UK/EU joint citizenship.

[jonty14]

How many forum members have got dual citizenship because of brexit?
I am really glad that I got German citizenship 2 years ago. This will save me a lot of bother living in Germany.

 

[MattA7]

Isn’t everyone born in Northern Ireland automatically entitled to dual UK/ Irish citizenship hence the massive increase in Irish passport applications when the leave vote was announced.

 

[Elwyn]

It is true that most people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship (there are exceptions for people born here but whose parents were not legally settled). But that doesn’t have anything much to do with the surge in Irish citizenship applications.

The surge in passport applications has mostly been from British people whose parents or grandparents were born in Ireland. They want an Irish passport to be able to work in Europe without a work permit. If claiming through a grandparents birth you first have to get your father/mother’s birth in the UK registered in Ireland as an overseas birth. There’s a 1 year delay in those applications. People born in Northern Ireland don’t need to do that, which is why it’s fairly clear that the main surge is from people of Irish descent living in Britain or elsewhere, rather than from folk in NI.

 

[jon0844]

I also have dual nationality, but have not actually bothered to renew my UK passport for many years. There was no point having two.

Last time I applied, they couldn't even find my details and the application timed out so I lost my money. I have since found an old passport (it's blue - and not the new shade of blue; it's nearer black!) and may now be forced to apply again so I can have both when travelling - even though I hate the fact I now need to pay for two passports AND that I've always felt uncomfortable about carrying two passports as I can imagine some countries (especially the USA!) being very suspicious.

I have been wondering what happens if I travel on my EU passport and then get hassle returning to the UK having to prove that I'm a UK citizen. Am I supposed to seek settled status to have this added to my foreign passport? Can a UK citizen even apply for settled status?!

It's all a mess IMO.

 

[MattA7]

I also have dual nationality, but have not actually bothered to renew my UK passport for many years. There was no point having two.

Last time I applied, they couldn't even find my details and the application timed out so I lost my money. I have since found an old passport (it's blue - and not the new shade of blue; it's nearer black!) and may now be forced to apply again so I can have both when travelling - even though I hate the fact I now need to pay for two passports AND that I've always felt uncomfortable about carrying two passports as I can imagine some countries (especially the USA!) being very suspicious.

I have been wondering what happens if I travel on my EU passport and then get hassle returning to the UK having to prove that I'm a UK citizen. Am I supposed to seek settled status to have this added to my foreign passport? Can a UK citizen even apply for settled status?!

It's all a mess IMO.

You can apply for a certificate of entitlement in your foreign passport as a alternative to a UK passport. It basically looks like a visa/residence permit and proves your UK citizenship to Uk immigration officials (or anyone else who needs to verify your UK citizenship such as banks, employers etc)

more info on the certificate of entitlement

Prove you have right of abode in the UK

Having right of abode means you're allowed to live or work in the UK without any immigration restrictions - apply for a certificate of entitlement to prove you have it.

www.gov.uk

 

[JamesT]

You can apply for a certificate of entitlement in your foreign passport as a alternative to a UK passport. It basically looks like a visa/residence permit and proves your UK citizenship to Uk immigration officials (or anyone else who needs to verify your UK citizenship such as banks, employers etc)

more info on the certificate of entitlement

Prove you have right of abode in the UK

Having right of abode means you're allowed to live or work in the UK without any immigration restrictions - apply for a certificate of entitlement to prove you have it.

www.gov.uk

The certificate of entitlement appears to be even more expensive than a UK passport. Seems a lot of money to save on having two passports.

 

[Ianno87]

Isn’t everyone born in Northern Ireland automatically entitled to dual UK/ Irish citizenship hence the massive increase in Irish passport applications when the leave vote was announced.

I have an Irish passport by virtue of my Dad being born in Northern Ireland.

My wife and kids have dual German nationality due to her Dad's heritage.

 

[Elwyn]

Dual or triple nationality is commonplace. Ghislaine Maxwell who is currently in custody in the US is reported to have 4. The sensible thing to do (and I speak as a retired UK Border Control Officer) is to show the passport most relevant in terms of entry to the country you are going to. As an example, lots of Australians have both British & Australian passports and show the Australian one entering Oz and the UK one entering the UK. Lots of passengers carry 2 passports. It does not normally cause any difficulty, provided they are in the same name. (I have known people whose names have changed, perhaps through marriage or for other reason, and have documents in different names. If the name in the document doesn’t match the name the ticket was bought in etc, then difficulties can occur).

