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UK face coverings discussion

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Bletchleyite

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I’m not sure to be honest, maybe if I had my inhaler with me it would have been ok.

Having read about the abuse handed out to a disabled person on the train for not wearing one I d9nt know if I want to end up in a situation; I wouldn’t go quietly

I'd say if the mask causes you to need to use your inhaler and you wouldn't have needed it if you weren't wearing the mask, then you are probably best not wearing one. An inhaler is a reasonably easy thing to flash at someone who says something.
 
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VauxhallandI

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I think it exasperated a situation that was already occurring. I will give it another go under better circumstances.
 

DB

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And equally there is a proportion of the population who are feeling excluded because people are not wearing masks.
I accept that these are predominately the elderly but should we exclude them from society.
Why not wear a mask to accommodate them?

There are reasons why people are not actually able to wear masks, and it's clear that anyone not wearing one is at risk of vigilante abuse at the moment.

There is no reason why elderly people cannot go into a shop containing people not wearing masks (let's remember, the staff still have no requirement to). The issue here is that masks are being mandated to make people feel 'safe' when there is little evidence for any effectiveness, and that is simply wrong - it's nothing more than a placebo, and there is a reasonable possibility that it may actually make things worse due to people fiddling with masks, and feeling invincible because the mask keeps them 'safe'. It is also a visible reminder that things are not 'normal'.

This is a situation entirely of the government's own making due to its constand doom-mongering, and the longer they carry on with measures like this the longer this situation (which is not 'normal') will carry on for as it's just reinforcing the message of paranoia.

And if they want to cater for the sort of people you describe, it would be entirely possible for them to encourage a time slot (say 9-11 every day) when masks are required, so anyone paranoid can do their shopping then.

To be honest, reading this forum I am surprised at the percentage of users who have a medical reason for not using a mask in comparison to ’normal’ society or European norms.

It's reckoned to be 10-20% in figures I've seen.

Not sure how you can compare it to Europe - visible mask use only demonstrates those who are acutally shopping, and many who can't wear masks will be avoiding shops.
 
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yorkie

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Lip-reading sisters abused for lifting mask on train

A 16-year-old who lifted her face mask so her sister could read her lips was verbally abused by a train passenger.

Saule Pakenaite was on the Liverpool to Southport service with sibling Karolina, 24, who had a guide dog with her.

When Saule briefly removed her covering to speak, a woman began to shout verbal abuse, despite the sisters explaining Karolina was registered as deafblind.
Disgusting behaviour :(

Sadly, this was entirely predictable. If I ever see anything like this happen, I'll be up for an argument, that's for sure.

This is NOT an isolated incident:
Sense chief executive Richard Kramer said the sisters' experience "wasn't a one-off - a number of people have been challenged for not wearing a mask".

He said the organisation had received "lots" of similar accounts, which could reinforce any anxiety felt about leaving the home, or lead to further isolation.

There is a video of the incident here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ask-coronavirus-train-southport-a9637531.html it makes me angry to hear things like that; if I ever witnessed something like that, I'd give that nasty woman a right telling off, that's for sure.
 
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BJames

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Disgusting behaviour :(

Sadly, this was entirely predictable. If I ever see anything like this happen, I'll be up for an argument, that's for sure.

This is NOT an isolated incident:


There is a video of the incident here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ask-coronavirus-train-southport-a9637531.html it makes me angry to hear things like that; if I ever witnessed something like that, I'd give that nasty woman a right telling off, that's for sure.
I would be having an argument there too. That is completely unacceptable but like you I am unsurprised. I think Cressida Dick needs to have a read of this and retract her statement that people should be "shamed" into compliance.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Disgusting behaviour :(

Sadly, this was entirely predictable. If I ever see anything like this happen, I'll be up for an argument, that's for sure.

This is NOT an isolated incident:


There is a video of the incident here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ask-coronavirus-train-southport-a9637531.html it makes me angry to hear things like that; if I ever witnessed something like that, I'd give that nasty woman a right telling off, that's for sure.
It's not the virus, so no-one gives a toss that we are discriminating against those with disabilities and exemptions on a scale never seen before.

