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Discussion in 'Other Public Transport' started by swt_passenger, 22 Nov 2017.
Tyne Wear Metro fleet replacement funding confirmed in budget today, at £337 million.
A very big win for Metro, Nexus and the region today with the decision to give a direct grant for the new rolling stock!
Yes. One in the eye for those who thought NEXUS wouldn’t be trusted with the money.
Not really one in the eye...most of us still won't trust them with the money.
But they've got it and that's the big thing here.
One thing to note is that isn't the full amount they asked for and also no mention of funding for either a new or refurbished depot. That money has to go a long way
Do hope one of the plans for this new fleet that will be scrapped will be the longitudinal seating, I never see the trains get so rammed that more standing space needs to be provided with the exception of the Great North Run, Sunderland Airshow and match days so I don't think we need to go down route personally.
I be shocked if we see one new train by the end of 2021 as there is usually delays in big projects like this(and new trains usually have teething troubles also), I do expect full fleet replacement to be completed by 2023-2025 like the original plan though. Going to be interesting how they sort out these replacements, would imagine 1 new set in, 1 going out for scrap and it will be interesting too see if its going to be 84 new units or perhaps even less than that as 142094 says, they did not recieve as much as they would of like. Nevertheless, good too see the future of the Metro is more secured now.
This funding for new trains is well overdue, it's just a shame that it isn't quite as much money as Nexus were after. Seeing as we've been promised new trains before though, I'll believe we're getting new trains once the order has been placed
From what I've seen the £337 million will be boosted by another (circa.) £20 million from the local councils and I also believe Nexus are still discussing/considering adding to the funds with a potential PFI deal. This money is very short term focused in my view, there is no room for system expansion as we simply won't have the stock.
Longitudinal seating is the preferred option, and I believe the preferred option is a similar layout to the S8 Stock with longitudinal and some seats of 4. Longitudinal simply provides more space, and it isn't just standing space, but space for those with accessibility needs to move around a lot easier - most wheelchairs right now cannot get down the gangway, for example.
It will all depend on what the next steps are and how quick Nexus can be. One thing I saw mentioned was that there are quite a few Metro designs we could use 'off the shelf' and have tweaked and that would bring cost down as it wouldn't require a brand new train design. Another thing thrown around in the office was 'well that's good, not enough for new trains but we can get that fourth life refurbishment in'
The plans are very much still the same from what I heard, just with a few cutbacks (possibly less trains, no new depot). I am curious as to see the next steps, and I'll keep you updated if I hear anything (as I'm sure any others will do).
A lot of the German Stadtbahns run similar vehicles, albeit with a different supply voltage. And there are a lot of similarities to the DLR vehicles TfL is just going out to tender for.
The original Metrocars were based on the trams used in Germany- Metro-Cammell tried to brand the Metrocars as trams- and a similar idea again would work well. It doesn't need to be a heavy rail vehicle for trundling around Tyneside at 40mph.
It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.
It would maybe be useful to have at least a "tram-train" crash worthiness (whatever that turns out to be), for the Pelaw - Sunderland section? AIUI there are special signalling rules in place when a heavy rail DMU is following behind a Metro unit, is it double blocking?
Surely it only needs a refurbishment of the existing depot? Sometimes new stock comes with new depot facilities to be sure but most of the time the existing depots soldier on.
Yes I'd say that would be good as would it for them to have the capability to be dual voltage in the future so potentially the Durham Coast could get wired at 25kV AC. Yes it isn't on the horizon right now but considering the life of stock on the TW Metro (most if it will be over 40 years old by the time it's replaced) it would be nice if they could be set up for easy conversion later in life.
Yes double blocking is used as far as I'm aware to make sure that Metrocars come nowhere near a heavy rail vehicle. To be honest I think its one of the few times where if I was going to be on a train in a collision with another train I'd rather be in a 142 give a TW Metrocar as an alternative!
The intention is to procure dual voltage stock. NEXUS have said that they will need to demolish and rebuild the depot to prepare for the new stock as a refurb wouldn't actually achieve anything. The intention is to do this in stages so that there's always some maintenance facility available. They are looking at 2 temporary stabling locations, with one being at Walkergate.
I see. Well a dedicated depot for the new fleet will probably help reliability in any case it just finding the money to afford it!
Tram Train standard stock would presumably negate the need for double blocking, which would create extra capacity on the heavy rail section immediately.