As has been commented by MattA7 you can have a certificate of entitlement in your EU passport, and that’s the best thing to do if entering the UK on that document with the intention of remaining for any length of time or for anything other than a short visit. But you will have to pay for the Certificate of Entitlement. It’s expensive and if you already have a UK passport, then you may not feel that’s not worth doing.

The US and one or two other countries (Kenya & India spring to mind) used to have laws that did not allow dual citizenship and so if they found one of their citizens had acquired another nationality they could forfeit the original one. (There was a little more to it than that, but in essence that was the rule). But that was a problem there if you held one of those nationalities and their authorities found out. However the UK has never had any such restrictions, and neither do most countries.

But carrying two passports is not in itself an issue when travelling in and out of the UK. (Some British people have more than one valid British passport, never mind a different nationality).

 

[MattA7]

The US allows dual nationality (and always has as far as I know) however US citizens must enter and leave the US on their US passport- not doing so is a federal offense. Borris Johnson got into bother a few years back because he tried to enter the US on his British passport and the immigration officer saw that New York was his place of birth. I think Winston Churchill also had dual US/UK citizenship because his mother was American.

 

[etr221]

Germany was another country that did not permit dual citizenship (but it now does)

Something I wonder about is how many citizenships (a) someone might have , or (b) might have a right to have (these are not the same, some countries let you claim citizenship if X, Y and Z, but won't give it automatically), simply by being born somewhere, to some parents, or just by marrying someone, or just living somewhere on some date, without having to go through any naturalisation process.

 

[Elwyn]

The US allows dual nationality (and always has as far as I know) however US citizens must enter and leave the US on their US passport- not doing so is a federal offense. Borris Johnson got into bother a few years back because he tried to enter the US on his British passport and the immigration officer saw that New York was his place of birth. I think Winston Churchill also had dual US/UK citizenship because his mother was American.

I said there was more to the issue, because I wanted to avoid getting bogged down in detail, but since you are evidently interested, a key difference was between nationality by descent and nationality acquired by naturalisation. So Boris born in New York would be American by birth and British by descent (his father being British born). In that situation the US authorities would not have objected to dual citizenship, but where they did get most agitated was if a US born citizen became naturalized as a citizen of another country. I personally recall dealing with several cases where a US born citizen had a US passport application refused for that specific reason. The US may well have changed the law as my experience was over 20 years ago, but at one time it was a major issue. (Americans married to a British person and settled in the UK would nearly always avoid becoming naturalized for this reason).

Boris had a reverse problem too, in that as a US citizen he was liable to pay US taxes on his income from anywhere in the world, even though he didn’t live there. He reportedly got around that by formally renouncing his US citizenship.

 

[Journeyman]

I applied for Irish citizenship, and subsequently a passport, in 2017. My grandfather was born in Dublin, and I was very pleasantly surprised when I discovered that was enough. I had to do a bit of preparation, which involved getting a copy of his birth certificate from the Irish authorities, and his marriage and death certificates from the UK (he lived his entire adult life here). Then I had to supply my mum's birth certificate and marriage certificate and my birth certificate to prove my ancestry. That got me on the Foreign Births Register as an Irish citizen. Cost me about 300 quid and a couple of months to sort out, all told. You need a solicitor to witness the signing of various forms, but I had a suitably qualified work colleague at the time who was happy to do it for me, so I didn't need to pay for that.

I now have both Irish and UK passports, but as Irish citizens have unlimited rights to live and work in the UK, I'll probably let my UK passport lapse, as (a) it now gives me far fewer rights and (b) I'm not buying into the hype about them being blue. The only thing I I currently use my UK passport for is ID, but pretty much everywhere is happy to accept the Irish one for that as well.

First time I travelled on my Irish passport was to Ukraine in 2019. It felt rather weird, but I'll get used to it in future.

 

[Elwyn]

Something I wonder about is how many citizenships (a) someone might have , or (b) might have a right to have (these are not the same, some countries let you claim citizenship if X, Y and Z, but won't give it automatically), simply by being born somewhere, to some parents, or just by marrying someone, or just living somewhere on some date, without having to go through any naturalisation process.

Quite a lot is probably the answer.

Countries have vastly different laws. Some nationalities are easier to "acquire" by descent or birth than others. In the UK being born here does not in itself confer nationality, but in the US it does. Many countries only allow a claim to nationality by descent to go back one generation, but Ireland allows 2 generations. And so on.

But, as an example, you could have someone born in the US whose father was British, mother French, and had an Irish Grandparent. That would give you 4 nationalities by birth or descent straight away. And if there are other countries that allow a claim via a grandparent, then you might be able to add 3 more to that total. Then of course if you were later formally adopted by 2 parents of other different nationalities, you might be able to add some more to that.

