UK face coverings discussion

[bramling]

I’ve just had the pleasure of navigating my way home from work across central London. There are nowhere near as many revellers as on a typical Friday night pre Covid, but I saw several bad tempered exchanges, one of which led to an egress being pulled, and an ensuing delay at London Bridge (which I shortened by resetting it myself when the platform staff couldn’t manage it!)

It’s no doubt a combination of the events of the last few months, alcohol and today’s scorching heat, but there’s a unpleasant undercurrent of aggression at the moment. Exactly as you say, masks are yet another potential flashpoint, along with differing views on “social distancing“ etc.

Yes alcohol is probably a big factor too. One set of supermarket shelves which are still often conspicuously bare are those where the cheaper alcohol is sold.

Getting the masses back to work really needs to be the joint number one priority now along with schools. The collective sanity of the nation needs the structure that work provides, I really can see societal order starting to break apart.

Wind the clock back a year if anyone had suggested we’d be in such a total mess as we are now it would have seemed completely implausible. Elements of it would almost be funny if it wasn’t all so serious, especially some of the behaviour surrounding masks. We have one group who think anyone without a mask is a diseased murderer, and another group who take a different but equally bizarre line “I don’t really like it but it’s not fair I’m wearing a mask and he’s not”. Can we just put some of these people back on lockdown and let the rest of us live a bearable life?!

 

[PaulMc7]

Just seen this in response to someone who is exempt. Need I say anything else?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Just seen this in response to someone who is exempt. Need I say anything else?

Typical name and lots of numbers response (look at the Twitter handle beginning with an @). They're the vocal minority.

 

[PaulMc7]

Typical name and lots of numbers response (look at the Twitter handle beginning with an @). They're the vocal minority.

Absolutely. Been plenty of accounts like that about lately. Obviously a lot of people being on furlough still doesn't help since people have more time to spend online

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite. It's going to be an utterly miserable year, and I suspect most people will see their academic results drop, since we can't let off steam at all. Face coverings are going to make the misery worse - not even being able to smile at a friend or see other people properly won't be good for anyone's mental state.

This could become an issue if masks become required in public outdoor spaces, which while I'm pro-mask I oppose because there is a lot of evidence that it would have no effect. However, if you want to chat to your mates, have a few drinks or whatever without a mask on, why not go to the park or something?

I do think the idea of masks in the kitchen are silly, though - just treat a flat as a household - that's exactly what it is.

I've already noticed an increase in arguments and misunderstandings between people in the street, because masks hide facial expressions and make communication harder - and it seems like this will be the strategy for months or even years to come...

I haven't noticed that in that way at all. What I have noticed is people being less patient about those who fail to distance correctly (or based on differing expectations), but that has nothing to do with masks because hardly anybody wears them in the street.

 

[A Challenge]

According to statistics in this morning's newspaper, 96% of people are wearing face coverings outside their house. This seems high.

edited due to misread of article

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to statistics in this morning's newspaper, 96% of people are wearing face coverings outside their house. This seems high.

edited due to misread of article

Is this the stats from the ZOE app? If so, the question is more like "do you ever wear one when outside the home" and would include shops, where my observation is that well over 90% of people are wearing them.

 

[trebor79]

According to statistics in this morning's newspaper, 96% of people are wearing face coverings outside their house. This seems high.

edited due to misread of article

In shops? Sounds about right.
Just out and about in the street? More like 5% (although that's worryingly increased recently).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In shops? Sounds about right.
Just out and about in the street? More like 5% (although that's worryingly increased recently).

I have noticed a north-south divide on this, but as the "north" element was in Lancashire this may be because of concerns about the lockdown.

 

[talldave]

Another bonus of not wearing a mask is that it seems to trigger others into respecting social distancing. I'm happier with that than having mask wearers "in my face".

 

[Bantamzen]

I have noticed a north-south divide on this, but as the "north" element was in Lancashire this may be because of concerns about the lockdown.

You really shouldn't kid yourself that the harrowing of the North is anything other than pure politics. The North-South divide is purely drawn up in the corridors of Westminster & Whitehall.

 

[Jamiescott1]

my girlfriend commented yesterday how quiet our local high street has been in the past 2 weeks.
It would be interesting to see if retail sales have decreased since mask wearing became mandatory in shops

 

[Bantamzen]

my girlfriend commented yesterday how quiet our local high street has been in the past 2 weeks.
It would be interesting to see if retail sales have decreased since mask wearing became mandatory in shops

My wife and I went shopping in Leeds last Saturday, and it was for Leeds very quiet, I'd say there was only about 20-25% of the number of people that you'd normally expect to see. And the Aire Valley trains were practically empty!

 

[trebor79]

my girlfriend commented yesterday how quiet our local high street has been in the past 2 weeks.
It would be interesting to see if retail sales have decreased since mask wearing became mandatory in shops

My local high street is absolutely dead. Usually you can't park on the street and often a struggle to find a space even in the large car park not far away. There are more spaces empty than being used on the street and the car park has hardly any vehicles in it. Only Sainsbury's and Lidl doing any appreciable volume of trade,and their car parks also far emptier than usual.