It's just the way this godforsaken country is nowadays...
 

bramling

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It's not the virus, so no-one gives a toss that we are discriminating against those with disabilities and exemptions on a scale never seen before.

It's just the way this godforsaken country is nowadays...

It’s bad enough the great unwashed doing it which could be put down to ignorance, stupidity or hysteria, but it’s simply abominable that this situation has been created by the government, and as if that’s not bad enough then spurred on by people like Dick.

Anyway, time for a bit of gentle action today. Been gently encouraging drivers at my place to make announcements specifically highlighting exemptions and that people should not be surprised nor concerned to see some people devoid of masks. This is the official message anyway, but no harm raising a bit of awareness here.
 

Cowley

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Anyway, time for a bit of gentle action today. Been gently encouraging drivers at my place to make announcements specifically highlighting exemptions and that people should not be surprised nor concerned to see some people devoid of masks. This is the official message anyway, but no harm raising a bit of awareness here.
That’s a really good thing to do @bramling, well done for that.
 

Bantamzen

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If we want elimination we are going to need to tighten substantially for 2-3 months then close our borders. We seem to be following "hammer and dance" to keep R=1 until a vaccine.

You seem grimly determined to shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted & lived out a happy life in the wild. Is there a particular reason, I know you've cited New Zealand as a shining example, but those islands now face the reality of being completely cut off from the rest of the world if they wish to keep their strategy. And clearly that is not sustainable even in the short to medium term. So why are you so keen to lock the UK down?

I think they're busy going on about masks and (now) Spanish holidaymakers. They've got bored of supermarkets, that was March.

And Spain is a country that has used masks far more extensively than the UK, oh.....
 

158747

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It's very relevant, because, unless exempt, if you forgot to have it with you, it's the same as having forgotten your wallet - you don't go in the shop, or you leave as soon as you realise your error.



It seems very clear that he didn't have an exemption from the post, and therefore as soon as someone pointed it out he should have dropped his goods off, turned and left the shop immediately, having realised he was committing an offence inadvertently.

I don't support the actions of someone getting abusive over masks. However, if you're not exempt, it wouldn't need to go any further than "where's your mask?", as I'm sure the confrontation started off, before turning tail with "sorry mate I forgot, thanks for pointing it out" and leaving immediately, dropping your basket before the door.

If you are accidentally committing a criminal offence - any criminal offence - and someone points it out, even if they do so impolitely, you stop committing it immediately and retreat with thanks and an apology. You don't escalate a confrontation.
I don’t see what all the fuss is about, he made a mistake and forgot his mask, quite simply really. The ones in the wrong are the ones who confronted him. As it turned out he wasn’t exempt from wearing a mask but they didn’t know that so he probably would have had the same treatment from them regardless. If I see someone in a shop or on public transport without a mask I don’t react as I have no way of knowing if they are exempt or not and even if I did know it’s not my place to intervene, that is the job of the police.
 

talldave

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I've just come off the phone to my cousin (today is her birthday). She is the clinical nursing manager ("Matron" in old money) in a large West Country hospital. She has spent her entire working life (>30 years) in nursing, much of it in A&E, operating theatres and Intensive Care. She knows a thing or two about PPE. She will not, under any circumstances, wear a face mask outside of her hospital. She has strongly advised her husband and two adult children against doing so. She has forbidden her youngest child (14) from doing so. Her reasoning is simple. She tells me that the risk of infection to the wearer from a poorly fitted face mask that is fiddled about with and constantly adjusted, removed and replaced exceeds, by a comfortable margin, the minimal mitigation of infection to others the same mask provides. She reminded me of one of the government's early advices - do not touch your face when you're out. Nobody, she believes, can avoid doing that when wearing a mask. Even she has trouble. In a hospital setting everything is controlled: surfaces, hand coverings, disinfection. In the supermarket or on a bus nothing is. She also explained that in most circumstances in hospital masks must be changed every 30 minutes. This is because it becomes a "sponge" absorbing everything that comes in and goes out, home to a nice warm, damp, microorganism ridden soup which will prosper in front of your nose and mouth.