 

[MattA7]

I have heard of some people having 5 or 6 citizenships but I imagine that is quite rare.

What I do find odd is when top ranking government officials have multiple citizenship. Some people don’t agree with people holding multiple citizenship so you think it would be used against them in office.

For example the president of Somali has dual US/Somali citizenship, Saad AlHariri (Lebanese prime minister) has triple Lebanese/Saudi/French citizenship.

 

[Journeyman]

Countries have vastly different laws. Some nationalities are easier to "acquire" by descent or birth than others. In the UK being born here does not in itself confer nationality, but in the US it does. Many countries only allow a claim to nationality by descent to go back one generation, but Ireland allows 2 generations. And so on.

Ireland's rules are quite generous partly because it hasn't been an independent nation for very long, and until fairly recently there were quite a few people around who were born when it was part of the UK. Scotland plans a similar policy if it becomes independent (which would allow me a third passport, assuming you could keep UK citizenship).

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

One could take four nationalities from descent and birth, then move to another country, live there a while, get yet another passport
That might be complicated and certainly expensive

Some countries demand proof of language ability, understanding history and constitution etc &c, not to mention savings or ability to earn

Plenty of people emigrated, then realised it was a mistake. George Lansbury for example, he just managed to get back from Australia and set about warning possible emigrants that the streets down there are not paved with gold

 

[WestCoast]

Ireland's rules are quite generous partly because it hasn't been an independent nation for very long, and until fairly recently there were quite a few people around who were born when it was part of the UK. Scotland plans a similar policy if it becomes independent (which would allow me a third passport, assuming you could keep UK citizenship).

Can you pass on your Irish citizenship to any decendants if you acquire it in this way?

Unforunately, in spite of having quite a mixed family I'm one generation out for both Irish (great grandparent) and German (grandparent) as per each of their rules. Scotland I would qualify for by living in Scotland and through my mother.

 

[Journeyman]

Can you pass on your Irish citizenship to any decendants if you acquire it in this way?

Unforunately, in spite of having quite a mixed family I'm one generation out for both Irish (great grandparent) and German (grandparent) as per each of their rules. Scotland I would qualify for by living in Scotland and through my mother.

Unfortunately only if you acquire it before your kids are born. I wish I'd known that in 2000, but hey, Brexit was a long way off back then, and I didn't have a crystal ball...

 

[Elwyn]

Though Ireland became independent from the UK in 1922, their citizens remained eligible for British passports until 1.1.1949 (when Ireland left the Commonwealth and also became The Republic of Ireland). And to this day anyone born in Ireland before that date can still have a British passport. Plus, there are many younger Irish people with parents born in the UK. So there are plenty of Irish people eligible for British passports.

Folk often used to take advantage of this if they had had difficulties with US immigration, for example. If refused admission to the US or if they had had some other problem with the US authorities on their Irish passport, they’d then obtain a British passport to have another go, in the hope that they wouldn’t show up in the US records system. The opportunity to do that has stopped now because the US fingerprints everyone, but it was common at one time.

 

[jon0844]

You can apply for a certificate of entitlement in your foreign passport as a alternative to a UK passport. It basically looks like a visa/residence permit and proves your UK citizenship to Uk immigration officials (or anyone else who needs to verify your UK citizenship such as banks, employers etc)

more info on the certificate of entitlement

Prove you have right of abode in the UK

Having right of abode means you're allowed to live or work in the UK without any immigration restrictions - apply for a certificate of entitlement to prove you have it.

www.gov.uk

Thanks. That's very useful to know.

Am I right in reading the attached PDF on that site that it's £372 for every time you get a new passport? My Swedish passport is a max duration of 5 years, so that's going to be very expensive.

That's frustrating as it would be a lot easier than carrying two passports. I guess that's the price (and what a price) for convenience.

 

[Elwyn]

In the 1990s the Home Office got the bean counters in and as a result decided that instead of the previous system of token fees (eg £5 for a visa, £10 for a passport), the charges for visas, passports, nationality applications and other similar official services should reflect the full costs involved. That’s production of the visa or passport (expensive items on special forgery proof paper) plus staff and admin costs. So by the time you have included building running costs, flights for overseas based staff and paying for the cleaners etc you can easily come up with a fairly hefty fee. They did.

