and how do you kick the windows out in a real emergency? Both of these I’m sure will have been thought of by the designers… you’d hope.

 

[Meerkat]

if rumours are to be believed there is a good reason for this. T&W metro has a pretty big problem with the windows being kicked out by kids. Unfortunately they can’t make the windows any harder to kick out as this is actually a safety feature to allow emergency egress so they instead have taken away any points near windows onto which you can grab onto and swing your feet at the windows. (This is how the kids are doing it). This does leave 2 problems in my mind; how do the passengers safely stand up during the journey and how do you kick the windows out in a real emergency? Both of these I’m sure will have been thought of by the designers… you’d hope.

That does go back to Bletcheyite's question though - if you cant stand in the big space what is the point of longitudinal seating.
And how have they let things get so out of control that they can't stop people kicking out windows! It can't be any rougher than some of the areas the London Overground and Underground go through surely?!

 

[DanNCL]

I have just noticed on a picture of these that unlike say London Underground, there do not appear to be any overhead grab rails in the saloon, which means that standing would not be feasible in between the seats. Does this not completely negate the point of side facing seats? Seems a significant flaw to me and easily fixed too.

The new Metro fleet will have vertical grab rails every 2-3 seats which should mean that most of the standing space has access to a grab rail. Whilst not ideal, it still offers an improvement over the current fleet.

if rumours are to be believed there is a good reason for this. T&W metro has a pretty big problem with the windows being kicked out by kids. Unfortunately they can’t make the windows any harder to kick out as this is actually a safety feature to allow emergency egress so they instead have taken away any points near windows onto which you can grab onto and swing your feet at the windows. (This is how the kids are doing it). This does leave 2 problems in my mind; how do the passengers safely stand up during the journey and how do you kick the windows out in a real emergency? Both of these I’m sure will have been thought of by the designers… you’d hope.

This is true, although this is largely enabled by the design of the existing fleet with it's bus-style window seals. The new fleet will have proper rail standard window seals, which will make it a lot more difficult for the trouble makers to kick the windows out, but will still be able to be kicked out in an emergency with, say, an item of heavy luggage.

And how have they let things get so out of control that they can't stop people kicking out windows! It can't be any rougher than some of the areas the London Overground and Underground go through surely?!

Metro passes through some very rough areas, but the problem is ultimately down to the lack of staffing on Metro and the design of the window seals on the present fleet. The London Underground has a staff presence at every station which largely deters anti social behaviour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The new Metro fleet will have vertical grab rails every 2-3 seats which should mean that most of the standing space has access to a grab rail. Whilst not ideal, it still offers an improvement over the current fleet.

Is there a reason a continuous overhead rail can't be fitted as it is on London Underground trains?

 

[DanNCL]

Is there a reason a continuous overhead rail can't be fitted as it is on London Underground trains?

Yes, as @Volvictof explained a few posts back, to remove the problem of kids swinging on them to kick the windows out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if rumours are to be believed there is a good reason for this. T&W metro has a pretty big problem with the windows being kicked out by kids. Unfortunately they can’t make the windows any harder to kick out as this is actually a safety feature to allow emergency egress so they instead have taken away any points near windows onto which you can grab onto and swing your feet at the windows. (This is how the kids are doing it). This does leave 2 problems in my mind; how do the passengers safely stand up during the journey and how do you kick the windows out in a real emergency? Both of these I’m sure will have been thought of by the designers… you’d hope.

Why do the windows need to be able to be kicked out for egress, out of interest? The mainline has moved away from this approach, with hammers etc removed. With short vehicles with plenty of doors which presumably have egress handles, surely this is not necessary?

 

[trebor79]

That does go back to Bletcheyite's question though - if you cant stand in the big space what is the point of longitudinal seating.
And how have they let things get so out of control that they can't stop people kicking out windows! It can't be any rougher than some of the areas the London Overground and Underground go through surely?!

London Underground stations are almost always staffed, so it's relatively more difficult for miscreants to escape after carrying out some vandalism.
Also, have you travelled on the Metro outside of the city centre? Some of the areas it serves are *properly* rough, way rougher than the crappiest bits of London I've seen (which these days never seem to be far from more genteel areas)

 

[DustyBin]

London Underground stations are almost always staffed, so it's relatively more difficult for miscreants to escape after carrying out some vandalism.
Also, have you travelled on the Metro outside of the city centre? Some of the areas it serves are *properly* rough, way rougher than the crappiest bits of London I've seen (which these days never seem to be far from more genteel areas)

The lack of staffing on the Metro network is the biggest issue I think. There’s simply no deterrent to anti-social behaviour, vandalism or even violent crime. In fact some stations present the perfect opportunity for nefarious behaviour (Gateshead Stadium and Pelaw spring immediately to mind).

