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Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

ModernRailways

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if rumours are to be believed there is a good reason for this. T&W metro has a pretty big problem with the windows being kicked out by kids. Unfortunately they can’t make the windows any harder to kick out as this is actually a safety feature to allow emergency egress so they instead have taken away any points near windows onto which you can grab onto and swing your feet at the windows. (This is how the kids are doing it). This does leave 2 problems in my mind; how do the passengers safely stand up during the journey and how do you kick the windows out in a real emergency? Both of these I’m sure will have been thought of by the designers… you’d hope.

Not at all, windows are kicked out, and occasionally the seals fail. It's a design limitation on the current fleet whereby the windows are basically helped in by a piece of rubber. The new fleet will have the windows essentially as part of the body so kicking them out will take some doing. In an emergency, evacuation will be done via a door, same as at present.

It’s worth remembering when comparing the two, that TfL and indeed the south gets far more funding than Nexus and the North ever will. Staffed stations are simply not an option, however I do wonder with the introduction of the new trains whether staff may be introduced on trains, the current issue being that you require at least four staff members per train because of the split cars.

All staff on the system work in pairs (or should) and generally don't perform revenue duties if it is just two. Of course if there's anti-social behaviour on the other carriage to two staff then it'll be missed at present whereas on the new stock it won't.

From my experiences(albeit not as often as I used to because I moved location), the main rough areas tended to be on the yellow line, especially the Byker-Whitley Bay section and Pelaw-South Shields. My experiences between Pelaw-Sunderland(hardly ever went between Sunderland-South Hylton so can't comment on that bit) usually involved drama free journies so surprised some would consider that as a line to avoid. Of course some stations do attract their own issues with Regent Centre I believe to be a known problem area and no doubt there is others.

If going by the metro twitter account though, the main anti social areas is the yellow line on the North side of the river and probably be somewhere to avoid after 6pm.

There are particular hotspots around Meadow Well and North Shields, but the majority of the rest of the system is fine and sees little spurts of anti-social behaviour every now and again but nothing major, the line down to South Hylton is generally fine but if they see staff some of them will then decide to act up but that's more of a staffing issue as that line is very rarely staffed especially in evenings.

The main issue is there's a lot of teens with nothing better to do, especially at the minute. The trains are warm and it's an easy meeting place for friends so why not just ride around. The majority aren't bad, but you get the odd group who will try and act tough and they cause damage. Since they've figured out that they can kick out windows very easily they just keep doing it, likely to prove to their mates they're not to be messed with :rolleyes: The big issue is lack of funding, the Metro Police Unit has ~9 officers to cover the entire network 24/7 (not including annual leave/sickness etc), you then have the lack of Metro staff and the majority of staff, including drivers, now being new so not fully up to speed on dealing with these types of things.
 
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Killingworth

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Two people isn't enough to do ticket checks? Is this Tyneside or Mogadishu?!
To be fair, when checking a 2 unit train 4 are needed to cover both, especially when busy. Although I understood playing classical music at stations discouraged loitering!

Haven't we strayed a bit from topic?
 

Meerkat

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To be fair, when checking a 2 unit train 4 are needed to cover both, especially when busy. Although I understood playing classical music at stations discouraged loitering!

Haven't we strayed a bit from topic?
I was about to say that it is on topic that Tynesiders inability to behave themselves had lead to a sub-optimal design, but vertical handholds are presumably preferable for shorter folk (and mean fewer raised armpits for everyone!)
 

Killingworth

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I was about to say that it is on topic that Tynesiders inability to behave themselves had lead to a sub-optimal design, but vertical handholds are presumably preferable for shorter folk (and mean fewer raised armpits for everyone!)
Born north of the Tyne I have to restrain myself from comments about Sunderland, but I totally agree with their dislike of the intended seating layout. Rattling along from there up to Newcastle the majority of users will be less than impressed with the new units, and I'm not sure the layout will reduce anti-social behaviour.

However, I've had many journeys on the Metro when busy and quiet. I must have been lucky on routes and times for I've never witnessed any of the apalling behaviour that some posts may suggest is the norm. It isn't, most of the time.
 

DustyBin

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Born north of the Tyne I have to restrain myself from comments about Sunderland, but I totally agree with their dislike of the intended seating layout. Rattling along from there up to Newcastle the majority of users will be less than impressed with the new units, and I'm not sure the layout will reduce anti-social behaviour.

However, I've had many journeys on the Metro when busy and quiet. I must have been lucky on routes and times for I've never witnessed any of the apalling behaviour that some posts may suggest is the norm. It isn't, most of the time.

I get that the new layout is better suited to short rush hour journeys, but even commuting into the core from the coast isn't going to be great (even less so Sunderland). You're never going to please everybody but going for all longitudinal seating is a mistake IMO and for many will detract from the other improvements offered by the new units.
 

507020

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I get that the new layout is better suited to short rush hour journeys, but even commuting into the core from the coast isn't going to be great (even less so Sunderland). You're never going to please everybody but going for all longitudinal seating is a mistake IMO and for many will detract from the other improvements offered by the new units.
Having just looked at the data sheet I have just realised it is ALL longitudinal seating. I don’t know why but I thought they were getting a mixture. What are the chances of them getting airline seating in a refurbishment?
 

