Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[DaveLondon]

Arriva also has Wright bodied Volvo B8RLE on order for Hemel and Stevenage at least. David

 

[jammy36]

Dublin Bus from the early 90s until 2008 ordered nothing but Alexander based Volvo products and there is a thought that they could go back there again for a similar combination if ADL are keen enough to build large numbers of vehicles on Volvo chassis (and that's a big if) It's unlikely they'll go down the ADL integral route.

Were any of the 90s/00s Alexander deliveries bodied at Falkirk or were they all Alexander (Belfast) products - i.e. the former Potters business?

Of course ADL have already bodied B5LH chassis as well as the B8Ls in their MMC range, so presumably wouldn't be a big job to adapt the body for B5TL framing if the right order came in...

 

[cnjb8]

LOTS have reported today (on their news page on lots.org.uk) that Arriva Southern Counties are taking 28 Streetlites for Hemel Hempstead, and Arriva Yorkshire are due a batch of Streetdecks for the 110 (presumably between 14-18 as usual for that route). Are there more Streetlites due as well as these?

What is LOTS?

Arriva also has Wright bodied Volvo B8RLE on order for Hemel and Stevenage at least. David

That's unexpected. Does anyone have any more info?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Of course ADL have already bodied B5LH chassis as well as the B8Ls in their MMC range, so presumably wouldn't be a big job to adapt the body for B5TL framing if the right order came in...

There will not be any more full diesel's being ordered for Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or Go-Ahead Ireland, so what they do on the B5TL is not really going to be of their concern, their biggest concern is always going to be their lack of support network so they will need to rely on a chassis partner or build a support network to support their own integral products.

There's also a small part of winning a tender and generally the parties who tender are the chassis builder or an integral manufacturer. Volvo have won virtually all the tenders for double deckers in Ireland for the best part of a decade and have always subcontracted the bodywork to Wrights and generally see ADL as their biggest rival so they would far rather be supplying Wright with a chassis than ADL.

ADL's best chance is that Wright decide they are going to not partner with Volvo for the upcoming tender and instead they are going to pitch the StreetDeck hybrid. That would probably result in a marriage of convenience between ADL and Volvo to see off the challenge of the Wright integral, since realistically Volvo couldn't partner with anyone else.

You have to remember in Ireland everything on non commercial bus services has to be the result of a tender, so nobody can just go out and buy Enviro 400MMC bodied B5LHs and if Wright partner with Volvo in the tender it's hard to see ADL getting a look in unless it's with an integral product and they invest seriously in a support network for it.

 

[mbonwick]

What is LOTS?

London Omnibus Traction Society - http://www.lots.org.uk/

 

[cnjb8]

There will not be any more full diesel's being ordered for Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or Go-Ahead Ireland, so what they do on the B5TL is not really going to be of their concern, their biggest concern is always going to be their lack of support network so they will need to rely on a chassis partner or build a support network to support their own integral products.

There's also a small part of winning a tender and generally the parties who tender are the chassis builder or an integral manufacturer. Volvo have won virtually all the tenders for double deckers in Ireland for the best part of a decade and have always subcontracted the bodywork to Wrights and generally see ADL as their biggest rival so they would far rather be supplying Wright with a chassis than ADL.

ADL's best chance is that Wright decide they are going to not partner with Volvo for the upcoming tender and instead they are going to pitch the StreetDeck hybrid. That would probably result in a marriage of convenience between ADL and Volvo to see off the challenge of the Wright integral, since realistically Volvo couldn't partner with anyone else.

You have to remember in Ireland everything on non commercial bus services has to be the result of a tender, so nobody can just go out and buy Enviro 400MMC bodied B5LHs and if Wright partner with Volvo in the tender it's hard to see ADL getting a look in unless it's with an integral product and they invest seriously in a support network for it.

Volvo partner with MCV. They have already sluppied in Ireland too.

London Omnibus Traction Society - http://www.lots.org.uk/

Thanks

 

[F Great Eastern]

Volvo partner with MCV. They have already sluppied in Ireland too.

So you are saying that MCV have a body for the B5LH that they can produce 120-150 a year of?

 

[mbonwick]

Although it would require an increase in production, MCV would be more than capable of delivering 150 EvoSetis per year if they wanted to.
Worth noting they've deliberately been keeping their production rates relatively low...

 

[F Great Eastern]

Although it would require an increase in production, MCV would be more than capable of delivering 150 EvoSetis per year if they wanted to.
Worth noting they've deliberately been keeping their production rates relatively low...