I would assume so (I've not heard that they're doing anything like double blocking for Rotherham)! That being said I assume it would require some back end work at Tyneside IECC to remove the protection.
Would a variant of Stadler's new Merseyrail units be appropriate? It would also be good to see a Hitachi bid too, with their factory just a few miles down the road.
I personally think that units similar to the Stadler Merseyrail units would be ideal for the metro; though I'd also be interested to see if CAF offer anything, seeing as they'll have their new UK factory and the Metro order will be quite a large one
Completely agree, the new Merseyrail units definitely do look nice, the interior would be completely different for Metro however.
I very much doubt we'll see Hitachi bid, I'm keeping my eye on AdTranz as they've been producing some good Metro units recently - but Brexit could cause some issues as we won't be receiving this stock till 2021 so there may import costs etc. to consider.
Double blocking however a Metro can be signalled into the block directly behind a heavy rail service where the Metro Indusi speed magnets are located, such as Sunderland. All signals are fitted with TPWS on the shared section as well, and special arrangements are needed if a train that has AWS/TPWS inoperative has to travel over the line.
Still think £337 million isn't anywhere near enough for the new fleet, depot improvements and creating these new outstabling depots. Time will tell
£337m will pay for a like-for-like replacement, but nothing extra. I'm guessing that the Government are pushing Nexus towards a build-and-maintain contract that they so adore on the main line. The new depots can be built by the train builder, to be paid for handsomely in years to come...
The figure being spent is actually £362 million, with the rest being contributed by the local councils.
The figure from Government is £337 million. The councils are then topping that up by £25 million as 'local investment'. There is still the possibility of more funding from private sources, however it's unlikely we'll see any.
Nexus' cost estimates put the original project at £435 million, this was then revised down to £362 million. I believe it was as time has gone on they've done a detailed spec sheet and seeing what other similar stock has cost and in turn revising the figure down. They claim it won't affect service levels or the number of trains.
I'm skeptical of them being able to afford what they've planned, this is Nexus and they sure do know how to make money vanish.
Nexus will (hopefully!) have asked for more than they needed, but their cost controls aren't always the best.
But if they can buy off the shelf, it shouldn't be too bad.
I think i saw that rather than replacing 90 2 car sets as at present the replacement will be 48? 4 car sets, so that actually equates to an increase in trains in some roundabout sort of way. You would imagine 48 four car trains would work out cheaper than buying 90 new two car sets so the 300 million will go further.
Nexus have suggested that they may purchase 4 car trains as opposed to 2 car trains, however there has been no mention from Nexus about how many 4 car trains would be purchased if they were to go down that road; all publicity seems to state 84 2 car trains, so if they were to go for the 4 car option then it may be more likely that its only 42 trains that would be purchased (overall decrease in trains as even when the unrefurbished "reserve" fleet of 4001/02/40/83 is excluded, that's still the equivalent of one 4 car train less than the current fleet).
No point in buying 4 car sets as 90% of platforms are not long enough to take 4 car sets. So that would require platform lengthening and upgrading monitors and mirrors, money which they do not have.
We mean the length of two of the current metrocars (which many of us consider to be 4 cars long due to the articulated sections; so 2 cars per metrocar)
The platforms can all take 60m trains IIRC, so I guess the choice is whether you have 2x30m trains (roughly as now) or 1x60m train. It's been donkeys years since the Metro ran a single unit in service, and you get more capacity on one longer unit than two shorter ones, so the obvious choice is 40-45 60m trains.
Nexus will probably go and choose 240 10m trains or something, just you see.
AdTranz is a Bombardier company now, and they probably are in a good place to bid assuming capacity at the appropriate works.
I'd expect likely bidders to be:
Hitachi (via their Italian arm, previously Ansaldo)
Perhaps a few smaller tram producers, such as Kinki Sharyo, Hyundai Rotem, etc, probably depending on what the economic outcomes from Brexit look like
The replacement MerseyRail units do have a number of similarities in requirements to ours; dual voltage, increase in capacity without major platform extensions, etc. Sadly they're, along with anything of similar quality, likely to be out of our price range, given the low ambitions of Nexus when setting the spec they bid for funding against.
To be perfectly honest, this is a very disappointing announcement in my eyes, as we've basically been given less funding than was asked for, based on a less-for-like order, which unless some innovation or ambition is injected by the manufacturer, seems likely to be a direct replacement with a slightly updated design, and some "shineys" like WiFi and AC thrown in to try and appease passengers.