Her advice is good enough for me and I will rely on it far more readily than some woolly jargon produced by a government scribe that tells me of the "emerging evidence" about the effectiveness of face masks. From tomorrow face masks and I part company permanently.
I fear that the incidence of respiratory infections is going to rise dramatically as a result of people breathing through soggy germ infested rags for hours on end.

Of course the Coronaphobes will put all this illness down to Covid, thus fuelling the fear & hysteria - without questioning why that didn't happen prior to 24th July.

The first time medical professionals touch their mask is to remove it and bin it, probably replacing it with a sterile new one. They don't bung it in their pocket whilst they go to lunch and pop it back on for their afternoon's work.

In addition, in the medical environment, if masking up is necessary everydoes it. There's no "oh he's an anaesthetist so doesn't need one" approach.

What we've got on trains and in shops is a ludicrous and pointless visual gesture that risks giving people health problems they didn't previously have.
 

Bantamzen

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I've just come off the phone to my cousin (today is her birthday). She is the clinical nursing manager ("Matron" in old money) in a large West Country hospital. She has spent her entire working life (>30 years) in nursing, much of it in A&E, operating theatres and Intensive Care. She knows a thing or two about PPE. She will not, under any circumstances, wear a face mask outside of her hospital. She has strongly advised her husband and two adult children against doing so. She has forbidden her youngest child (14) from doing so. Her reasoning is simple. She tells me that the risk of infection to the wearer from a poorly fitted face mask that is fiddled about with and constantly adjusted, removed and replaced exceeds, by a comfortable margin, the minimal mitigation of infection to others the same mask provides. She reminded me of one of the government's early advices - do not touch your face when you're out. Nobody, she believes, can avoid doing that when wearing a mask. Even she has trouble. In a hospital setting everything is controlled: surfaces, hand coverings, disinfection. In the supermarket or on a bus nothing is. She also explained that in most circumstances in hospital masks must be changed every 30 minutes. This is because it becomes a "sponge" absorbing everything that comes in and goes out, home to a nice warm, damp, microorganism ridden soup which will prosper in front of your nose and mouth.

Her advice is good enough for me and I will rely on it far more readily than some woolly jargon produced by a government scribe that tells me of the "emerging evidence" about the effectiveness of face masks. From tomorrow face masks and I part company permanently.

I really wish we'd kept to the original thinking, that wearing a mask can, and will present more problems than they will solve. It doesn't seem to bother the maskivists that in clinical settings there are hard & fast rules on using masks, not touching them, replacing them on a regular basis, as well as the hygiene regimes are needed to render them effective. So we now have the situation whereby anyone infected with the virus could potentially be storing up large quantities of it in their coverings, and then transferring them to surfaces where they will be able to spread a lot more effectively than if they had been exhaled and diluted into the air. If you just sit back and think about it for just a moment, it seems like utter madness. But these are the times we live in now. Rational thinking & evidence based decision making are out of the window. Now its just panic & demand measures to protect us, erm sorry we mean protect others...
 

talldave

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Rational thinking & evidence based decision making are out of the window. Now its just panic & demand measures to protect us, erm sorry we mean protect others...
Agree. I'd love to know what thought process went through the mind of people who didn't feel the need to wear a mask before 23:59 on Thursday and yet one minute later decided they did?

It can't be to prevent infection, because if they thought that they'd have been wearing one for weeks.

So it must be because someone told them to, but they presumably don't agree with wearing one or they'd have been doing so previously?

So then I have to ask, what's their breaking point? They've complied to wear masks in shops. What about from the moment they step outside their home? Is that OK too? Or how about a requirement to wear gloves in shops? Is that OK? How about a stick-on forehead temperature patch? Surely that can't harm - for the greater good - can it? How about carrying a card to show you've had a vaccine? Is that OK?

When does each individual get to the "that's enough" point?
 

Bantamzen

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Agree. I'd love to know what thought process went through the mind of people who didn't feel the need to wear a mask before 23:59 on Thursday and yet one minute later decided they did?

It can't be to prevent infection, because if they thought that they'd have been wearing one for weeks.

So it must be because someone told them to, but they presumably don't agree with wearing one or they'd have been doing so previously?

