UK face coverings discussion

[AdamWW]

Without a scientific trial (even if a double blind trial won't be possible, a randomised trial should be) in a non-medical setting, masks shouldn't have been mandated, particularly in settings that had been open with the vast majority of people not wearing masks until it was mandated, for the length of the pandemic.

A large scale randomised trial would be difficult, I'd have thought, since the principle to be tested is that masks reduce transmission from an individual.

So we can't allocate everyone in Manchester to be a mask wearer or non-wearer and see if they are more or likely to be infected.

We'd have to compare different places (so how do we compare?) or look at different times (but again other things are likely to have changed).

Difficult.

Does that justify just telling everyone to get on and wear one? Not sure.

 

[greyman42]

Do you not think that that might just possibly be because they did so wearing the correct PPE at all times?



It is my business if someone else puts me at risk of catching COVID because they can't be bothered to comply with the law (as distinct from if they have a valid exemption). Just like it's my business if people drive in a dangerous manner, because that puts me at risk, not just them.

Obviously there is a grey area, but groups of multiple twentysomething lads are very unlikely all to be exempt nor to all live in the same household.

I was referring to people pulling the handle just because someone was not wearing a mask. The fact that they are not wearing a mask is nobody elses business.

 

[AdamWW]

So what you're saying is that all the NHS workers who did catch it weren't wearing any PPE or didn't know how to wear it?

I assumed the suggestion was that wearing PPE reduces the chance of transmission, and therefore can't be compared to the situation where people aren't wearing it.

 

[packermac]

Given that there are so few stories about people with long-term problems from it, it seems reasonable to assume that they are rare.

Well for something that has not yet been around for a year what is your definition of a long term problem? They may well have not shown up yet.

 

[Richard Scott]

I assumed the suggestion was that wearing PPE reduces the chance of transmission, and therefore can't be compared to the situation where people aren't wearing it.

It was reference to people who I knew working in the NHS with COVID patients didn't get the illness and one I know tested negative for antibodies. The statement was then hijacked as a pro PPE comment - not what it was intended for, it was to highlight the fact that not everyone will get it even when working closely with it, same with any illness.

 

[DB]

Well for something that has not yet been around for a year what is your definition of a long term problem? They may well have not shown up yet.

Given that coronavirus of this type are not new, the medical profession is likely to have spotted any pending problems by now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you’re that worried I’d suggest simply moving away from them. For goodness sake don’t operate a passcom (I’m not sure whether you’re actually advocating that, but it’s a very bad idea!)

No, I'm not advocating using a passcom, but if genuinely concerned then reporting the matter to the Guard, where present, is sensible.

 

[AdamWW]

No, I'm not advocating using a passcom, but if genuinely concerned then reporting the matter to the Guard, where present, is sensible.

Assuming you can actually get to the guard without goint into part of the train currently prohibited to passengers....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming you can actually get to the guard without goint into part of the train currently prohibited to passengers....

There is that.

I'm not suggesting going around reporting all and sundry, but groups of lads drinking alcohol, not wearing masks and not distancing do actually pose an elevated risk to all on board (because they are disproportionately likely to be carriers as they are not taking care). I encountered a situation like this on Saturday, and if the train hadn't been DOO I would definitely have spoken to the guard. (Not least because they asked me where First Class was, and when I said there wasn't any on that train expressed disappointment that it wasn't there as they were going to sit there without paying!)

 

[43066]

No, I'm not advocating using a passcom, but if genuinely concerned then reporting the matter to the Guard, where present, is sensible.

Keep in mind that rail staff are not in a position to enforce this rule, either, and indeed have been instructed not to.

Many people are exempt from the requirement, so seeing someone who isn’t wearing a mask is not prima facie evidence of law breaking, in the way that someone smoking on board would be.

I’d suggest the most sensible thing to do is to is to either ignore it, or simply move away if you’re uncomfortable. It seems a strange thing to be concerned about given how low case numbers are, and assuming you’re not high risk (in which case, consider avoiding public transport!).

 

[trebor79]

Face masks now mandated outdoors in parts of France, and the German education minister is urging local authorities to mandate them in schools.
If these sorts of measures come to the UK I'm going to be very upset. What a horrible world to live in.

 

[AdamWW]

Face masks now mandated outdoors in parts of France, and the German education minister is urging local authorities to mandate them in schools.
If these sorts of measures come to the UK I'm going to be very upset. What a horrible world to live in.