Bletchleyite

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Having just looked at the data sheet I have just realised it is ALL longitudinal seating. I don’t know why but I thought they were getting a mixture. What are the chances of them getting airline seating in a refurbishment?

Zero, as longitudinal was preferred in surveys, I believe.

It's interesting, as Merseyrail is a very similar system and the survey there asked for some airline seats rather than all facing, but the idea of longitudinal was not popular.
 

DustyBin

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Having just looked at the data sheet I have just realised it is ALL longitudinal seating. I don’t know why but I thought they were getting a mixture. What are the chances of them getting airline seating in a refurbishment?

It really should be a mixture. As for whether it will ever be changed, I suppose if there are enough complaints they may consider it but they're adamant it should be all longitudinal as it stands!

Zero, as longitudinal was preferred in surveys, I believe.

It's interesting, as Merseyrail is a very similar system and the survey there asked for some airline seats rather than all facing, but the idea of longitudinal was not popular.

You're right as far as I'm aware, but whether the survey was truly representative I've no idea. Also I think the reality of standing for 30 minute plus journeys twice a day may change a few minds, accepting of course that some people would be standing regardless.
 

Killingworth

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It really should be a mixture. As for whether it will ever be changed, I suppose if there are enough complaints they may consider it but they're adamant it should be all longitudinal as it stands!



You're right as far as I'm aware, but whether the survey was truly representative I've no idea. Also I think the reality of standing for 30 minute plus journeys twice a day may change a few minds, accepting of course that some people would be standing regardless.
The surveys would probably have been dominated by the much larger numbers making shorter trips near to Newcastle. Going from the city centre out as far as Goforth I'd usually expect to stand half the time anyway. Going to Sunderland, the airport or all the way to Whitley Bay I'd want a seat, and one facing forward or back if possible.

I still can't see why a mix couldn't have been specified, but that ship seems to have sailed a long time ago. Standees!
 

Mikey C

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Zero, as longitudinal was preferred in surveys, I believe.

It's interesting, as Merseyrail is a very similar system and the survey there asked for some airline seats rather than all facing, but the idea of longitudinal was not popular.
I imagine a bit of a "Yes Minister" style survey...

Would you prefer
a) Longitudinal seating, meaning more people can get on and an open airy interior, or
b) Transverse seating, meaning fewer people can get on and people being left behind on cold, dingy platforms...
 

Meerkat

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If you are going the long distance then you are likely to get a seat as you are near the start of the trip, and presumably it will empty out so that you dont have to stand all the way back if you dont bag a seat.
The through gangways cut both ways if there is that much ASB - you are more open for other people to see, but the whole train is subject to noisy loutishness.
 

Paul_10

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I also think it's down to passenger selfishness with respect we want more avaliable standing room at peak times. Of course this was all before covid and who knows if we will ever get back to the levels that we were used too.

There will be a load of complaints about the lack of seats at first but then people will get used to it. I do feel it should of been a mixture really and I'm really not a fan of allowing bikes on the Metro, if people(sorry mostly teens) can't be bothered to cycle fairly short distances then that is there problem. Could easily add some extra seats instead wasting a large space for bikes.
 

DanNCL

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What are the chances of them getting airline seating in a refurbishment?
Nothing to say it couldn't happen in a refurbishment, indeed the majority of the longitudinal seats appear to be entirely supported by the wall rather than having anything underneath to support them so it should be quite simple to sort out in the future.

I imagine a bit of a "Yes Minister" style survey...

Would you prefer
a) Longitudinal seating, meaning more people can get on and an open airy interior, or
b) Transverse seating, meaning fewer people can get on and people being left behind on cold, dingy platforms...
A slightly more diplomatic version of that indeed, I remember filling in the survey a few years ago.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is a shame a mixed layout like London Underground S-stock or 345s wasn't offered, I think that offers the best of both worlds on this sort of service.

Mind you I also find it odd that London Overground aren't the same.
 

ModernRailways

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I also think it's down to passenger selfishness with respect we want more avaliable standing room at peak times. Of course this was all before covid and who knows if we will ever get back to the levels that we were used too.

There will be a load of complaints about the lack of seats at first but then people will get used to it. I do feel it should of been a mixture really and I'm really not a fan of allowing bikes on the Metro, if people(sorry mostly teens) can't be bothered to cycle fairly short distances then that is there problem. Could easily add some extra seats instead wasting a large space for bikes.
The bike space is not just there for bikes, it's multi-use so can be used by pushchairs, luggage etc.

Having just looked at the data sheet I have just realised it is ALL longitudinal seating. I don’t know why but I thought they were getting a mixture. What are the chances of them getting airline seating in a refurbishment?
If the middle car had no doors and all doors where on the front 2 and last 2 cars then this would've been perfect for some airline style. In the current design airline with higher backs should've been put behind the wheelchair sections that have the bigger spacing between doors, people typically won't stand in the gangway when it's airline unless necessary, it would also minimise the number of people standing in this area which will increase dwell times.

