UK face coverings discussion

[Bletchleyite]

I think this perfectly sums up what's wrong with the current state of affairs.

I think many people are tending to choose the 'covid' safe option on polls, mainly because 3-4 months of media doom mongering, government scare tactics and public shaming have scared a lot of people, and now people feel that stringent measures must be taken on a national scale, whereas on a personal level they (hopefully) want a return to normal in the near future, which sadly it's looking increasingly likely that we're not going to get.

If we want elimination we are going to need to tighten substantially for 2-3 months then close our borders. We seem to be following "hammer and dance" to keep R=1 until a vaccine.

 

[Huntergreed]

If we want elimination we are going to need to tighten substantially for 2-3 months then close our borders. We seem to be following "hammer and dance" to keep R=1 until a vaccine.

Indeed we seem to be going for this tactic (what's the benefit of using this strategy, out of curiosity?)

Does that mean that you expect mask mandation to be expanded to outside of your home eventually?

 

[DB]

If we want elimination we are going to need to tighten substantially for 2-3 months then close our borders. We seem to be following "hammer and dance" to keep R=1 until a vaccine.

I've not seen any reports of anyone who actually understands this (epidemiologists, etc) express a belief that it's actually possible to 'eliminate' this in any reasonable timescale.

If they carry on with this dance of trying to suppress it, then the country will be bankrupt within a couple of years.

THe idea of closing border for a substantial period of time is frankly ludicrous.

 

[bramling]

I think this perfectly sums up what's wrong with the current state of affairs.

I think many people are tending to choose the 'covid' safe option on polls, mainly because 3-4 months of media doom mongering, government scare tactics and public shaming have scared a lot of people, and now people feel that stringent measures must be taken on a national scale, whereas on a personal level they (hopefully) want a return to normal in the near future, which sadly it's looking increasingly likely that we're not going to get.

Yes and perhaps add to that that various sectors of the population have different perceptions of reality. I’m at work as I write this and everyone here is vigilant but relaxed about all this, there’s certainly distancing going on, but equally people aren’t afraid to talk to each other or pass on stairs.

Meanwhile one reads on Twitter something like Helen from Hitchin steaming off that she went on a train for the first time since March and was shocked and appalled that there was someone in the train not wearing a mask. What do these people think key workers and others have been doing for the last 4 months?

This level of hysteria, and in some cases simply pure nastiness, is not good for people. We’re brewing up some longer term problems here, and it needs urgent attention from the government. Likewise one wonders how many new alcohol addictions there are going to be, judging by the number of people seen buying cheap multipacks in supermarkets. Masks are one part of an increasingly concerning state of affairs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed we seem to be going for this tactic (what's the benefit of using this strategy, out of curiosity?)

It relies on a vaccine or treatment, but the benefit of it is that it allows maximum opening of stuff in the meantime, whereas a policy of elimination requires a much tighter lockdown as if you loosen it it'll come back.

Does that mean that you expect mask mandation to be expanded to outside of your home eventually?

I'm a bit unsure. There's very little case for it outdoors, but it doesn't mean they won't try if public opinion goes that way.

I've not seen any reports of anyone who actually understands this (epidemiologists, etc) express a belief that it's actually possible to 'eliminate' this in any reasonable timescale.

Well, both NZ and the Isle of Man seem to have done so, and Wales and Scotland are very, very close.

THe idea of closing border for a substantial period of time is frankly ludicrous.

It's not. We should be more self sufficient as a country anyway.

 

[Enthusiast]

I've just come off the phone to my cousin (today is her birthday). She is the clinical nursing manager ("Matron" in old money) in a large West Country hospital. She has spent her entire working life (>30 years) in nursing, much of it in A&E, operating theatres and Intensive Care. She knows a thing or two about PPE. She will not, under any circumstances, wear a face mask outside of her hospital. She has strongly advised her husband and two adult children against doing so. She has forbidden her youngest child (14) from doing so. Her reasoning is simple. She tells me that the risk of infection to the wearer from a poorly fitted face mask that is fiddled about with and constantly adjusted, removed and replaced exceeds, by a comfortable margin, the minimal mitigation of infection to others the same mask provides. She reminded me of one of the government's early advices - do not touch your face when you're out. Nobody, she believes, can avoid doing that when wearing a mask. Even she has trouble. In a hospital setting everything is controlled: surfaces, hand coverings, disinfection. In the supermarket or on a bus nothing is. She also explained that in most circumstances in hospital masks must be changed every 30 minutes. This is because it becomes a "sponge" absorbing everything that comes in and goes out, home to a nice warm, damp, microorganism ridden soup which will prosper in front of your nose and mouth.