So then I have to ask, what's their breaking point? They've complied to wear masks in shops. What about from the moment they step outside their home? Is that OK too? Or how about a requirement to wear gloves in shops? Is that OK? How about a stick-on forehead temperature patch? Surely that can't harm - for the greater good - can it? How about carrying a card to show you've had a vaccine? Is that OK?

When does each individual get to the "that's enough" point?

Indeed, personally I am way past the tolerance level. I am sick & tired of being treated like some disease infection vector, and I am now making a point of telling anyone that questions my views that I do honestly believe the entire world has over-dramatized it & that we all need a collective banging of heads together to get a grip again. As the epidemiologists in the video posted earlier in this thread say, we should follow the data. And the data tells us explicitly which demographic groups are most at risk, and they are those 75 and older, those in care homes, and those in medical care. They even go on to say how the vast amount of the risk to these people could be easily mitigated. The problem is that this will require politicians to admit that they failed the elderly, failed those in care & medical situations, and failed the rest of us. So instead we all get punished & treat like dirt, with members of the public turning on others on command from their masters.

Right now I can feel my blood pressure rising, I am so very, very angry with the world.
 

island

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Chill out. If everyone's wearing a mask then no-one needs to do social distancing any more.
I am hopeful that this was sarcasm.

Face coverings are a mitigation when 2m social distancing is impossible. Not “a little bit inconvenient” or “we need to let more people in”. Impossible means impossible.
 

talldave

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You omitted the fat. I think it's fair to say that's a group we couldn't have predicted because we weren't aware of the blood clotting problems Covid causes.

But we know now, so can focus support and education there too.

The biggest problem is what to do about thick hystericals who are screaming at drivers in cars alongside them at traffic lights. Until they stop whining, we're at the mercy of the hi-vis power trip brigade.

How BTP officers without masks ranting at passengers to wear masks can do so with a clear conscience is beyond me.
 

KevinTurvey

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If they were to say masks were recommended but not compulsory in shops, I think most people would be able to deal with this, rather than the double standards approach we have now. I think its bad law to require mandatory face mask wearing in shops, whilst at the same time you can sit in a pub or restaurant without one, which is surely a far far higher risk situation.

I suspect the number of other chest and throat infections will skyrocket due to people breathing through dirty, moist masks they may have dropped or kept in their coat or trouser pocket between use, or put on after putting on their shoes (which may for example be highly contaminated) or playing with the dog.

Social distancing seems to have fizzled out too as "its OK as I have a mask on".

As the authorities have over the last few months made themselves look fools with their U turns, double standards, misrepresentation of statistics, I am surprised at the high number of people actually wearing masks.
 

Yew

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You omitted the fat. I think it's fair to say that's a group we couldn't have predicted because we weren't aware of the blood clotting problems Covid causes.

It's not uncommon for overweight people to be prescribed CPAP machines to stop their throats being weighed shut through the weight of their necks
 

Bletchleyite

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You seem grimly determined to shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted & lived out a happy life in the wild. Is there a particular reason, I know you've cited New Zealand as a shining example, but those islands now face the reality of being completely cut off from the rest of the world if they wish to keep their strategy. And clearly that is not sustainable even in the short to medium term. So why are you so keen to lock the UK down?

Because social distancing is grim, harming mental health and damaging the economy. We have an opportunity to be able to stop it even before a vaccine, so why don't we?
 

Yew

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The University of Oxford Centre for Evidence Based Medicine has shown a pretty damming report.


The increasing polarised and politicised views 1 on whether to wear masks in public during the current COVID-19 crisis hides a bitter truth on the state of contemporary research and the value we pose on clinical evidence to guide our decisions.

In 2010, at the end of the last influenza pandemic, there were six published randomised controlled trials with 4,147 participants focusing on the benefits of different types of masks. 2 Two were done in healthcare workers and four in family or student clusters. The face mask trials for influenza-like illness (ILI) reported poor compliance, rarely reported harms and revealed the pressing need for future trials.

Despite the clear requirement to carry out further large, pragmatic trials a decade later, only six had been published: five in healthcare workers and one in pilgrims. 3 This recent crop of trials added 9,112 participants to the total randomised denominator of 13,259 and showed that masks alone have no significant effect in interrupting the spread of ILI or influenza in the general population, nor in healthcare workers.