The comparison with London is interesting. I spend quite a bit of time in the suburbs including what would traditionally be regarded as not particularly great areas, but you’re never far from a “millionaires row” and therefore you get a mix of people and everybody (generally) keeps themselves to themselves. In Newcastle and the surrounding area however there are large uninterrupted expanses of deprivation which are effectively no-go areas unless you’re willing to risk a confrontation (presuming you don’t blend in). It’s a different kind of “rough” I find, although the underlying issues are the same.

 

[Mikey C]

The lack of staffing on the Metro network is the biggest issue I think. There’s simply no deterrent to anti-social behaviour, vandalism or even violent crime. In fact some stations present the perfect opportunity for nefarious behaviour (Gateshead Stadium and Pelaw spring immediately to mind).

The comparison with London is interesting. I spend quite a bit of time in the suburbs including what would traditionally be regarded as not particularly great areas, but you’re never far from a “millionaires row” and therefore you get a mix of people and everybody (generally) keeps themselves to themselves. In Newcastle and the surrounding area however there are large uninterrupted expanses of deprivation which are effectively no-go areas unless you’re willing to risk a confrontation (presuming you don’t blend in). It’s a different kind of “rough” I find, although the underlying issues are the same.

London's roughest stations are probably on the National Rail network rather than the Tube. Especially with the lack of staffing and barriers (e.g. on the Southeastern network) when compared to the TfL managed stations

And even these areas are starting to go further upmarket. Kidbrooke for example is transformed from what it was 10/20 years ago

 

[the sniper]

It’s a different kind of “rough” I find, although the underlying issues are the same.

I find that there are two kinds of rough area. Ones where the local youths predominantly have 'better'/far worse things to do than messing about with the railway, but they will utilise it in the course of their activities, and those, often in my experience in former mining areas, where the local youths have literally nothing better to do than mess with the local railway (and staff). Doing so is the highlight of their day. Neither are good, but the former have little impact on the operation on the railway, until somebody gets stabbed onboard...

 

[DanNCL]

Also, have you travelled on the Metro outside of the city centre? Some of the areas it serves are *properly* rough, way rougher than the crappiest bits of London I've seen (which these days never seem to be far from more genteel areas)

Most of the *properly* rough areas in Tyneside aren’t served by Metro. Most of the “rough” areas served by Metro are relatively nice compared to parts of Newcastle’s West End.

As a Geordie I can say there have been areas of London I’ve felt less safe in than anywhere in Newcastle, but they’re few and far between.

The lack of staffing on the Metro network is the biggest issue I think. There’s simply no deterrent to anti-social behaviour, vandalism or even violent crime. In fact some stations present the perfect opportunity for nefarious behaviour (Gateshead Stadium and Pelaw spring immediately to mind).

The comparison with London is interesting. I spend quite a bit of time in the suburbs including what would traditionally be regarded as not particularly great areas, but you’re never far from a “millionaires row” and therefore you get a mix of people and everybody (generally) keeps themselves to themselves. In Newcastle and the surrounding area however there are large uninterrupted expanses of deprivation which are effectively no-go areas unless you’re willing to risk a confrontation (presuming you don’t blend in). It’s a different kind of “rough” I find, although the underlying issues are the same.

Gateshead Stadium is an unusual one. The poor design of the station makes it a hotspot for anti social behaviour, but it’s only the residential area on one side of the line that can actually be considered rough, the houses on the other side of the line are relatively modern and generally house middle class families. Pelaw and everywhere beyond on the route to South Hylton can be classed as rough.

Having been a daily user of Metro for pretty much my entire life I’m not sure I agree with your remarks about “no go” areas on Metro. There are indeed areas of Metro where anti social behaviour and even violent crime is high, but this is almost always targeted at people known to the perpetrators. Generally speaking if you were to head into those areas whilst you may well witness crime you’ll usually be left alone and as such few people consider them to be “no go” areas - that said I’d not want to take photographs in those areas as that’s asking for trouble unless you’re absolutely certain that nobody else is around.

I find that there are two kinds of rough area. Ones where the local youths predominantly have 'better'/far worse things to do than messing about with the railway, but they will utilise it in the course of their activities, and those, often in my experience in former mining areas, where the local youths have literally nothing better to do than mess with the local railway (and staff). Doing so is the highlight of their day. Neither are good, but the former have little impact on the operation on the railway, until somebody gets stabbed onboard...

Onboard stabbings have happened on Metro before. The attitude towards them from both Nexus and the Police is one that reeks of can’t be bothered. There’s a noteable lack of training for staff on how to handle such situations too. One incident I know of is when a man had stabbed a passenger (victim and perpetrator were known to each other), the perpetrator on a few occasions within the space of a couple of minutes got on and off the train, and yet the driver knowing what was going on did sod all. Obviously in such situations it isn’t safe for the driver to leave the cab, but if there was any reasonable training on how to handle such situations the drivers would know to shut the doors the second the knifeman is off the train to keep everyone onboard safe.