If we can't get many (the majority?) of adults to handle face masks properly, I'm not entirely sure how that's going to work for school age children.

 

[Domh245]

I'd love for someone to persuade me that outdoors mask use is nothing other than "being seen to do something"

 

[AdamWW]

I'd love for someone to persuade me that outdoors mask use is nothing other than "being seen to do something"

A slightly less cynical view would be that it's a desparate attempt to do something to prevent infections from climbing without have to reverse any of the current restrictions nationally.

 

[Richard Scott]

Face masks now mandated outdoors in parts of France, and the German education minister is urging local authorities to mandate them in schools.
If these sorts of measures come to the UK I'm going to be very upset. What a horrible world to live in.

The only positive thing about this is that other governments are as bonkers as ours.

 

[trebor79]

I'd love for someone to persuade me that outdoors mask use is nothing other than "being seen to do something"

A slightly less cynical view would be that it's a desparate attempt to do something to prevent infections from climbing without have to reverse any of the current restrictions nationally.

Oh indeed it's absurd. There is absolutely zero chance I will cover my face walking round the village, or exploring the woods with my son.
But we seem to be living in absurd times, unfortunately.

 

[A Challenge]

The only positive thing about this is that other governments are as bonkers as ours

How is that in the slightest bit positive? If other countries do it, Boris will be under more pressure to change the rules?

 

[Richard Scott]

How is that in the slightest bit positive? If other countries do it, Boris will be under more pressure to change the rules?

True! Just shows we're not the only country with people in power who think the virus is the only thing that matters and it must be stopped at any cost.

 

[43066]

it's just yet another aspect of antisocial behaviour by people in their teens and twenties on public transport that puts people off using it and really does need much stronger enforcement in general.

Seriously, it's not a scally estate pub, and it's unacceptable to treat it as if it was even without COVID - this is just another layer of unacceptability to that sort of on-board behaviour.

Perhaps it should be 61016 then. I've seen something that doesn't look right.

I agree people getting rip-roaring drunk on trains is socially unacceptable, but unfortunately that’s the society we live in these days. It’s also unacceptable for people to listen to music on loudspeakers, yet that happens on a daily basis. It’s irritating, but it’s hardly illegal.

The 61016 “something doesn’t look right” thing, is more to do with terrorism. I’d also caution against going down the route of seeing people doing something you don’t personally approve of and thinking “oh, and they aren’t wearing a mask”, and then involving BTP where you wouldn’t have done so pre Covid.

It’s trivial in the grand scheme of things, and I can pretty much guarantee they won’t be interested. From personal experience, they won’t even turn up when someone reports a mugging.

 

[A Challenge]

The 61016 “something doesn’t look right” thing, is more to do with terrorism. I’d also caution going down the route of seeing people doing something you don’t personally approve of and thinking “oh, and they aren’t wearing a mask”, and then

People didn't care about mask wearing before (and some still don't) and it wasn't mandatory, which is why they didn't call the BTP on it, do it seems a strange thing to say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we can't get many (the majority?) of adults to handle face masks properly, I'm not entirely sure how that's going to work for school age children.

Probably better. Children are used to, and are good at, doing as they are told. Adults aren't and tend to be a lot more rebellious.

 

[AdamWW]

Probably better. Children are used to, and are good at, doing as they are told. Adults aren't and tend to be a lot more rebellious.

They might be more obedient at actually wearing them. At remembering not to fiddle with them? Doubtful I'd say from my experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree people getting rip-roaring drunk on trains is socially unacceptable, but unfortunately that’s the society we live in these days. It’s also unacceptable for people to listen to music on loudspeakers, yet that happens on a daily basis. It’s irritating, but it’s hardly illegal.

It's absolutely a Byelaw offence, and it grates that staff walk past it ignoring it rather than saying something about it being unacceptable, even in the quiet coach.

Though it's rather different to people failing to take COVID precautions. I have told people to turn devices off in the quiet coach before, usually to non-quiet applause from other passengers, and I'll do it again, and press charges in the event of it turning into anything even vaguely like an assault. However, approaching unmasked twentysomething lads runs the risk of (a) catching COVID, or (b) getting a thump. I would like the railway to provide the security provision to prevent me having to put myself at that risk to keep myself appropriately safe and to ensure the law is complied with.