Her advice is good enough for me and I will rely on it far more readily than some woolly jargon produced by a government scribe that tells me of the "emerging evidence" about the effectiveness of face masks. From tomorrow face masks and I part company permanently.

 

[Enthusiast]

It's not. We should be more self sufficient as a country anyway.

But we're not. And we won't be simply because we've closed our borders.

 

[DB]

Well, both NZ and the Isle of Man seem to have done so, and Wales and Scotland are very, very close.

It's not. We should be more self sufficient as a country anyway.

They won't be able to keep it up though. Three months, six months - yes, probably. A year, two years, three years - very unlikely.

If you really think that we can be 'more self sufficient' to this degree then I'm afraid you don't have much idea of the reality. This country is very heavily reliant on the outside world, and it's not possible to completely reorientate an economy in a few months.

 

[adc82140]

I do wonder if this spike we're seeing in Europe has something to do with this. Is it any coincidence that the parts of Spain that are now mandating masks anywhere outside have the biggest increase in cases. I never thought I'd say this, but bring back the supermarket queue and the pavement dance. That seemed to work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder if this spike we're seeing in Europe has something to do with this. Is it any coincidence that the parts of Spain that are now mandating masks anywhere outside have the biggest increase in cases. I never thought I'd say this, but bring back the supermarket queue and the pavement dance. That seemed to work.

Masks are supposed to be in addition to social distancing, not instead of it, except where it's impossible e.g. public transport. I'm led to believe PHE are very unimpressed with Tesco for basically having dropped it.

 

[Richard Scott]

If we want elimination we are going to need to tighten substantially for 2-3 months then close our borders. We seem to be following "hammer and dance" to keep R=1 until a vaccine.

You'll never eliminate it as it's worldwide. There's no way of keeping it out, pure fantasy. We need to learn to live with it and the whole world needs to get this through its head. Please don't quote New Zealand etc as I'll be amazed if they can eliminate forever.

 

[adc82140]

Masks are supposed to be in addition to social distancing, not instead of it, except where it's impossible e.g. public transport. I'm led to believe PHE are very unimpressed with Tesco for basically having dropped it.

From watching people's behaviour, most are seeing it as a substitute for social distancing. That's why they are a bad idea. 2 metres was an easy one for people to understand.

 

[vlad]

Chill out. If everyone's wearing a mask then no-one needs to do social distancing any more.

From what I've seen that's what people are thinking now. The bloke behind me in the queue in Lidl today was standing so close you'd find it uncomfortable even without COVID-19 - and he wasn't the only person I noticed.

Incidentally, if you're wearing a mask, how do you (a) breathe; (b) stop your glasses steaming up?

 

[bramling]

Masks are supposed to be in addition to social distancing, not instead of it, except where it's impossible e.g. public transport. I'm led to believe PHE are very unimpressed with Tesco for basically having dropped it.

Out of curiosity, are you able to comment a bit more on the PHE and Tesco thing?

 

[bramling]

You'll never eliminate it as it's worldwide. There's no way of keeping it out, pure fantasy. We need to learn to live with it and the whole world needs to get this through its head. Please don't quote New Zealand etc as I'll be amazed if they can eliminate forever.

Any elimination strategy is a gamble on a functional vaccine emerging within a reasonable timescale. We could take that gamble, but would need to be under no illusion that’s what such a strategy would be.

 

[farleigh]

I was watching a repeat of The Sweeney earlier. A question occurred to me. Is it legal to wear a stocking over the head like a 70's bank blagger in place of a mask?

 

[bramling]

I've just come off the phone to my cousin (today is her birthday). She is the clinical nursing manager ("Matron" in old money) in a large West Country hospital. She has spent her entire working life (>30 years) in nursing, much of it in A&E, operating theatres and Intensive Care. She knows a thing or two about PPE. She will not, under any circumstances, wear a face mask outside of her hospital. She has strongly advised her husband and two adult children against doing so. She has forbidden her youngest child (14) from doing so. Her reasoning is simple. She tells me that the risk of infection to the wearer from a poorly fitted face mask that is fiddled about with and constantly adjusted, removed and replaced exceeds, by a comfortable margin, the minimal mitigation of infection to others the same mask provides. She reminded me of one of the government's early advices - do not touch your face when you're out. Nobody, she believes, can avoid doing that when wearing a mask. Even she has trouble. In a hospital setting everything is controlled: surfaces, hand coverings, disinfection. In the supermarket or on a bus nothing is. She also explained that in most circumstances in hospital masks must be changed every 30 minutes. This is because it becomes a "sponge" absorbing everything that comes in and goes out, home to a nice warm, damp, microorganism ridden soup which will prosper in front of your nose and mouth.