If it was a mix would be similar to the S8 Stock on London Underground (the S7 stock is entirely longitudinal).
I've attached a copy of the planned internal layout, as well how it maybe should be (Stockholm C30 stock).
 

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Mikey C

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The bike space is not just there for bikes, it's multi-use so can be used by pushchairs, luggage etc.


If the middle car had no doors and all doors where on the front 2 and last 2 cars then this would've been perfect for some airline style. In the current design airline with higher backs should've been put behind the wheelchair sections that have the bigger spacing between doors, people typically won't stand in the gangway when it's airline unless necessary, it would also minimise the number of people standing in this area which will increase dwell times.

If it was a mix would be similar to the S8 Stock on London Underground (the S7 stock is entirely longitudinal).
I've attached a copy of the planned internal layout, as well how it maybe should be (Stockholm C30 stock).
The C30 stock definitely resembles the S8 stock, both being Movias. I guess the S8 is the nearest thing London has to a "standard" metro train.

A much better layout, as it enables more seating, yet there's still plenty of space for standing and circulation
 

hacman

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I imagine a bit of a "Yes Minister" style survey...

Would you prefer
a) Longitudinal seating, meaning more people can get on and an open airy interior, or
b) Transverse seating, meaning fewer people can get on and people being left behind on cold, dingy platforms...

This is exactly what happened.

The survey displayed a few layouts in the context of the existing vehicles (each image showed a single unit), and the mixed option had bus style seating rather than bays of 4. It was by no means a well-conducted survey. The survey also didn't allude to the fact that if Nexus opted for single unit formations in the new fleet additional space would be created by removing the gap between units and extra cabs, the fact that the new fleet could have been made slightly longer if needed, or the fact that the new trains were to represent an effective increase in the size of the fleet. All this results in introducing further bias into the research, as a good number of respondents will be familiar with the current (pre-pandemic) situation where some trains are full and standing to the point that they leave people behind during rush hour.

The excuses Nexus gave about the linear seating helping to reduce antisocial behaviour were also complete nonsense, as anyone who uses the tube will be familiar with - you still get people blocking multiple seats, putting their feet up, etc.

It's a shame, but it's what we're now stuck with.

if rumours are to be believed there is a good reason for this. T&W metro has a pretty big problem with the windows being kicked out by kids. Unfortunately they can’t make the windows any harder to kick out as this is actually a safety feature to allow emergency egress so they instead have taken away any points near windows onto which you can grab onto and swing your feet at the windows. (This is how the kids are doing it). This does leave 2 problems in my mind; how do the passengers safely stand up during the journey and how do you kick the windows out in a real emergency? Both of these I’m sure will have been thought of by the designers… you’d hope.

With regards to the window issue, the new fleet will have proper double glazed windows with far more solid seals and will be far more difficult to kick out or break. Egress via windows of a train is now widely regarded in the industry as ineffective and unneeded, especially on units with multiple doors along the body of short cars. The reports from accidents including the Sandilands tram crash (and others on the mainline) have routinely highlighted that breakable windows actually represent a severe danger to passengers in the event of an accident, and that vehicle design should be approached such that any windows should stay intact and not break so to as to keep passengers inside the vehicle and debris out.

In an emergency, you exit via the doors, or via the gangway into the adjacent car. There are very few situations where egress from a window would genuinely be a wise choice. The single glazed windows on the current fleet wasn't a safety measure as such, it was just representative of the "light" build quality of these trains. Again, egress via the doors was always the intended option, with the opening windows and emergency door release controls being positioned such that the handle could be pulled from outside with a pole if needed.

Overhead grab rails are also not considered good design, as they are difficult to keep hold of in the event of sudden deceleration, and many shorter people or children just can't reach them. Vertical bars spaced regularly between the seats is the best approach. In vehicles with low ceilings such as these, they also represent an additional hazard for taller people!
 

philthetube

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To be fair, when checking a 2 unit train 4 are needed to cover both, especially when busy. Although I understood playing classical music at stations discouraged loitering!

Haven't we strayed a bit from topic?
Maybe the option should be there for it to be played on the trains as well
 

jh64

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Progress! Photos from the factory:

SnvAI09.jpg


Ys8xYGm.jpg



 

stuu

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Surprising how the livery is an exact match for the gantry crane!
 

DanNCL

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The first two units are complete at Stadler’s St Margrethen site in Switzerland. On the national network they are numbered 555001-555046, internally on Metro they are numbered 5001-5046. Unlike the present fleet, the full six digit TOPS numbers are displayed externally on the new units.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Eeek! Looking at those pictures... Is there a Worldwide shortage of seats or something? Or is the plan just to ration the seats on the Tyne and Wear trains, so they can charge extra for the select few passengers who manage to sit down? o_O
 

chiltern trev

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Eeek! Looking at those pictures... Is there a Worldwide shortage of seats or something? Or is the plan just to ration the seats on the Tyne and Wear trains, so they can charge extra for the select few passengers who manage to sit down? o_O
Nexus ran a public consultation on what the public wanted - that was the answer.

Not what I personally would have wanted as I like to get a seat but short distance metro style seating won.
 

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