We need something like Germany's BSG - a proper security provision on the railway with trained railway professionals, not just cheapo rentathugs and inadequate BTP, neither of which are adequate to ensure compliance with the "comfort" Byelaws or indeed law with regard to COVID. But that's probably one for another thread.

 

[trebor79]

If we can't get many (the majority?) of adults to handle face masks properly, I'm not entirely sure how that's going to work for school age children.

Probably better. Children are used to, and are good at, doing as they are told. Adults aren't and tend to be a lot more rebellious.

That's not the point. We know that children are at essentially zero risk from COVID, and there's significant evidence which says they tend not to pass it on to adults either.
So what's the point of enforcing a horrible learning environment for them?
It's dystopian. In no way do I want my kids to grow up thinking this nonsense is "normal".

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not the point. We know that children are at essentially zero risk from COVID, and there's significant evidence which says they tend not to pass it on to adults either.

There was, but now there's evidence of them carring huge amounts of viral load - 100x a typical adult, if I recall correctly from the article, though I forget where I read it.

We cannot assume they are safe yet. If it's proven conclusively that they are, it can indeed be relaxed - but I doubt that applies to twentysomethings!

 

[43066]

People didn't care about mask wearing before (and some still don't) and it wasn't mandatory, which is why they didn't call the BTP on it, do it seems a strange thing to say.

A sense of perspective is needed and, not for the first time, is rather lacking on here! Do you call 999 every time you see someone drop a piece of litter, or park on a double yellow line?

 

[furlong]

Yes if it were a toss-up between a scientist / lawyer versus a journalist, I know who I would want to be handling this, and it wouldn’t be the journalist! The extent to which he is out of his depth is pitiful.

I can’t imagine her advocating a policy like masks without there being some pretty positive evidence in favour.

Even commentators in The Daily Telegraph are increasingly taking up the theme. Toby Young

Never mind squeezing the brakes – the PM's lockdown strategy is a car crash
He has simultaneously executed a U-turn, pressed the accelerator and performed an emergency stop
...
It seems the Prime Minister was too busy conjugating Greek and Latin verbs at Eton to pay any attention in maths.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A sense of perspective is needed and, not for the first time, is rather lacking on here! Do you call 999 every time you see someone drop a piece of litter, or park on a double yellow line?

While I welcome stricter enforcement of the filthy habit that is littering (just don't do it, there is and can be no excuse), I think the issue of spreading COVID is that little bit more serious.

Anyone dropping a tissue at present certainly deserves the full force of the law.

 

[LowLevel]

I agree people getting rip-roaring drunk on trains is socially unacceptable, but unfortunately that’s the society we live in these days. It’s also unacceptable for people to listen to music on loudspeakers, yet that happens on a daily basis. It’s irritating, but it’s hardly illegal.

The 61016 “something doesn’t look right” thing, is more to do with terrorism. I’d also caution against going down the route of seeing people doing something you don’t personally approve of and thinking “oh, and they aren’t wearing a mask”, and then involving BTP where you wouldn’t have done so pre Covid.

It’s trivial in the grand scheme of things, and I can pretty much guarantee they won’t be interested. From personal experience, they won’t even turn up when someone reports a mugging.

To be fair playing music and getting rip roaring drunk on trains are both illegal and I've removed/had removed people from trains for both.

61016 is a discrete reporting mechanism for railway crime that is helpful when you feel you may be subject to reprisal from people you can't get away from inside a train for calling for help. Personal experience is that BTP are better at responding to it in an appropriate way (either logging persistent issues or by getting a constable to contact you directly, immediately) than through the control centre. Non wearing of masks being discretely reported by some busy body is not helpful though I can't say it is necessarily outright "wrong", as the guard I prefer to be first port of call for these problems rather than having the police turn up unannounced.

I am quite happy to deal with any or all of the above but it is amazing how persistent low level antisocial behaviour can lead you to, on reporting it, collar some right scumbags wanted for all sorts of interesting things.

 

[trebor79]

There was, but now there's evidence of them carring huge amounts of viral load - 100x a typical adult, if I recall correctly from the article, though I forget where I read it.

We cannot assume they are safe yet. If it's proven conclusively that they are, it can indeed be relaxed - but I doubt that applies to twentysomethings!

South Korean contact tracing didn't find a single example of a child being the source of infection in an adult.
Serious illness and death rates for children from COVID are vanishingly small. There was an extensive article in Private Eye a few weeks ago. They are more at risk of being seriously injured or killed by being run over.