 

[XAM2175]

As an example, lots of Australians have both British & Australian passports and show the Australian one entering Oz and the UK one entering the UK. Lots of passengers carry 2 passports. It does not normally cause any difficulty, provided they are in the same name. (I have known people whose names have changed, perhaps through marriage or for other reason, and have documents in different names. If the name in the document doesn’t match the name the ticket was bought in etc, then difficulties can occur).

In the Australian example, since by law an Australian citizen cannot be issued an Australian visa (as you do ) an Australian citizen must enter and exit Australia using their Australian passport.

you can easily come up with a fairly hefty fee

... and that's before you get present with the bill for the Immigration Health Surcharge!

 

[ABB125]

I have a Swedish grandparent, but I don't think that entitles me to Swedish citizenship (is anyone able to confirm/deny?). Not that it really matters to me at the moment; if, once I've finished university, I need to work abroad (which is unlikely unless required by an employer), I'll just have to get a visa.

 

[Elwyn]

I have a Swedish grandparent, but I don't think that entitles me to Swedish citizenship (is anyone able to confirm/deny?). Not that it really matters to me at the moment; if, once I've finished university, I need to work abroad (which is unlikely unless required by an employer), I'll just have to get a visa.

Check with the Swedish Embassy or some similar competent Swedish body. There should be information on the Swedish Embassy website in London.

https://www.swedenabroad.se/en/embassies/united-kingdom-london/

There’s a link there to the Swedish Migration agency and an e-mail contact. You could e-mail them and ask whether you have any entitlement.

The fee for a Swedish passport is currently £137 plus delivery fees.

 

[cav1975]

In the 1990s the Home Office got the bean counters in and as a result decided that instead of the previous system of token fees (eg £5 for a visa, £10 for a passport), the charges for visas, passports, nationality applications and other similar official services should reflect the full costs involved. That’s production of the visa or passport (expensive items on special forgery proof paper) plus staff and admin costs. So by the time you have included building running costs, flights for overseas based staff and paying for the cleaners etc you can easily come up with a fairly hefty fee. They did.

The result of that is that many countries now have special enhanced visa fees for British citizens. The usual UK government problem of understanding (often incorrectly) the cost but having no understanding of the benefit. Many foreign tourists don't bother with the UK if visiting Europe as it isn't worth the hassle or cost.

 

[Elwyn]

Many foreign tourists don't bother with the UK if visiting Europe as it isn't worth the hassle or cost.

Well who knows? Figures for 2019 were 40.9 million overseas visitors to the UK, up by 0.6 from the previous year. Visa fees don’t appear to have discouraged that many, I suspect.

Travel trends - Office for National Statistics

Annual estimates of travel and tourism visits to the UK (of less than 12 months' duration) and associated earnings and expenditure between the UK and the rest of the world.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[ABB125]

Check with the Swedish Embassy or some similar competent Swedish body. There should be information on the Swedish Embassy website in London.

https://www.swedenabroad.se/en/embassies/united-kingdom-london/

There’s a link there to the Swedish Migration agency and an e-mail contact. You could e-mail them and ask whether you have any entitlement.

The fee for a Swedish passport is currently £137 plus delivery fees.

Thanks. I'll take a look

 

[BJames]

It is true that most people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship (there are exceptions for people born here but whose parents were not legally settled). But that doesn’t have anything much to do with the surge in Irish citizenship applications.

The surge in passport applications has mostly been from British people whose parents or grandparents were born in Ireland. They want an Irish passport to be able to work in Europe without a work permit. If claiming through a grandparents birth you first have to get your father/mother’s birth in the UK registered in Ireland as an overseas birth. There’s a 1 year delay in those applications. People born in Northern Ireland don’t need to do that, which is why it’s fairly clear that the main surge is from people of Irish descent living in Britain or elsewhere, rather than from folk in NI.

My grandmother was born in Ireland. I had considered applying for an Irish passport but hadn't actually looked into it so this is very helpful... I didn't realise it would require this length of process but I'm not at all surprised given the backlog, and nonetheless it might still turn out to be worth it.

 

[Journeyman]

My grandmother was born in Ireland. I had considered applying for an Irish passport but hadn't actually looked into it so this is very helpful... I didn't realise it would require this length of process but I'm not at all surprised given the backlog, and nonetheless it might still turn out to be worth it.

Message me if you want any help with it.

 

[ILikeTrains75]

How many forum members have got dual citizenship because of brexit?
I am really glad that I got German citizenship 2 years ago. This will save me a lot of bother living in Germany.

I had British and Irish from before Brexit vote and last year applied for German citizenship by descent. Out of interest how long did your German citizenship application take, mine has been 18 months so far.