 

[Scrotnig]

The High Street is over. We need to accept that sadly.

It already mostly was even before all this nonsense, but enforced closures and hysterical restrictions have totally finished it off.

Contrary to all the mask propaganda, i don't think people like going to shops in a mask, and the people claiming it's a great idea probably don't go in shops anyhow.

It's over. And all the revenue will go to Amazon. Great.

 

[AdamWW]

The High Street is over. We need to accept that sadly.

It already mostly was even before all this nonsense, but enforced closures and hysterical restrictions have totally finished it off.

Contrary to all the mask propaganda, i don't think people like going to shops in a mask, and the people claiming it's a great idea probably don't go in shops anyhow.

It's over. And all the revenue will go to Amazon. Great.

And our towns and cities can become like much of the US, where 'downtown' is not much different to the rest of the town except more run down.

Unfortunately, this means that public transport becomes next to useless for local travel as most journeys then require going into the centre and back out again.

Personally I think overall this would be a bit of a shame.

 

[island]

Apologies if this has been covered before, but as an extension of this - are coverings also mandatory within stations, as opposed to trains? I thought not but signs I’ve seen suggest yes (in which case lots of people are breaking this)...

It’s changing frequently but let me have a go. Assuming you don’t treat any of the regulations or requirements as unenforceable then:
• England – required in indoor parts of National Rail stations and everywhere in stations operated by TfL or its subsidiaries. Under 11 exempt
• Wales – not required in stations; face coverings worn on trains should have 3 layers
• Scotland – required in indoor parts of all stations. Under 5 exempt. Face shields not accepted.

My current favourite anomaly is that you are required to wear a face covering on the DLR platforms at Southeastern-managed Woolwich Arsenal (which are enclosed) but not the National Rail platforms (which are not), whilst down the line at Abbey Wood, you must wear a face covering on the National Rail platforms as the station is managed by TfL Rail, despite having no TfL services.

I may have missed one of the many, many updates but if I have I am sure someone will flag it shortly.

 

[adc82140]

I and of course the wearer who removes it or puts it under the chin to smoke a fag

I still can't believe you can go in to a supermarket and legally buy a pack of fags, yet cigarettes are known to have killed 115,000 people in the UK last year (Cancer Research UK source), and can kill others near you, and you have to wear a mask to go and do so.

 

[Scrotnig]

I'm amazed that Scotland thinks a five year old can be forced to wear a face mask. Whoever came up with that has never even met a child that age.

 

[43066]

This could become an issue if masks become required in public outdoor spaces, which while I'm pro-mask I oppose because there is a lot of evidence that it would have no effect. However, if you want to chat to your mates, have a few drinks or whatever without a mask on, why not go to the park or something?

Out of interest, if you’re anti-mask in outdoor settings due to lack of evidence of effectiveness, why are you pro-mask in indoor non-clinical settings where there’s also a lack of evidence of effectiveness?

 

[johntea]

Noticed at Leeds station yesterday they've put up notices advising from a date in the near future (can't remember the exact date but it is this month) they're no longer giving out free face masks and the only option in the station will be from the horrendously overpriced vending machines

I would guess this will be the same at other major stations

 

[Smidster]

My local high street is absolutely dead. Usually you can't park on the street and often a struggle to find a space even in the large car park not far away. There are more spaces empty than being used on the street and the car park has hardly any vehicles in it. Only Sainsbury's and Lidl doing any appreciable volume of trade,and their car parks also far emptier than usual.

This feels like a case where we need to remember there is a difference between correlation and causation

There are lots of reasons why people aren't going shopping right now. Sure I doubt masks are helping but there are a load of other factors that may well be more important - the main one of course being the fact that we are entering a deep recession so there are millions of people who just don't have the money or are fearful for their jobs so going for a jolly to the shops isn't top of mind.

 

[talldave]

I'm sure it was just a coincidence that shops went mysteriously quiet from 24th July.

 

[trainophile]

Noticed at Leeds station yesterday they've put up notices advising from a date in the near future (can't remember the exact date but it is this month) they're no longer giving out free face masks and the only option in the station will be from the horrendously overpriced vending machines

I would guess this will be the same at other major stations

I noticed at Birmingham New Street the other day that vending machines that used to stock chocolate and snacks are now given over to masses of packs of masks. I didn't find out the prices as you had to make your selection before it would tell you.

 

[bramling]

This feels like a case where we need to remember there is a difference between correlation and causation

There are lots of reasons why people aren't going shopping right now. Sure I doubt masks are helping but there are a load of other factors that may well be more important - the main one of course being the fact that we are entering a deep recession so there are millions of people who just don't have the money or are fearful for their jobs so going for a jolly to the shops isn't top of mind.