 

[MoleStation]

I'm really surprised about this Tyneside/London conversation about dodgy kids. Thought it would've been more Manchester/London.

My experiences of both the Metro and various London transports is they're just kids, and a lot of them. Used to call the radgy kids charvers, with an R! Anti-social behaviour is due to groups of them unless it's a disturbed individual acting on their own. They have to be part of a tribe to cause 'terror' to normal passengers.

It is kind of correct that an official presence is about the only way to combat kids asserting themselves in their territory. But then, the 'heavies' would just get a load of cheek. Nothing can be done at that point unless violence happened, then its usually too late.

We've all probably witnessed worse situations during busy times when a solo drunk/cracked/spiced individual is on a rush hour service.

I'm just wondering though..is this behaviour as common in other countries?

 

[DustyBin]

I find that there are two kinds of rough area. Ones where the local youths predominantly have 'better'/far worse things to do than messing about with the railway, but they will utilise it in the course of their activities, and those, often in my experience in former mining areas, where the local youths have literally nothing better to do than mess with the local railway (and staff). Doing so is the highlight of their day. Neither are good, but the former have little impact on the operation on the railway, until somebody gets stabbed onboard...

I agree with you here, particularly when it comes to youths living in deprivation with literally nothing better to do than cause trouble. The total lack of hope and self-worth is quite sad.

Most of the *properly* rough areas in Tyneside aren’t served by Metro. Most of the “rough” areas served by Metro are relatively nice compared to parts of Newcastle’s West End.

True, there are some tasty areas as you head to the coast via Byker (Meadow Well for example) but I tend to agree that the West End is generally “rougher”. My mate who’s originally from the West End swears it’s the other way round though, he hates the East End!

As a Geordie I can say there have been areas of London I’ve felt less safe in than anywhere in Newcastle, but they’re few and far between.

Familiarity plays a big part in this IMO.

Gateshead Stadium is an unusual one. The poor design of the station makes it a hotspot for anti social behaviour, but it’s only the residential area on one side of the line that can actually be considered rough, the houses on the other side of the line are relatively modern and generally house middle class families. Pelaw and everywhere beyond on the route to South Hylton can be classed as rough.

Having been a daily user of Metro for pretty much my entire life I’m not sure I agree with your remarks about “no go” areas on Metro. There are indeed areas of Metro where anti social behaviour and even violent crime is high, but this is almost always targeted at people known to the perpetrators. Generally speaking if you were to head into those areas whilst you may well witness crime you’ll usually be left alone and as such few people consider them to be “no go” areas - that said I’d not want to take photographs in those areas as that’s asking for trouble unless you’re absolutely certain that nobody else is around.

Sorry I wasn’t referring to the Metro network specifically. Again I was thinking of certain areas in the the West End where I’ve worked and stuck out like a sore thumb!

 

[railfan249]

It’s worth remembering when comparing the two, that TfL and indeed the south gets far more funding than Nexus and the North ever will. Staffed stations are simply not an option, however I do wonder with the introduction of the new trains whether staff may be introduced on trains, the current issue being that you require at least four staff members per train because of the split cars.

 

[Swanny200]

I have found that most of the stations from Gateshead to South Shields and South Hylton are rough, not spent enough on the northern part of the system to know whats rough there, one of the weirdest ones is Bede, right in the middle of an industrial estate but still causes trouble from youths and nefarious people

 

[Paul_10]

From my experiences(albeit not as often as I used to because I moved location), the main rough areas tended to be on the yellow line, especially the Byker-Whitley Bay section and Pelaw-South Shields. My experiences between Pelaw-Sunderland(hardly ever went between Sunderland-South Hylton so can't comment on that bit) usually involved drama free journies so surprised some would consider that as a line to avoid. Of course some stations do attract their own issues with Regent Centre I believe to be a known problem area and no doubt there is others.

If going by the metro twitter account though, the main anti social areas is the yellow line on the North side of the river and probably be somewhere to avoid after 6pm.

 

[trebor79]

.
Having been a daily user of Metro for pretty much my entire life I’m not sure I agree with your remarks about “no go” areas on Metro. There are indeed areas of Metro where anti social behaviour and even violent crime is high, but this is almost always targeted at people known to the perpetrators. Generally speaking if you were to head into those areas whilst you may well witness crime you’ll usually be left alone and as such few people consider them to be “no go” areas - that said I’d not want to take photographs in those areas as that’s asking for trouble unless you’re absolutely certain that nobody else is around.

Agree. I used to regularly walk from either Shiremoor or Percy Main to Middle Engine Lane and never had a problem, though I always made a conscious effort to avoid any eye contact with people who looked like they were the sort who would take any excuse for a punch up.
Used to have periodic issues with kids stoning the steam train or running about the track. An "unfortunate" problem with an injector at just the wrong moment usually saw them off!