Thanks for that - I can see Volvo going with Wright though as first choice, but if Wright go for an integral in the tender it's likely Volvo would consider MCV if they could commit to the delivery schedule and other terms of the tender, since Volvo would want to use ADL as a partner in a tender as a last resort.

 

[DD12]

Sorry for being a thicko, but is there a real chance that Wrightbus could go out of business (IE - stop building buses) ??

 

[Jordan Adam]

Sorry for being a thicko, but is there a real chance that Wrightbus could go out of business (IE - stop building buses) ??

It is a possibility, although i don't see it likely.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sorry for being a thicko, but is there a real chance that Wrightbus could go out of business (IE - stop building buses) ??

Yes - or be acquired by someone else.

 

[Non Multi]

Or both, as happened to MG Rover, LDV and Marshall Bus. A foreign firm buys up the defunct company's assets and intellectual property and restarts vehicle manufacture overseas.

 

[37114]

It is a possibility, although i don't see it likely.

Depends on their level of debt, assets, liabilities and revenue. I haven't seen their financials but if they have low debt, good cash reserves, flexibility to manage operational cost (e.g. they can flex people to work 3 to 4 days per week) etc then they could weather a storm in the short term.

If they on the other hand have a sizeable debt, no cash in the bank, debts due payments and high committed fixed costs (e.g. signed a lease on a new factory which has spare capacity based on future sales projections which have not been realised) then they may struggle.

It may not be the case here but generally speaking when a business sees a reduction in volumes after a sustained period of growth it tends to be cash flow that becomes a problem as you have to pay suppliers but don't have the same level of sales coming in to sustain the outflow of cash for materials used to make products you sold 6 months ago. Pension liabilities are another killer on older businesses although this again should be less of a problem as Wrights have only been a volume producer in the last 25 years or so.

As per my earlier post I am not sure the UK&I can sustain 3 domestic suppliers (Even allowing for their international sales) so this will be a potential concern to any future investor. Optare have the weight of Ashok Leyland behind them now, while ADL having new owners puts them on a stronger footing. Wright's have to contend with, local IOI sales aside, all of their products will bear the cost of at least one ferry trip across the Irish sea when sold to the rest of the UK which won't help competitiveness.

 

[MotCO]

If they on the other hand have a sizeable debt, no cash in the bank, debts due payments and high committed fixed costs (e.g. signed a lease on a new factory which has spare capacity based on future sales projections which have not been realised) then they may struggle.

Didn't Wrights moved to new premises a couple of years back?

 

[Mikey C]

I find it hard to believe that such a high profile N Ireland business would be allowed to go under, (especially one in a strongly Unionist area) with the current political situation...

 

[37114]

I find it hard to believe that such a high profile N Ireland business would be allowed to go under, (especially one in a strongly Unionist area) with the current political situation...

If the government of the time let MG Rover go then there is no way they would bail out Wright bus, irrespective of Boris having a soft spot for them.

 

[Non Multi]

If the government of the time let MG Rover go then there is no way they would bail out Wright bus, irrespective of Boris having a soft spot for them.

Very recently Jaguar Land Rover was given a £500m investment loan guarantee thanks in part to what happened in 2000.

Back in 1999, the government didn't give BMW a requested £240m loan to rebuild the Rover plant at Longbridge, so owners BMW took the drastic decision to recoup its huge £645m losses by breaking up and selling off Rover Group the following year. Without significant investment and a major car manufacturing partner, an independent MG Rover didn't have a future. By 2004/5, the 'Phoenix 4' were desperately trying to flip the moribund MG Rover right up until it went bust.

 

[alangla]

If the government of the time let MG Rover go then there is no way they would bail out Wright bus, irrespective of Boris having a soft spot for them.

Boris has a majority of 1 at the moment. The suggestion is that Arlene Foster will twist has arm to protect DUP votes in Ballymena & keep Boris able to win votes in the commons

 

[Goldfish62]

Boris has a majority of 1 at the moment. The suggestion is that Arlene Foster will twist has arm to protect DUP votes in Ballymena & keep Boris able to win votes in the commons

That's more than plausible, especially with BoJo's links to Wright's through the New Routemaster.

 

[37114]

Boris has a majority of 1 at the moment. The suggestion is that Arlene Foster will twist has arm to protect DUP votes in Ballymena & keep Boris able to win votes in the commons

On the news today Harland & Wolf are going into administration, pleas for Government help have gone unanswered and there are strict EU guidelines around state aid. If the government can't/won't help a well known brand that is famous for building the Titanic, I am not sure how Wrightbus will be treated differently?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

On the news today Harland & Wolf are going into administration, pleas for Government help have gone unanswered and there are strict EU guidelines around state aid. If the government can't/won't help a well known brand that is famous for building the Titanic, I am not sure how Wrightbus will be treated differently?