There certainly *appears* to have been a decline in shop footfall since masks came in.

The two small Sainsbury’s near my work are now the emptiest I’ve ever seen them, which contrasts even to lockdown when both had long queues outside at most times of day. Likewise my town centre is now rather quiet.

Now there could be some trends which are masking things a little, perhaps people are just going into shops to buy what they simply need so aren’t lingering, or perhaps people are compressing their time into fewer but longer sessions. Who knows, but equally perhaps people simply are using shops only as a last resort now. I know one person who’s certainly doing the latter - me. Over the last two weeks there’s been a number of purchases that I’ve made online instead, or in some cases simply haven’t made at all. I suppose one positive is that I’m snacking less at work which is probably good for my waistline!

However all in all it’s not a good outlook. In a similar vein I am driving to work at lot more at the moment as I now simply can’t be bothered with the hassle of trains, and if that trend continues much longer then the next step will be to cash in the season ticket.

The thing is one rarely tends to be alone with things, so if my trends above are replicated to any extent then it is deeply damaging. There’s a pack of cards waiting to tumble.

 

[talldave]

I suspect that post 24th July there are more big shopping trips and less top-up/snacking/"wouldn't it be nice" trips.

 

[Huntergreed]

I suspect that post 24th July there are more big shopping trips and less top-up/snacking/"wouldn't it be nice" trips.

Agreed, however I imagine the impact of mask mandation on galleries, libraries, museums and the culture sector is going to be profoundly more visible (people have to shop, people choose to visit these places, and whilst masks are mandated I can’t envisiage that many people will choose to do so.

 

[bramling]

Agreed, however I imagine the impact of mask mandation on galleries, libraries, museums and the culture sector is going to be profoundly more visible (people have to shop, people choose to visit these places, and whilst masks are mandated I can’t envisiage that many people will choose to do so.

Absolutely. Something like a castle or museum is very discretionary - I can just as easily choose to do a remote outdoor walk instead or find something else of interest to visit. Places which don’t have extensive grounds as part of the paid attraction will be particularly affected.

By this point in the year we’d normally have been to something like 50 to 100 attractions. Grand total this year I think currently stands at one, and that was on an annual pass left over from last year. If this is typical then it’s catastrophic for this industry, and personally I’d have preferred culture and history to be more worthy of support than cafes and restaurants, which to be honest this country is over supplied with.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

So looks like secondary schools could be next on the agenda for mandatory masks, if the media is anything to go by:

Coronavirus: Minister advised of 'benefit' of face coverings on older children

The chief scientific advisor says they could be worn in some settings in schools.

www.bbc.co.uk

Face coverings for older school children would be "of some benefit", Northern Ireland's chief scientific adviser has said.

Professor Ian Young said they could be worn in some settings in schools.

Make face masks mandatory in secondary schools, teachers' union urges

Reopening rules now ‘out of step’ with wider public health guidance, NASUWT argues

www.independent.co.uk

The NASUWT teachers’ union highlighted recent changes in government guidelines on face masks to make the case that similar changes should apply in secondary schools.

“The government’s recent announcements requiring the wearing of face masks on public transport and in shops has understandably highlighted the need for similar protections to be in place in schools and colleges,” said Patrick Roach, general secretary of NASUWT.

“Guidance for schools is now out of step with wider public health guidance and guidance to other employers where it is recognised that where physical distancing cannot be assured, face masks should be worn.”

There's even a petition for it: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/330227

I think it's inevitable that it will be mandatory in Universities in good time, but hopefully the Government actually see sense and don't mandate them in secondary schools. If it's difficult enough for the general public to wear them correctly, then I wouldn't expect anything better from teenagers wearing them for hours on end in a stifling hot classroom. It wouldn't be before long until they're flung about the corridors, trust me.

 

[jtuk]

By this point in the year we’d normally have been to something like 50 to 100 attractions. Grand total this year I think currently stands at one, and that was on an annual pass left over from last year. If this is typical then it’s catastrophic for this industry, and personally I’d have preferred culture and history to be more worthy of support than cafes and restaurants, which to be honest this country is over supplied with.

Absolutely. My thing is football as opposed to museums or attractions like that - I'd typically go to upwards of 60-70 games a season, depending on how the fixture lists space out, obviously I've been to none since early March. I'd return to any event tomorrow - on my terms. I'll be renewing my Premier League season ticket, but if and when it reopens to fans and they only permit, say, a third in, then if they have any sort of mask requirement, I'll easily be taking a pro rata refund and letting someone else go, or letting a friend use my ticket that otherwise wouldn't have to travel. I certainly wouldn't consider doing something like a random visit to a new ground given how far away most of them are for me at this stage - last September I thought nothing of seeing a friend in Bristol to catch a game and put an easy £100+ into the railways and his local economy, but even if they let in fans tomorrow that's simply out of the question, 2.5-3 on a XC Voyager is unpleasant enough at the best of times