UK face coverings discussion

[Bletchleyite]

Well if the people who think that we have herd immunity are right, then we can stop using them now?

They are almost certainly wrong. Simply because if we did, the number of cases would be falling rapidly. It's not, it's remaining constant now (with a bit of variance) and has done for a while now.

Deaths are still falling but they lag cases by about 3-4 weeks and they are starting to level off.

We need to get it going down again, and if masks can achieve that without e.g. reclosing the pubs, good.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They are almost certainly wrong. Simply because if we did, the number of cases would be falling rapidly. It's not, it's remaining constant now (with a bit of variance) and has done for a while now.

Deaths are still falling but they lag cases by about 3-4 weeks and they are starting to level off.

We need to get it going down again, and if masks can achieve that without e.g. reclosing the pubs, good.

7 day case average is running at c700/day for several weeks having been on a solid downward trend for previous two months. Currently its not translating into the levels of hospitalisations we saw months ago. In part that maybe due to the shielding of vulnerable people ie they aren't being exposed but also with testing at a much higher rate we are finding more people that previously weren't being detected who are showing they can deal with it. Furthermore across the last six weeks considerable relaxation has also taken place so potential transmission opportunities have increased but what our data doesn't show is whether any of these changes are driving cases increases or not. Belgium has reported that family gatherings and nightlife are having a direct impact on case increases so I hope Public Health teams are determining if this is a cause or not.

 

[Smidster]

It doesn't necessarily follow that X number of cases leads to Y hospitalisations and Z deaths.

In the UK, as with other countries, the average age of recorded cases has come down and we those groups have a lower hospitalisation rate. Equally as testing has become more widely available you are able to test more people whereas in March you were only testing the severe cases.

You might also find that due to things like social distancing or masks people aren't getting the same Viral Load they were at the start leading to less serious cases.

 

[MikeWM]

I disagree with that strongly.

If you think there is no evidence that telling people to stay at home reduces transmission, then I don't know what to say. I really don't.

You've misunderstood - I said 'apart from', though to be fair I do seem to have put the sentence together rather clumsily. I'm quite sure staying home when sick and washing hands are good ideas; the rest is rather more debatable.

 

[Huntergreed]

I was at the train station and onboard 2 TOC’s today, some observations of the problems that mandating masks causes:

Many people were not wearing them correctly (below the nose, around the chin), touching their face far, far more often, mtself included (I know I shouldn’t but it’s genuinely very uncomfortable and I have to adjust it every now and again).

BTP have a more intimidating presence and were questioning those without masks as to their exemption reasons (whether any enforcement or refusal of carriage happened, I’m not sure)

I heard a conversation about the masks today at the station and I heard someone say “young people can’t be exempt, if you’re under 50, there’s no excuses”, which is completely wrong.

6 households I know have bought a car and won’t be returning to public transport, they said they would have but with the uncomfortable masks they would rather drive and pay that little extra.

This mask law is certainly causing a lot of harm, whether it’s causing much “good” I’m not convinced, although I remain open to
evidence.

 

[AdamWW]

You've misunderstood - I said 'apart from', though to be fair I do seem to have put the sentence together rather clumsily. I'm quite sure staying home when sick and washing hands are good ideas; the rest is rather more debatable.

No I followed that.

But you seemed to be excluding the "staying home even if you don't think you're sick" part of the lockdown and I think we have pretty good evidence that plenty of people can be contagious without knowing it. I could have been a bit more clear myself.

Going back to masks, I think there is a reasonable chance that they help, despite all the reasons they might make things worse.

I think we can be fairly sure that they aren't such a panacea that they justify the heavy handed approach we seem to be getting at the moment.

I don't know about England but in Wales anyone under 11 is exempt. I wonder if they will be expected to provide proof of age?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know about England but in Wales anyone under 11 is exempt. I wonder if they will be expected to provide proof of age?