The design of these twelve trials differed: viral circulation was usually variable; none had been conducted during a pandemic. Outcomes were defined and reported in seven different ways, making comparison difficult. It is debatable whether any of these results could be applied to the transmission of SARs-CoV-2. Only one randomised trial (n=569) included cloth masks. This trial found ILI rates were 13 times higher in Vietnamese hospital workers allocated to cloth masks compared to medical/surgical masks, RR 13.25, (95%CI 1.74 to 100.97) and over three times higher when compared to no masks,* RR 3.49 (95%CI 1.00 to 12.17). 4

It would appear that despite two decades of pandemic preparedness, there is considerable uncertainty as to the value of wearing masks. For instance, high rates of infection with cloth masks could be due to harms caused by cloth masks, or benefits of medical masks. The numerous systematic reviews that have been recently published all include the same evidence base so unsurprisingly broadly reach the same conclusions. 2 However, recent reviews using lower quality evidence found masks to be effective. Whilst also recommending robust randomised trials to inform the evidence for these interventions. 5

Many countries have gone onto mandate masks for the public in various settings. Several others – Denmark, and Norway – generally do not. Norway’s Institute for Public Health reported that if masks did work then any difference in infection rates would be small when infection rates are low: assuming 20% asymptomatics and a risk reduction of 40% for wearing masks, 200 000 people would need to wear one to prevent one new infection per week. 6

[The text continues on to discuss the need for more trials, and lists presently-ongoing trials]
 

Yew

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Because social distancing is grim, harming mental health and damaging the economy. We have an opportunity to be able to stop it even before a vaccine, so why don't we?
Again, I don't think there's any empirical evidence that we can stop it without some form of herd immunity.
 

Yew

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Scotland and Wales appear to have come very close to doing so.

New Zealand has succeeded.
Perhaps there's a pause in their cases, but they're still surrounded and vulnerable to imported cases, I'm not sure the odds are good that they can keep up their streak until a vaccine arrives.
 

Bantamzen

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Because social distancing is grim, harming mental health and damaging the economy. We have an opportunity to be able to stop it even before a vaccine, so why don't we?

And I don't disagree with that first sentence, however the second I do not. The benefits of mask wearing is still under serious doubt, and their incorrect use could actually be a driving factor in the spread. We somehow managed to lower rates without them right up until the 23rd of this month, so what changed? Was the virus taking it easy on us, or was the mandating of coverings in shops just a political move, to give the impression of something being done? For a government its a simple win-win, it rates stay low masks work, if they go up just blame something else.

Scotland and Wales appear to have come very close to doing so.

New Zealand has succeeded.

None of this is true, its time to stop deluding yourself. We will not eradicate it, we have only ever done this to just two other viruses in our entire history. So stop peddling the idea that we can just sit it out.
 

Bletchleyite

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None of this is true, its time to stop deluding yourself. We will not eradicate it, we have only ever done this to just two other viruses in our entire history. So stop peddling the idea that we can just sit it out.

Do you deny that Scotland and Wales both have a very low caseload and that New Zealand has eliminated the virus?
 

adc82140

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Scotland and Wales appear to have come very close to doing so.

New Zealand has succeeded.

You quote Scotland as a gold standard. Yet Scotland still has a couple of hundred in hospital, but London has 87, the SW of England has 18. Scotland is testing a handful of thousand a day. England is testing 130000 on average. That's why Scotland appears to have very few cases.

Once again I'll say I don't give a stuff how many a day are testing positive anywhere. If fewer and fewer people are sick in hospital, I consider the situation under control.
 

kylemore

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Scotland and Wales appear to have come very close to doing so.

New Zealand has succeeded.
The fact that England has different criteria for what it calls a Covid death might have something to do with it - the idea a two week gap in introducing ineffective masks has anything to do with it is risible.
 

stj

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I went in Costco and a large Tesco yesterday and did not see any shoppers without a mask.I have to wear one at work and dont see it as a problem.
 

jtuk

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It's pretty easy to eliminate a virus if you have the population of Birmingham spread over a country the size of the UK that has nothing but sea for a thousand mile radius and you close your borders
 
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