Because there's only 130 people employed by H&W in a city of 350k against Wrightbus 1400 employees in a town of 30k

Mind you, the Tories are very much of the view that much of this is a commercial issue....

 

[carlberry]

On the news today Harland & Wolf are going into administration, pleas for Government help have gone unanswered and there are strict EU guidelines around state aid. If the government can't/won't help a well known brand that is famous for building the Titanic, I am not sure how Wrightbus will be treated differently?

They also built a few ships that actually managed to complete voyages!

 

[MotCO]

On the news today Harland & Wolf are going into administration, pleas for Government help have gone unanswered and there are strict EU guidelines around state aid. If the government can't/won't help a well known brand that is famous for building the Titanic, I am not sure how Wrightbus will be treated differently?

But once we're out of Europe, we will not be bound by EU rules on state aid. Unless we are still bound by the Customs Union and Single Market rules under the terms of any Withdrawal Agreement.

 

[37114]

Unless we are still bound by the Customs Union and Single Market rules under the terms of any Withdrawal Agreement.

Which we would be...

Without wishing to stray into the Brexit debate, I would be interested to know the impact of the various scenarios on ADL and the deal they have done to supply Enviro 500s to Berlin.

 

[Volvodart]

New Enviro400ER

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/me...-gives-electric-range-with-new-hybrid-option/

ALEXANDER DENNIS ENVIRO400ER GIVES ELECTRIC RANGE WITH NEW HYBRID OPTION
Published: 07 Aug 2019



Alexander Dennis is expanding the UK’s widest range of low and zero emission buses with the new Enviro400ER Electric Range hybrid double deck bus. Developed with BAE Systems, the Enviro400ER offers geofenced zero emission capability, making it an ideal solution for pollution hotspots in towns and cities.

Based on the series hybrid technology proven in over 1,400 Alexander Dennis hybrid buses in the UK, the new Enviro400ER provides an easy solution to meet local Ultra Low Emission Zones and zero emissions targets without the need for expensive charging infrastructure and without an impact on daily operational range.

The Enviro400ER can run for up to three miles in electric mode, with the exact distance depending on factors such as travel time and route profile. The vehicle utilises a 32kWh capacity energy storage system, comprising third generation lithium nickel manganese cobalt battery technology, as well as the same components as the latest generation Enviro400H hybrid bus. The battery does not need to be charged externally, avoiding costly infrastructure in depots or at termini.

Arthur Whiteside, Managing Director UK Sales at Alexander Dennis, says: “Improving air quality is on everyone’s agenda and Alexander Dennis supports these efforts with the market’s widest range of low and zero emission buses. Our new Electric Range option offers a highly cost-effective way of introducing zero emissions capability with no need to change operational practices.”

Ian Wilson, Director of Business Development at BAE Systems, adds: “Our proven Electric Range hybrid technology provides an innovative and practical solution that is used in thousands of buses worldwide. This system delivers low emission operation wherever there is emerging demand for clean air zones, without the complication and expense of charging infrastructure.”

Brighton & Hove is the first UK bus operator to order the Enviro400ER. 30 Electric Range hybrid buses will join the Go-Ahead Group subsidiary’s fleet later this year for use on route 5, running in zero emissions mode in the centre of Brighton

 

[cnjb8]

New Enviro400ER

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/me...-gives-electric-range-with-new-hybrid-option/

Are these the ones going to Brighton & Hove?

 

[goldisgood]

Are these the ones going to Brighton & Hove?

Yes, it says at the bottom.

Brighton & Hove is the first UK bus operator to order the Enviro400ER. 30 Electric Range hybrid buses will join the Go-Ahead Group subsidiary’s fleet later this year for use on route 5, running in zero emissions mode in the centre of Brighton

 

[Goldfish62]

Which we would be...

Without wishing to stray into the Brexit debate, I would be interested to know the impact of the various scenarios on ADL and the deal they have done to supply Enviro 500s to Berlin.

They always stated that there was an option to build some of them elsewhere in Europe. I would think that it would hasten this decision, given the large number of components that would otherwise have to be imported from the EU.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, it says at the bottom.

An excellent solution for somewhere like Brighton where they might be localised pollution issues in the town, but not when you are in the countryside and running along the coast