Asking someone their date of birth usually works quite well because if they're lying they usually fluff it. But in reality you can, if you give a bit of leeway, tell the difference between a kid and a teenager quite easily by looking.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I don't know about England but in Wales anyone under 11 is exempt. I wonder if they will be expected to provide proof of age?

It's the same in England, although it's under 5s who are exempt in Scotland. Not sure why they decided to be different.

I imagine the "I'm 5 but 4 when I go into a shop" game will be getting played.

 

[Huntergreed]

It's the same in England, although it's under 5s who are exempt in Scotland. Not sure why they decided to be different.

Because imposing a stricter measure in Scotland makes Sturgeon look “safer”, making her look better in the public eye and increasing her chance of re election next May I imagine.

I imagine the "I'm 5 but 4 when I go into a shop" game will be getting played.

I imagine the “I’m 11 but 10 when I go into a shop” game will be getting played, however I imagine this shouldn’t be too much of a concern, it’s not like the shop is losing any money due to this, and they may be exempt (although the legislation isn’t forgiving towards those who are)

 

[MikeWM]

No I followed that.

But you seemed to be excluding the "staying home even if you don't think you're sick" part of the lockdown and I think we have pretty good evidence that plenty of people can be contagious without knowing it. I could have been a bit more clear myself.

Ah, then you are right. As far as I can see, the evidence of asymptomatic transmission is slight and circumstantial. It is very far below the standard that should be required in order to lock millions of healthy people in their homes, destroying the economy and causing many other physical and mental health issues.

 

[bramling]

No I followed that.

But you seemed to be excluding the "staying home even if you don't think you're sick" part of the lockdown and I think we have pretty good evidence that plenty of people can be contagious without knowing it. I could have been a bit more clear myself.

Going back to masks, I think there is a reasonable chance that they help, despite all the reasons they might make things worse.

I think we can be fairly sure that they aren't such a panacea that they justify the heavy handed approach we seem to be getting at the moment.

I don't know about England but in Wales anyone under 11 is exempt. I wonder if they will be expected to provide proof of age?

I’d be happy with there being something along the lines of “we highly recommend you put on a mark if in an environment where you find you cannot effectively socially distance”.

That way you could then pull one out of the packet, wear it for as long as necessary, then dispose of it.

This would reduce a lot of the incorrect use at a stroke, as well as giving people the choice to avoid crowded places / times if that’s their preferred strategy.

 

[Pete_uk]

Went to my local big Tesco's yesterday at around half nine in the morning. There was one slightly pregnant woman not wearing a covering of any sort (apart from her clothes of course!) Most of he staff had masks or a visor on, even though one was being worn under the chin.

I did notice it was quieter than it has been recently. Maybe the school holidays are having an effect?

As for the town centre, it's getting back to the kind of numbers you would normally see. Lots of face masks under the chin as people walk about.

I have a thin motorcycle neck thing as does my mother who hated the cheap masks she brought the other day.

 

[adc82140]

I doubt there is a school holiday effect. The schools have effectively been on holiday since March.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would reduce a lot of the incorrect use at a stroke, as well as giving people the choice to avoid crowded places / times if that’s their preferred strategy.

As places where masks are required are generally crowded places, you can do that now.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’d be happy with there being something along the lines of “we highly recommend you put on a mark if in an environment where you find you cannot effectively socially distance”.

That way you could then pull one out of the packet, wear it for as long as necessary, then dispose of it.

This would reduce a lot of the incorrect use at a stroke, as well as giving people the choice to avoid crowded places / times if that’s their preferred strategy.

That wouldn't, indeed doesn't stop people fiddling, moving, re-positioning them between start and finish. Basically unless they are left completely untouched, and before & after they are hands are washed, they are medically speaking being worn incorrectly.