Her advice is good enough for me and I will rely on it far more readily than some woolly jargon produced by a government scribe that tells me of the "emerging evidence" about the effectiveness of face masks. From tomorrow face masks and I part company permanently.

This is kind of the line I’ve been taking. It’s just not possible to reconcile mask wearing in public places with the strictly controlled environment and behaviours required to make them work.

I am not complying, the fear of picking up germs in this way causes me severe distress.

 

[Smidster]

I do wonder if this spike we're seeing in Europe has something to do with this. Is it any coincidence that the parts of Spain that are now mandating masks anywhere outside have the biggest increase in cases. I never thought I'd say this, but bring back the supermarket queue and the pavement dance. That seemed to work.

If there is an increase in infections then it is because places are being opened up meaning more people have more interactions with others and so the thing can start to spread again in a way that wasn't possible when lockdown was stricter. That was always going to happen to some extent when you haven't eliminated the disease. At that point you become much more reliant on your testing regime and ability to track and isolate when cases appear.

It is Impossible to say what the situation would have been with different reopening protocols (e.g. no masks)

 

[DB]

Any elimination strategy is a gamble on a functional vaccine emerging within a reasonable timescale. We could take that gamble, but would need to be under no illusion that’s what such a strategy would be.

And even with a vaccine, it's still likely to take a lot longer than many seem to realise, and require a sustained worldwide effort.

It is worth repeating again that point that only one formerly widespread human virus has ever been eliminated - Smallpox, and that took not far short of 200 years from the first vaccine.

 

[Non Multi]

I was watching a repeat of The Sweeney earlier. A question occurred to me. Is it legal to wear a stocking over the head like a 70's bank blagger in place of a mask?

A terrorist balaclava or a thinner racing driver one might be quite good as a head warmer when it starts getting cold.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of curiosity, are you able to comment a bit more on the PHE and Tesco thing?

Unfortunately not really, I know someone who is working on COVID response there personally (sort of) and he generally doesn't tell me anything that's not public, but if I said too much I would risk identifying him and I don't think that would be right. But that I understand is the undertone of the view on it.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I'm led to believe PHE are very unimpressed with Tesco for basically having dropped it.

If PHE are "very unimpressed" with it then I'm surprised the media haven't been all over it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If PHE are "very unimpressed" with it then I'm surprised the media haven't been all over it!

I think they're busy going on about masks and (now) Spanish holidaymakers. They've got bored of supermarkets, that was March.

 

[bramling]

Unfortunately not really, I know someone who is working on COVID response there personally (sort of) and he generally doesn't tell me anything that's not public, but if I said too much I would risk identifying him and I don't think that would be right. But that I understand is the undertone of the view on it.

Fair enough, fully understood.

 

[Mag_seven]

If PHE are "very unimpressed" with it then I'm surprised the media haven't been all over it!

I must admit I'm surprised that PHE is in a position to finger wag at anyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit I'm surprised that PHE is in a position to finger wag at anyone.

In what way? My understanding is that it's the politicians that have been mucking with it...

 

[VauxhallandI]

We took a return journey in a taxi tonight and I wore a mask for the first time.

Observations:
I couldn’t see a think due to my glasses steaming up within 3 seconds. Making paying hard as I can’t see without them.
I’d forgotten my inhaler and I realised during the evening which brings on my usual requirement to use it. When we took the return journey the mask did not help my breathing making the situation worse and I was grateful I was just sitting down and that my inhaler was 20 metres from the drop off point.

The mask was also pink as it was a spare one from my other half!

 

[DB]

We took a return journey in a taxi tonight and I wore a mask for the first time.

Observations:
I couldn’t see a think due to my glasses steaming up within 3 seconds. Making paying hard as I can’t see without them.
I’d forgotten my inhaler and I realised during the evening which brings on my usual requirement to use it. When we took the return journey the mask did not help my breathing making the situation worse and I was grateful I was just sitting down and that my inhaler was 20 metres from the drop off point.

The mask was also pink as it was a spare one from my other half!

Sounds like you probably have a valid reason not to wear one, if you use an inhaler.

 

[45107]

Well, please remember that in order for you to feel more confident, other people have been put in a position where they feel excluded from shops.

And equally there is a proportion of the population who are feeling excluded because people are not wearing masks.
I accept that these are predominately the elderly but should we exclude them from society.
Why not wear a mask to accommodate them?

To be honest, reading this forum I am surprised at the percentage of users who have a medical reason for not using a mask in comparison to ’normal’ society or European norms.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Sounds like you probably have a valid reason not to wear one, if you use an inhaler.

I’m not sure to be honest, maybe if I had my inhaler with me it would have been ok.

Having read about the abuse handed out to a disabled person on the train for not wearing one I d9nt know if I want to end up in a situation; I wouldn’t go quietly