 

[ainsworth74]

Used the train twice yesterday for just over an hour each way. Most people seemed to be wearing a mask and doing so correctly. Whilst it wasn't exactly pleasant it wasn't an awful experience the main issue was my ears getting irritated by having pressure on them in an unusual way but that was easy to relieve by just lifting the loop from back of my ear (so taking the pressure on my finger for a few seconds and not removing the mask). I did finally experience a minor issue with breathing though which was interesting. I was rushing for the train home and found that I was having to take much deeper breaths than normal to get my breath back (whilst rushing down the street with no mask I was fine it was shortly after I put one on in the station I noticed that I was suddenly breathing much heavier). Not hyperventilating or in danger of passing out or other such nonsense that's been peddled in various quarters but that's the first time I've noticed an actual impact on breathing that actually led to some irritation and wanting to take the mask off.

In any event the whole experience was fairly positive and whilst I look forward to ditching masks in the meantime I don't mind having to wear one to help deal with Covid-19 and I don't think it will be masks that keep me from using trains.

 

[birchesgreen]

Used the train twice yesterday for just over an hour each way. Most people seemed to be wearing a mask and doing so correctly. Whilst it wasn't exactly pleasant it wasn't an awful experience the main issue was my ears getting irritated by having pressure on them in an unusual way but that was easy to relieve by just lifting the loop from back of my ear (so taking the pressure on my finger for a few seconds and not removing the mask). I did finally experience a minor issue with breathing though which was interesting. I was rushing for the train home and found that I was having to take much deeper breaths than normal to get my breath back (whilst rushing down the street with no mask I was fine it was shortly after I put one on in the station I noticed that I was suddenly breathing much heavier). Not hyperventilating or in danger of passing out or other such nonsense that's been peddled in various quarters but that's the first time I've noticed an actual impact on breathing that actually led to some irritation and wanting to take the mask off.

In any event the whole experience was fairly positive and whilst I look forward to ditching masks in the meantime I don't mind having to wear one to help deal with Covid-19 and I don't think it will be masks that keep me from using trains.

I've had issues with my ears too, though i find tucking my hair behind my ears and then putting the mask loop over that helps (obviously this only works if you look like a long haired hippy like me)

I might see if i can try a mask you can tie around the back of your head, as surgical masks are worn.

 

[talldave]

I doubt there is a school holiday effect. The schools have effectively been on holiday since March.

It's the having to wear masks effect. A lot of people stocked up last Thursday, and will probably do as few shopping trips as possible.

 

[greyman42]

Are masks mandatory on main line stations in England? I see signs been put up saying so, the next day they are taken down and then a couple of days later they re-appear. What's the score?

 

[causton]

Are masks mandatory on main line stations in England? I see signs been put up saying so, the next day they are taken down and then a couple of days later they re-appear. What's the score?

IIRC:
The first posters/signs were made before the laws were passed (as they were only passed one day before they came into effect I think?) and at the time there was a lot of uncertainty as to whether it meant in stations or just on trains.
Then it was clarified the law said just on trains.
Now, with it being mandatory in shops, enclosed areas of stations are coming into scope of the law.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Are masks mandatory on main line stations in England? I see signs been put up saying so, the next day they are taken down and then a couple of days later they re-appear. What's the score?

My understanding is that they're only compulsory in transport hubs and/or enclosed public spaces. So - to use Leeds as an example - if you're on the main indoor concourse then you should wear a mask but if you're on the platforms you don't need to. This does of course depend on how you interpret "enclosed".

 

[Huntergreed]

Are masks mandatory on main line stations in England? I see signs been put up saying so, the next day they are taken down and then a couple of days later they re-appear. What's the score?

Officially the legislation states:

(4) In these Regulations, “transport hub” means any enclosed part of premises used as a station, terminal, port or other similar premises from or to which a public transport service operates, but does not include—

(a)an area which is not open to the public;

(b)an area where seating or tables are made available for the consumption of food and drink;

(c)a part of such premises if it is in itself a premises mentioned in paragraph 1(1)(a) to (c) of the Schedule; or

(d)a part of such a premises if it itself a premises listed in Part 2 of the Schedule.

Paragragh 1 states:

(1) In these Regulations—

“enclosed shopping centre” means a building containing shops having frontages to an arcade or mall or other covered circulation area;

“face covering” means a covering of any type which covers a person’s nose and mouth;

“goods” means any tangible moveable item;

“public transport service” has the meaning given in regulation 2(2) of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020(2);

“relevant person” has the meaning given in regulation 5(9);

“relevant place” means—

(a)
a place listed in Part 1 of the Schedule; or
(b)
a transport hub;
“shop” has the meaning given in paragraph (2);

“TfL”, “TfL officer” and “TfL public transport service” have the meanings given in regulation 5;

“transport hub” has the meaning given in paragraph (4).

And paragraph 2 states

(2) In these Regulations, “shop” means any building, room or other indoor establishment which is open to the public in whole or in part and is used wholly or mainly for the purposes of retail sale or hire of goods or services, but not including the premises listed in Part 2 of the Schedule.

So this means that masks are mandatory on station platforms, concourses and shops (and this includes outdoor platforms, as they are technically part of a 'transport hub), but not in station cafes or restaurants.

Source: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/made

 

[CaptainHaddock]

So this means that masks are mandatory on station platforms, concourses and shops (and this includes outdoor platforms, as they are technically part of a 'transport hub), but not in station cafes or restaurants.

Source: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/made

There I must disagree with you. A "transport hub" to me means something like a bus/train interchange, not a train station. Would you class Berney Arms station as a "transport hub" for example?

Also an outdoor platform can't be classed as an enclosed public space; if it was "enclosed" how would the trains get in and out?

 

[AdamWW]

There I must disagree with you. A "transport hub" to me means something like a bus/train interchange, not a train station. Would you class Berney Arms station as a "transport hub" for example?

Also an outdoor platform can't be classed as an enclosed public space; if it was "enclosed" how would the trains get in and out?

I suspect that - in the minds of those drafting the legislation - Berney Arms does count, even though it's not how you or I would use the term.

 

[Huntergreed]

There I must disagree with you. A "transport hub" to me means something like a bus/train interchange, not a train station. Would you class Berney Arms station as a "transport hub" for example?

Also an outdoor platform can't be classed as an enclosed public space; if it was "enclosed" how would the trains get in and out?

I can't say I disagree with your point, indeed I think it's entirely illogical to class these places as a transport hub and to enforce mask-wearing on them! The legislation however does say that a transport hub is anywhere that a public transport service arrives or departs from apart from staff only areas and cafes/restaurants on stations.

Technically if you were to follow this to the letter, this would mean that if you walked through a bus stop, you would legally be required to put on a mask to do so!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Technically if you were to follow this to the letter, this would mean that if you walked through a bus stop, you would legally be required to put on a mask to do so!

De minimis non curat lex.
(The law does not concern itself with trifles)

 

[AdamWW]

I can't say I disagree with your point, indeed I think it's entirely illogical to class these places as a transport hub and to enforce mask-wearing on them! The legislation however does say that a transport hub is anywhere that a public transport service arrives or departs from apart from staff only areas and cafes/restaurants on stations.

Technically if you were to follow this to the letter, this would mean that if you walked through a bus stop, you would legally be required to put on a mask to do so!

Yes you have to check definitions in legislation.

I once got caught out because I didn't notice that "days" had been defined to mean "school days".
Even though the legislation sometimes used the phrase "days" and sometimes "school days", implying a difference between the two.
But no.

(Not just legislation - I once missed a line in a set of technical requirements that defined "horizontal" as vertical and vice versa...)

 

[talldave]

Also an outdoor platform can't be classed as an enclosed public space; if it was "enclosed" how would the trains get in and out?

Obviously by queuing 2m apart and following the one way system!!

 

[Huntergreed]

Obviously by queuing 2m apart and following the one way system!!

I think having trains run only 2m apart would cause greater issues than just risking spreading the virus! (and isn't the whole railway technically a collection of one way systems?)

 

[45107]

Technically if you were to follow this to the letter, this would mean that if you walked through a bus stop, you would legally be required to put on a mask to do so!

Off topic. I believe that that applies ifor ‘no-smoking in public places’ (or whatever the correct terminology for the legislation is).